One giant leap forward! - Part 8

[T1000]

Yeah your right I should sort out my boundaries now.

Hmmmm seems we've talked about that before, so what are your boundaries?

Good luck buddy, you can come out of this great no matter the outcome.

I struggle with this. I find hard to think of them off the top of my head. How I feel right now I won't necessarily feel tomorrow.

[T1000]

It's messing with my head this new information about her wanting back in. I feel for the first time I was actually getting somewhere and now this.
I don't know how long I take to decide on this. What is long enough and what is ridiculous?

Whatever feels right is what is right. There is no set time, unless one of you moves on while waiting for the other.

I would be very, very careful here T. I agree with Sandi and I think she is testing the waters to see if she can bring you back. It doesn't mean there isn't a part of her that wants it, I just wouldn't trust that part at this point in time to be able to commit. If you do want to give it a chance, I would not proceed until she is counseling and you start to see some real changes in her.

I asked her if it's so important I see the kids more why does stop me from Skyping them sometimes and make it awkward. She said it's because she is hurting.

This alone shows how much growing she has to do if she is using her children as pawns to get back at you.

I agree. Patience has never been one of my W's strengths. It is the hurdle she fell on last time too.

I don't think she fell on patience last time. I don't think she was ever committed and she was doing what I did, "Ok, now he's back and I feel safe in that area again so I can go do what I really want to do and that is be in contact with OM"

I believe there is a part of her that wants your M. I just wouldn't go back until that part grows bigger and is fully committed.

I do feel that taking my time will push her patience and test her in a way.

She isn't ready.

Even though we had a argument this week I did actually notice a change in her which I will explain in one of my next posts.

[T1000]

This alone shows how much growing she has to do if she is using her children as pawns to get back at you.

I have a different idea on this but first, did you ask her to talk about this more? How not letting the kids Skype you kept her from hurting?

Her realization of that and admitting it might actually be growth on her part.

I will ask her but I understand why this works for her and would also work for most people, I hurt her and she gets revenge on me.

[T1000]

W and I have had brief contact every few days for the last few weeks either about kids or just light conversation. We were discussing bonfire night, she likes fireworks but the kids hate them so she couldn't see any. I went with my brother and niece to see some, I took a pic and sent it to her. We talked about how my new niece is getting on.

The next day she sent me a funny pic and we joked back and forth for a few hours.
Later that afternoon this happened regarding December and xmas:

W: With you having the boys on the 28th shall I just keep them the weekend before?
Me: No it's okay I would like them for both.
W: Are you planning on bringing them back on the Sunday?
Me: I thought we were going to meet at the motorway on the Monday?
W: Yeah that would have been a good idea my family is celebrating Christmas on the Sunday because everyone is away this year. It's only been planned so everyone can give the kids their presents.
Me: So are you asking me to give up even more time I was gonna have them?
W: Erm....didn't you want to cut your time short with them at New Year?
Me: Just because I want to do something for new year doesn't mean I want to cut any more time back that I already have.
W: I'm scheduled to have them 31/1Dec. It's unrealistic to think you can have them every weekend in December. We are gonna have to be adults and negotiate.
Me: You already have them to yourself for all of Christmas week which includes Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Basically the 3 days I would love to have them!
W: Well next year we can negotiate how to arrange Christmas so no one loses out but this year I'd ideally like them the weekend of the 7th and 21st. All I'm asking is you bring them back early on the Sunday. Our table is booked for 1.30pm.
Me: You can have them the 14th December. I'm doing Christmas with them on the weekend of the 21st. You have all week, every week to do Christmas with your family. Why do you have to try and take time off me??
W: I'm sorry but you did not tell me you were planning on making plans with them. I've already made plans before you. Everyone works in my family. During the week does not work. You are having them for 5days after Christmas!!
Come and pick them up on earlier on the Friday if it means that much to do. Have your Christmas on the Saturday. I need them back on the Sunday. If you don't agree to it you're not having them that weekend. I've made plans.
Me: I don't need to tell what plans I had made. We agreed that I was meeting you at the motorway on the Monday. That was the plan we BOTH agreed to.
We need to have this discussion in person.
You could just move stuff around because you want to. It's not fair on me or the kids.
W: That was only an idea at the time...we never finalized anything!! Technically the weekend of the 21st would have been mine anyway. I'm giving you an extra weekend with them in Dec!
You're only entitled to have them two weekends out of the month. I've been more than accommodating.
Me: You really don't give a sh1t do you!!!
W: Of course I do!!!!
Me: No you don't. You chop and change to suit yourself and it doesn't matter how it effects everyone else.
W: Of course I do. Flippen heck...I only asked for the kids to be back early on the Sunday.
I have to be the strict parent, the mom & the dad. I have a routine during the week. You get to have the fun weekends! It's Christmas. Myself and my family would like to spend time doing stuff with the boys.
Me: That is an extra 24 hours removed from our little Christmas which was nearly 3 days long and you want to cut it by a third because it's convinient for you and your family.
You chose to put us all where we are right now.
I wanted none of this [censored]!
W: Erm....I had NO CHOICE but to leave you!!
You did not love me or respect me. Everything was to suit YOUR family. I'm sorry that mine have an equal stake now.
It's tough [censored]...you should have been a better husband who put their wife first and I'd have never have left. You're the one who put us all where we are right now T1000.
Oh...and you're also the one who told me after I told you I miss us as a family...you informed me that your have never been happier without me in it. Thought this is the perfect life for you....you chose this. You created this situation.
I really don't want to argue with you. Get a good night's sleep and hopefully we can sort something out that suits us both that weekend.

