How to convince resistant LD wife?

[Ambivalent]

Thank you Mr. Bond .

I appreciate your time and attention.

[Ambivalent]

SSMG,

Well today was an interesting interaction with my H.

I told him I wanted to talk about something and it may not be comfortable for him.

I asked where we were with "dating" and casual sex. What were his thoughts.

His reply was that while he is "meeting" people he is not engaged in sex. He is taking care of himself. He didn't feel comfortable leading anyone on, since we are still married.

He didn't want to keep me from any activity. I said I just wanted to know in case I want to jump your bones, would I need protection? He smirked/grinned giggled and did not say he didn't desire me. I said I had been reading and researching and let him know I was interested. Not pushy, just in a flirty kind of way. Let him know I was wearing different undergarments and how they made me feel.
His eyes flashed and he said "GOOD!" in a higher pitched tone.

When he was in the bathroom a Julie, called and that I wanted us to be open and honest in our communications. He agreed, and again said he didn't want to lead "anyone" on. Went into too much detail about how he felt about engaging in casual sex or getting involved, that he was meeting different people...MIND READING ALERT...I

I don't believe a word he says, which is sad, because it was a very calm, matter of fact type of conversational tone from me.

So anyhoo, I took your advice and put myself out there, let him know.

As he was getting ready to leave, I got a quick body scan. He came over and kissed me...I lingered and lightly sucked on his lower lip. His response was "troublemaker" in a playful and flirty tone. He left in a good mood...

What's your take?

[ssmguy]

His reply was that while he is "meeting" people he is not engaged in sex. He is taking care of himself. He didn't feel comfortable leading anyone on, since we are still married.

Almost sounds like he believes in old fashioned values. Better to not tell him there are women out there today who are perfectly happy just having sex as friends with no expectations of it leading anywhere.

He didn't want to keep me from any activity. I said I just wanted to know in case I want to jump your bones, would I need protection? He smirked/grinned giggled and did not say he didn't desire me.

That was a clever thing to say! You find out something you might need to know, and at the same time it implies you think he might be a stud and a player out there. Great ego boost for a guy going through a MLC. That's probably why he didn't feel the need to knock you down with another silly "I don't desire you" comment.

When he was in the bathroom a Julie, called and that I wanted us to be open and honest in our communications.

Did this sentence get chopped? A "Julie" called when he was in the bathroom, and then you told him you wanted him to be open and honest?

As he was getting ready to leave, I got a quick body scan. He came over and kissed me...I lingered and lightly sucked on his lower lip. His response was "troublemaker" in a playful and flirty tone. He left in a good mood...

I'd say you buttered him up pretty well and he's feeling good. Probably means a lot to him in his MLC. But unfortunately, an MLC is all about himself and how he feels. Not much room there for how others feel. It's my impression that he now feels he's got you on the ready and maybe some others out there too. So he feels like he's pretty hot and desirable. But he clearly finds you attractive too, though he's trying hard not to admit it.

It's the sort of situation that I think often eventually has the man coming back to you as he sees that the glitter out there is fleeting and empty, and he comes to realize that the long-term bonds he has with you mean more. But you can't easily talk a man out of a MLC. Many of them actually have to go through the process of getting the red sports car and the young girlfriend. But eventually the girl dumps him and he gets bored with the car.

Well, that's my take anyway.

[Ambivalent]

Did this sentence get chopped? A "Julie" called when he was in the bathroom, and then you told him you wanted him to be open and honest?

Kind of. She texted while we were chatting ,so I thought I'd let him know I knew she called. I said we should be open and honest. He said he was "meeting" new people. Not really saying anything. He evaded sharing anything about her, and I didn't ask." ...so who's Julie? "
He's also said he hasn't been on any dates, and now he isn't have any sex...why doesn't he just be honest?

I'd say you buttered him up pretty well and he's feeling good. Probably means a lot to him in his MLC. But unfortunately, an MLC is all about himself and how he feels. Not much room there for how others feel. It's my impression that he now feels he's got you on the ready and maybe some others out there too. So he feels like he's pretty hot and desirable. But he clearly finds you attractive too, though he's trying hard not to admit it.

Interesting.

Almost sounds like he believes in old fashioned values. Better to not tell him there are women out there today who are perfectly happy just having sex as friends with no expectations of it leading anywhere.

I don't know if he's old fashioned or not, but he knows there are women who'll just hook up. He may just be saying it to appease his conscience.

It's the sort of situation that I think often eventually has the man coming back to you as he sees that the glitter out there is fleeting and empty, and he comes to realize that the long-term bonds he has with you mean more.

