To briefly catch everyone up, W and I and D5 and S1 lived in Europe doing NGO/mission work and she dropped the bomb in July. 2 months of pleading, trying to "diagnose" her (me) and panic attacks and extreme anxiety (her) and other stuff followed before we decided to move back Stateside.
One of us needed to fly back there to wrap things up and pack, and we decided W would do it. So she has been gone the last two weeks.
W flew in today and I picked her up at the airport. In the hour drive home from O'Hare, she didn't stop talking about her trip, our friends she saw, the experiencing of packing our stuff, etc. etc. She was very talkative and it was a peaceful ride home.
On the way to pick her up, I was debating between reaching in for a hug when she arrived, or even asking her, "If you would choose to allow it, I would love to hug you because it is really good to see you." But as I pulled into the parking lot, I decided to do neither. I thought that if it were rejected, that would set a bad tone. I also thought about the non-pursuit thing. Decided to be a good DBer.
(I still am debating this non-pursuit in my heart because I don't know whether to go LRT or do the more "be present and loving" 180s since W is still living with us, and since there is no A to my knowledge. But at any rate, it made sense with the hug decision).
So when I saw her coming from customs, I just waved and she saw me. When she approached, she reached out and hugged me and said, "It's good to see you." I responded with the same, made a few jokes and then thanked her because she brought my guitar as a carry-on instead of shipping it sea-rate which is how most of our stuff is coming.
Then the whole way home she was casual and talkative. I barely initiated at all, but I was as good a listener as possible while driving home in rush hour. I just mentioned a few things about how excited our D5 is to see her, and empathized with her as she explained some of the shipping difficulties.
So I am thankful I didn't reach in for the hug
I know none of this might mean anything for the R, but at the very least it made for a peaceful evening.
s4tk
_________________________ Me: 37 W: 37 M: 11 D:5 S:2 IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13 EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13 W moved out 05/14
Journaling. I am finding something is going right because I am able to empathize with W. I'm going through an internal process of taking inventory, and figuring out the 180s more specifically.
As I do that, I am beginning to agree with W that our marriage could be a lot better. I don't mean during the 4 months now since bomb drop (Let's face it, these four months I would rate our M as a "1" on a 0-10 scale, and the 1 is simply because she hasn't actually left yet and we seem to be co-parenting OK). But what I mean is that before BD, I probably would have said a 7 or 8, sometimes even a 9. Even the first 3 months since BD, I might have said the same. But this last month, something is changing. I am seeing that maybe my reality was not quite reality. Maybe the M was a 5 - and if I can say 5, then it gives me the ability to understand W if she felt it was 5 or even lower.
This gives me the ability to do several things easier.
1) Allows me to work on me better, and to detach.
2) Allows me to act "as if" better.
Wondering how else this helps me. I feel it's huge.
_________________________ Me: 37 W: 37 M: 11 D:5 S:2 IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13 EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13 W moved out 05/14
Since she returned from her trip 3 days ago, things have been calm. We have joked together, she thoroughly briefed me on her trip - without me asking or initiating.
She falls asleep in the early evening (8-9pm). She blames the jet lag, but sleep has been an issue for her for months, even before BD.
Anyhow, I am still worried that since one of my marital defects was emotional disconnection, detaching and pulling away (even lovingly) might be misconstrued. I have considered telling her something like the following, during some well-timed moment of connection:
"W, I respect that you feel done, and that you are unhappy. I am focused on working on things I want to improve in my life, and on giving you time and space to live your life right now without pressure. One of the things you have shared with me is the emotional disconnect and that we didn't do a good job of truly connecting. I understand how you feel that way, and have been reflecting on it myself. Because I don't want you to feel controlled or pressured or manipulated, I feel that giving you space is important. But I want you to know that if and when you are willing, I am willing to spend time with you - having fun, talking about life, getting to know each other again."
And then I thought to suggest to her that whenever she feels willing to engage, she could message me a :P emoticon or some code word or something.
This would make me feeling better about GALing and lovingly detaching and 180ing since she will not miscontrue any of that as more of the same. It also seems like it would empower her.
Just as a reminder, she has said much of the classic WAW script, but 4 months after BD she is still living with us and we have both avoided R talks for about 2 months. Also, to my knowledge there is no real A going on.
I'm on the fence with this idea. Thumbs up? Thumbs down?
_________________________ Me: 37 W: 37 M: 11 D:5 S:2 IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13 EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13 W moved out 05/14
I would continue without sending her that letter or telling her that. I would not bring up R talks. "IF" she does at some point, then that might be OK to say.
Try not to let the excitement of a positive change your course or speed.
Look at what you said about waiting for her to offer the hug, it was worth the wait.
Keep doing what you are, it is hard not to want more and push for reassurance.
M46,W41 D16,D18 M22,T25 BD 11/12 W moved out 01/13 Piecing 10/13 Divorced 01/15 "Whether you worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can." UrWorthy
Anyhow, I am still worried that since one of my marital defects was emotional disconnection, detaching and pulling away (even lovingly) might be misconstrued. I have considered telling her something like the following, during some well-timed moment of connection:
"W, I respect that you feel done, and that you are unhappy. I am focused on working on things I want to improve in my life, and on giving you time and space to live your life right now without pressure. One of the things you have shared with me is the emotional disconnect and that we didn't do a good job of truly connecting. I understand how you feel that way, and have been reflecting on it myself. Because I don't want you to feel controlled or pressured or manipulated, I feel that giving you space is important. But I want you to know that if and when you are willing, I am willing to spend time with you - having fun, talking about life, getting to know each other again."