You can probably all see where it went pear shaped. I lost my temper. It's more difficult to keep my temper when I'm not as concerned about how W see's me.
She was the one who wanted me to keep the kids until the Monday and meet her at the motorway on her way to her vacation. I agreed. Now she wants to change it because she has made some new plans.
At the end when she went off on one I decided to just shut up, I wasn't going to contribute anything of worth.
Her justification of why she left is supported by what the MC said and she likes to lean on that.

This part:
"Oh...and you're also the one who told me after I told you I miss us as a family...you informed me that your have never been happier without me in it. Thought this is the perfect life for you....you chose this. You created this situation."

I said I was the happiest I had been in a long time. Mainly because I had removed myself from limbo. I would like to convey this to her but not sure if I should.

The very last line:
"I really don't want to argue with you. Get a good night's sleep and hopefully we can sort something out that suits us both that weekend."

Surprised me, it's as if she saw some sense fairly soon, very new for her.

I really don't want to give up the time I had planned to spend with the kids.

I feel like saying I will do what she wants and then not doing, yes it's stupid and childish.

I don't have a problem with her want the kids for a weekend in December. She plays the "you're only entitled to them every other weekend card when it suit her. I would imagine I'm entitled to them half of the xmas holidays.

[lovethehub]

I agree. I also wouldn't say anything right now to clarify what you said about being happy. The text exchange seems to support the idea that she was testing you to see if she could still get you back easily. You didn't respond the way she wanted so now she is back to using the kids to hurt you.

I know you defended her on using the kids as pawns to hurt you but we all have choices to make. We can choose to be immature and use our children, or we can choose not to. I was hurt when my ex and I split up because of his ongoing A yet I have never once withheld our daughter from him. That doesn't serve anyone.

[T1000]

She is clearly playing you agai. To get what she wants how she wants it.

She's a whiny blaming baby when she doesn't get her way and will say and do what every she can to get her way.

Finalize an actual legal schedule quickly and all this can be avoided

I would love to but financially cannot right now.
Any legal action will cost money that I don't have. Members of my family will lend me money short term. If we D'd then I could include a legal schedule and remortgage the house and pay back the family members. Anything less than D isn't an option right now.

[labug]

Hey T, sorry this is cropping up but you know neither of you have the best of conflict resolution skills. Yours have definitely improved but it's hear impossible to change that dynamic when both people aren't involved in the change.

I hear a lot of I I I, me me me in the conversation, very little about how the 2 adults involved (along with the families) can make this a peaceful, loving time for the kids. I would encourage you to think about that, because kids those ages don't give a flying flip about Christmas and what day of the week it is. That's adult ego that wants to have certain "special" days. Is that helping you or the children?

While what W is asking looks selfish to you, what you're asking probably looks selfish to her. You both have to be prepared to give. What if you started a conversation with "W, how can we arrange this so our kids have a happy Christmas and we get to enjoy our time with them?I know what I'm proposing might sound selfish to you, as yours might to me. How can we work this out?"

You can make this what you want it to be. I'd ask to have them for the week after Christmas (or whatever)and could start to build new traditions with them. Something that's special just for the 3 of you, that you can do every year.

Just keep in mind whatever you decide that this is about time with your kids, not winning or losing over a certain day.

[labug]

And when you make an agreement with her, make sure it's an agreement. Text it to her, or email it ans say, "this is our agreement as I understand it, do you agree?" so you both are clear and have it in writing.

[PatientMan]

You can probably all see where it went pear shaped. I lost my temper. It's more difficult to keep my temper when I'm not as concerned about how W see's me.

Certainly you can understand how losing your temper is not productive, correct? And I don't mean that just in regards to you DB'ing and trying to save your marriage, but as in you two having a relationship that creates the best possible environment for your children.

You should be concerned with how W sees you. Forget reconciling for a moment. She is a woman who can testify in court against your character and parenting capacity.

Now forget court and legal visitation rights for a moment. This is a woman who is the mother of your children, one you will have to deal with for the rest of your life, but especially over the next ~20 years as your kids grow up.

You shouldn't care what your W - or anyone else - thinks about what your core convictions are. You should absolutely care how you handle yourself in confrontational situations with her, though. If you don't think you can control yourself, then remove yourself from the situation (turn your phone off, walk away, etc.). I understand the frustration you much feel, but you need to act productively...in a manner that ultimately helps you meet your long term goals.

Big picture thinking!

-PM

[AnotherStander]

T, when I was in IC my C taught me that there are 3 levels of communication- child, parent, adult. If you're having a conversation with a coworker, it's adult-adult. If you're chewing your kid out it's parent-child. What shocked me about this revelation was to realize that when W and I argued (as rare as it was), I nearly always went to parent mode and she to child. As a result, our arguments solved nothing but created a lot of resentment in W because I wasn't treating her with respect.

I see some of that parent-child in your above conversation, actually it's more like parent-parent because you and your W were both trying to make the "I'm reasonable and you're not so you need to do it my way" argument. The two of you are going to have many, many negotiations in the future. Learn to do it without turning it into a fight. Keep in mind that neither side really gets 100% of what THEY want in a negotiation, it's all about finding a middle ground that both sides can be happy with. You give some, you take some. That's how it works.

Was your W's request really that unreasonable? Was it really going to totally wreck your Christmas to give her some extra time? Or is it just a minor inconvenience that you can adjust to? Try to consider these questions without letting your emotions take over. Call your W, apologize to her and work something out peacefully.

BTW, once I learned about the above I was able to spot my "parent" mode before it happened in all future convos and stop it in its tracks. What I have found is when I stay in "adult" mode, my wife does too and we have great conversations and peaceful negotations. It's been a big 180 for me.