Oh if this were true. Julie could also be a business woman around our age, and looking for a relationship too! I sure wish I didn't see the call. Unfortunately he plugged the phone in the room/closet where I was right there. I didn't even need to touch the phone...it just popped up. S I G H

.

Many of them actually have to go through the process of getting the red sports car and the young girlfriend. But eventually the girl dumps him and he gets bored with the car.

No extra money for the sports car...but he'll find money for the sex. I'm glad he's coming for Thanksgiving.

Going to look as nice as possible and create a warm and fun evening .

[ssmguy]

I'm glad he's coming for Thanksgiving.
Going to look as nice as possible and create a warm and fun evening .

A thought experiment: What if you told him you're going out with another man and you're going to spend Thanksgiving with the other man and so you would need to schedule him to come over another time? What would he say?

Not suggesting that you do this. Just curious what you think he'd say.

[melissag]

Ambivalent, if you're still there, I'd like to know what convinced you to work on your problem? I assume you were somewhat like my wife. It's hard for me to understand how my wife thinks because I've been HD my whole adult and teenage life. The best I can tell, my wife sees my interest as an obsession with something that has no practical value, and is only a sort of internal-meditative selfish pleasure experience. At this point, her approach to my sexuality is more like, well, do whatever you need to do, just don't cause some huge embarrassment or complicate our lives. What's the hook that will work for her? How do you convince a person who sees no reason to even want to want?

At this point, I simply don't know what more I can do. I really have tried just about everything. Almost every suggestion I get is something I've already tried. It's with mixed feelings that I read of other couples who seem to be in my situation, including couples described in MWD's book on sexless marriages, who then go on to solve the problem. But at this point I'm convinced that these accounts leave out the failure cases. Understandably, if you're trying to solve a problem, who wants to read about people who tried and failed?

So, right off the bat, let's be clear that my case is one which is not solved with the simple love life advice given in virtually every magazine at the checkout counter. Lighting scented candles and drawing a warm bath does not work. A romantic evening at a fine restaurant with good conversation, handholding, and even kissing -- doesn't work. A nice getaway vacation for just the two of us -- doesn't work. She enjoys all those things, but it doesn't make her one bit more interested in sex. Not at all.

Also, I'm not interested in threatening divorce in order to get sex. That doesn't really work and doesn't establish the kind of relationship I want anyway. And in my case, even that wouldn't work.

Finally, I understand that I can just "move on", as I have been advised many times. I'm smart enough to realize that option is always there -- that takes no thinking whatsoever.

ssmguy, sorry to intrude on the convo here, but wondered if maybe I could help? I am normally on the newcomers forum but was perusing the other forums during an insomnia attack last night and saw your posts.

I don't know much about your W or the specifics. I'm not even sure what exactly makes someone LD or HD. I do know that for women, sex is only a small part physical, and mostly emotional. My H and I are separated right now, and a large factor was lack of intimacy - I had no idea how painful it really was for him until he announced his intention to D me. I simply did not accept that sex was important to him to maintain our connection - I thought of it as just wanting to get off, being self-indulgent, etc. Every time he complained of not enough sex, I felt more and more like that's all I was good for; like he didn't value me for other reasons. It became blown way out of proportion because we handled it all wrong. It was to the point that he actually thought I didn't even want sex at all (Wrong.) I wouldn't even say that I am an LD person; I just didn't feel emotionally safe in the relationship to engage in that much intimacy. We didn't understand each other, and it was a vicious cycle. He was tired of feeling rejected, so he stopped initiating. Then I felt that the burden was 100% on me, and that didn't feel good either. It was a mess.

Here is what did NOT work: any kind of pressure, threats, or complaining.

Here is what DID work: he told me he wanted a D.

Now, I think that if he had told me, at some point before he got to actually wanting a D, that he was SO upset and hopeless, that he found himself considering D as his only option - that also would have made me sit up and take notice.

My H telling me he wanted a D was a serious 2x4 to the head for me. I guess I was listening to his complaints through my own lens - so I thought that he must be being overdramatic. It did not occur to me that he is just a different person with different needs, and that his needs and feelings, whatever they are, are valid. It made me see that he wasn't just being a pervert, but he truly needed that intimate connection to feel loved and worthy. It made me feel like a complete POS that I had withheld this from him for so long. (We did have sex, but it was not frequent enough - sometimes it would be 2-3 months in between.)