I get it but a definite thumbs down and most of the reason why is here: This would make me feeling better about GALing and lovingly detaching and 180ing since she will not miscontrue any of that as more of the same. It also seems like it would empower her.
It's all about you. Yes there's a bit in there about her but you can't empower another person, to attempt yo do so is a bit controlling.
I know that this is a tough concept for most of us but as Mach often says, you can't talk your way out of something you acted your way into. Actions, actions, actions. Work on you everyday until all those changes don't even feel like changes, she'll notice. You can't predict now they will affect her but she will notice.
She wants detachment from you right now, so in detaching you're respecting her and her needs but that doesn't mean you treat her like a leper. Have you read the livestrong emotional detachment list? If not, google it. W should have emotional detachment from those we love no matter the state of our R.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
So I caught up with your other thread and WOW! there is no doubt, you like to control things.
Let your W do what she needs to do through this, you can still love her but you have a lot of work to do before she will believe that you have fundamentally changed. Ad, as usual, gave you some very good advice.
My concern is everything you do sounds tactical, directed at your W to get her to change by seeing you differently. Not that you are different but you want to seem that you are.
Even tho she said nothing for 11 years it doesn't mean it wasn't an issue. My guess would be that she did say things, but you brushed them off as not important. Dig deep in your memory, anything there?
I'd like to see your thread focus more on you and less on your W.
Goals, GAL???
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
So I caught up with your other thread and WOW! there is no doubt, you like to control things.
Let your W do what she needs to do through this, you can still love her but you have a lot of work to do before she will believe that you have fundamentally changed. Ad, as usual, gave you some very good advice.
My concern is everything you do sounds tactical, directed at your W to get her to change by seeing you differently. Not that you are different but you want to seem that you are.
Even tho she said nothing for 11 years it doesn't mean it wasn't an issue. My guess would be that she did say things, but you brushed them off as not important. Dig deep in your memory, anything there?
I'd like to see your thread focus more on you and less on your W.
Goals, GAL???
Labug - thank you for your input. I get what you are saying, but aren't DB and DR (to a certain extent) "tactical" books/ideas designed to improve ourselves, which may lead to the spouse changing as well, and thus potentially save our M's?
Therefore, detaching would be the idea that even though this ^^^ is our desire and our goal, we will be happy no matter what the other decides because they are autonomous individuals capable of their own decisions, solutions, etc?
I had read the livestrong detachment page a week or two ago, but just read it again at your suggestion.
I am thinking about control a lot, and some examples of what that might look like. For example, a few months before BD, W had decided to delete her Facebook account. She actually did it. I, not knowing she could reverse the decision for up to a month (Facebook rules), was a little annoyed with her doing it without telling me because we worked for the same organization, and keeping connected to others through FB was important for our fundraising efforts. When she found out about my annoyance, she reinstated her account.
We didn't mention it since. I guess I can fathom the idea of it as control, but I think control is such a hard thing to define. Even DR has a step called, "Ask for what you want." What is the difference? Where does it become control?
That said, I do agree with MUCH of what W has brought up in terms of emotional disconnection, being too unavailable to her, etc. But the control thing is taking a while for me to get to the root.
_________________________ Me: 37 W: 37 M: 11 D:5 S:2 IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13 EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13 W moved out 05/14
"W, I respect that you feel done, and that you are unhappy. I am focused on working on things I want to improve in my life, and on giving you time and space to live your life right now without pressure. One of the things you have shared with me is the emotional disconnect and that we didn't do a good job of truly connecting. I understand how you feel that way, and have been reflecting on it myself. Because I don't want you to feel controlled or pressured or manipulated, I feel that giving you space is important. But I want you to know that if and when you are willing, I am willing to spend time with you - having fun, talking about life, getting to know each other again."
The very act of saying this is applying pressure. Plus, the reason we constantly preach actions and not words around here is the WAS will ALWAYS interpret your words in the worst possible way. Let's break it down:
W, I respect that you feel done, and that you are unhappy.
One, you respect her by keeping your mouth shut. Two, don't pretend to know how she feels (unhappy), it's disrespectful to her REAL feelings, whatever they may be (and you don't know unless she tells you). She may be angry with you that day, and if you call her "unhappy" she'll think "he doesn't get it, as usual."
I am focused on working on things I want to improve in my life, and on giving you time and space to live your life right now without pressure.
She'll hear "hurry up W!!! I can't keep this charade up forever!!!"
Because I don't want you to feel controlled or pressured or manipulated, I feel that giving you space is important.
She DOESN'T CARE what you feel. YOU need to care about what your WIFE feels! Ironically you make giving space sound like control and manipulation. IE, "I don't want you to feel manipulated, so I'm doing X to manipulate you into not feeling manipulated. And now I'm telling you because I'm not sure you noticed."
But I want you to know that if and when you are willing, I am willing to spend time with you - having fun, talking about life, getting to know each other again."
Captain Obvious is obvious. She knows this, you don't need to tell her. That's pressure.
Quote:
And then I thought to suggest to her that whenever she feels willing to engage, she could message me a :P emoticon or some code word or something.
I wish there was a facepalm smiley, this would be a good time to use it, LOL!
Seriously though, when you see positive signs like you've seen, what does that tell you? That what you've been doing is WORKING. So keep doing it! You're falling into the typical LBS trap- you see baby steps so think it's time for a bold move. But your wife is thinking "he is FINALLY giving me time and space, maybe he's not so bad after all." Then you get into an R talk and she thinks "aha, yeah, I knew it, same old controlling manipulator trying to get what HE wants."