It's been 7 weeks since BD . . . and we have probably had more sex than we did in the past 3 years. Of course, H probably thinks I am faking things to get him back, but he couldn't be more wrong. I am embarrassed to say this, but it took this massive upheaval for me to see straight. I wanted to have this intimate R with H the whole time, I just couldn't figure out how to make it work. (I know this sounds incredibly stupid right now, it does even to me - but the mind is a weird thing and sometimes we can just get so stuck somewhere that we can't see out.)

I'm not suggesting that you throw empty threats your W's way. I don't even know if your W would see things any differently if you did D her. I am assuming that she is not simply non-sexual; surely you (as a HD person, especially) did not marry her thinking you would never be having sex with her. I don't think people just change like that - if you two had a good sex life at one point, it's still in there somewhere.

When you say you are HD, are you expecting her to meet your level of D? Or are you OK with more of an average frequency? I would occasionally make the effort to get things going with H - I would initiate, we would have sex, and I would feel defeated because he didn't act happy or appreciative about it. (I mean, he liked it, but guess I wanted a ticker tape parade or something.) Worse yet, sometimes a week later he'd be back to the complaints about how we have a "sexless marriage." That made me feel like my efforts were completely wasted, and I couldn't possibly ever make him happy.

I think another issue for me was complacency. I knew we were going through a crappy time, but I thought that we had our whole lives to figure it out. Little did I know that H did not agree . . . he was not about to live his whole life like this, and he didn't see a way out other than D.

What is your W's position? She may just be stuck, too.

[Ambivalent]

Hi MG.

And in my case, even that wouldn't work.

If it's a threat, no it may not, but if you act on it , it may.

You are projecting an outcome or mind reading based on previous history. I do this too!

Anyhoo, my lack of desire stemmed from years of how I was treated. My desire came and went.
Mostly, even from prior to marriage, I was dismissed by my spouse, and my reality was that friends and family came before me.
Basketball , golf for a big part of the marriage, bowling , and poker. When I ( a woman ) doesn't feel connected, desire/libido may diminish.

Then if you add bad breath or any pressure , what may be perceived as pressure...then it is a recipe for avoidance.

Dinners, cuddling, flowers, etc. is SEEN or sniffed out by the LD partner as pressure.

I never had a c. orgasm by my H. and so I knew what was missing. I also didn't know to touch my self! I didn't even consider it. It was frustrating. I also felt inadequate, and inhibited because of the above.

Now what made me re-think this seriously?
My husband walked out the door.
I then found out how crushed he was about the lack of intimacy, the lack of the NEEDING to be desired, NEEDING to be emotionally connected. What sex represented to him.

You see I didn't know. He never shared this with me. I should have been sat down in a restaurant and quietly privately told about how it was affecting him emotionally, martially, and how it devastated him.

To this day I carry a great deal of guilt and remorse. I also didn't know how to make myself have a drive. I've learned much since them and am still seeking ways to create sexual tension.

For me it is about commitment to the marriage, understanding that I cannot keep myself from my spouse and expect him to stay faithful. Now I was never a no sex person, just low libido. Hormones played a major factor as well, and stress was a biggie. So at different times in our marriage, there were different environments.

Desire to make amends, love my husband the way [b]HE needs to be loved is a major factor.

I love him and always have, so I sought education in all aspects. Psychologically, visually, in a tactile manner too!

I've learned it's okay to ask questions or even direct during the event.

I can't tell you what to do, because everyone is different and it has to come from within her. She has to be honest with herself and you.

I hope this gives you something with which to work!

<3<3<3

[Ambivalent]

Oh, I do want to tell you, I did not know from where my lack of desire came. I had to do reading on this to see where it may apply to my life, previous and in the recent past.

So your wife would have to work on herself , either in therapy or do research on her own to figure it out. Because she isn't interested, this could be very difficult. If this is a major thing for you, then you have some tough decisions to make.

Printing out articles about libido, desire, and what diminishes it , may help as visuals if you sit her down.

MWD writes about marital vows and from a prospective of breaking the vows. This hit ME right between the eyes.

It was important to me to not just do it, but to learn and participate, experiment, and yes seek some gratification too!

[ssmguy]

Here is what DID work: he told me he wanted a D.

Would you have been similarly motivated if he instead had asked if you would be OK with him having a girlfriend in addition to you as a wife? And if he had said, well, if you don't want sex, then you shouldn't mind if he had it with his girlfriend as long as it was just a friends with benefits arrangement and wouldn't otherwise upset your marriage? Would you have reacted at that point, or would you not have taken him seriously until he actually went out and got that girlfriend, but not yet slept with her? Or would he actually have to sleep with her?

As I see it, if you're going to divorce, you might as well take the above approach first. What's there to lose at that point?

Now, I think that if he had told me, at some point before he got to actually wanting a D, that he was SO upset and hopeless, that he found himself considering D as his only option - that also would have made me sit up and take notice.

Didn't really work in my wife's case. I guess she knew I was bluffing.

It made me see that he wasn't just being a pervert, but he truly needed that intimate connection to feel loved and worthy.

Very true, but it's also about the physical fun, which for a person with HD, is very much fun indeed. And so to be denied that fun is pretty tough. As an HD person, it's almost impossible to accept that you have promised to have sex with just one person for the rest of your life, and then that person isn't interested. So all those dreams of having great sex -- like really, you're not going to have sex again as long as you live?!! When an HD person really contemplates that, he goes into a cold sweat and realizes he's not going to be able to handle that. It's not just the rejection for an HD person, it's also realizing that he's put into a sexual prison. That's certainly the complete opposite of what marriage was supposed to be. If you're single, you can have sex, and then -- you get married and that means you can't have sexy with anybody at all??? It's beyond absurd. This view is, of course, completely not understood by the LD or ZD (zero desire) person.

... surely you (as a HD person, especially) did not marry her thinking you would never be having sex with her. I don't think people just change like that - if you two had a good sex life at one point, it's still in there somewhere.

No, she was pretty interested when we first met, though she was a bit inhibited in some ways. I, however, believed the generalizations written by experts in sex advice books and columns -- that women peak sexually around 30-40 when they are more comfortable with their bodies, etc. Total BS in our case. With each childbirth she became progressively less interested. And then with menopause -- zero interest. Never came back at all. Therapy helped us get along better in spite of this, but not a hint of her sexual interest came back. Talk therapy did nothing in that regard.

[ssmguy]

When you say you are HD, are you expecting her to meet your level of D? Or are you OK with more of an average frequency?

It's not just about frequency, it's the whole mindset that goes along with being HD. I have sexual fantasies and all kinds erotic energy every day. I don't even understand people who want sex only once a week. Sure, I could "compromise" and have sex just once a week, but if that's the case 90% of the sex I have will be solo. Meaning that from my point of view, my marriage would still be 90% sexless in a partnered sense. The vast majority of my sexual energy would be my own fantasies, porn, or whatever. I have never gone as long as a week without sexual release my entire adult life. I've heard the statement that I "shouldn't need sex that often" too many times. Even had people on this forum post to me that if I was in a real loving relationship, I'd want sex less often because it would be more quality sex, etc. I know the advice is well-meant, but seems to me to come from people who have less desire, and justify it by one-upping and insisting that it's "quality" they are interested in, as if I'm just some kind of cheap man whore. LOL So, OK, let's try this -- would you be OK with just one good mean a week? I mean a real big meal, high quality, right? Why not? Are you some kind of glutton that needs food every day? How disgusting.

Worse yet, sometimes a week later he'd be back to the complaints about how we have a "sexless marriage." That made me feel like my efforts were completely wasted, and I couldn't possibly ever make him happy.

Been through somewhat the same thing. My wife has said things like, "You want sex now again?!!! We just had sex two days ago!!!" It was hard for me to keep from rolling my eyes back in my head.

It's just my viewpoint as an HD person, I realize, but it's hard for me to see how a person who "wants" sex just once a week could be enjoying it all. I mean, if it really was enjoyable, wouldn't you want it more often? What makes one not think of sex on days 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, and then, suddenly, one wants sex real bad on day 7?!! What changed from day 6 to day 7? Doesn't make sense to me.

I think another issue for me was complacency. I knew we were going through a crappy time, but I thought that we had our whole lives to figure it out.

I can only imagine how annoying that would feel to me. Kind of like, "we don't have any food right now, but we have our whole lives to figure it out." No we don't.

Little did I know that H did not agree . . . he was not about to live his whole life like this, and he didn't see a way out other than D.

Absolutely. If you are of the mind that sex is one of the most fun things one can possibly do, it makes no sense at all to be without it. Like what is the point of everything else you're doing if you deny yourself the best part of all. That's just stupidity beyond belief. And we live in culture that gets upset if you try to do that with anyone else but your designated sexual partner in marriage? And that person has no interest at all. It's probably the most stupid thing I have ever experienced about the whole concept of marriage.

What is your W's position? She may just be stuck, too.

Perhaps. But she doesn't want to talk about it. I've tried too many times to talk about it, including in therapy. But we get along very well otherwise, because I don't pressure her anymore. We do many other romantic things together, but there's no sex whatsoever.