One other thing, about all of you who've read my nightmare of the past couple of weeks....thank you for your empathy...your kind wishes...your sympathy.
I often read your stories, with tears in my eyes, too, and an aching heart for your struggles (and sometimes, happy tears for your triumphs)....but I'm not always that great at posting a comment. I need to work on that. You, too, need encouragement and support from me. So, sorry when I haven't been there for you.
You all have been my saving grace here lately. I truly could not have been this strong without each one of you. Thank you.
First time reader to your threads, im very sorry that your situation has turned like this. But in all honesty, you know now don't you. Its a sad relief to finally know the truth in a way.
Your not second guessing yourself, you no longer have to mind read or project. You have the answer. Now you just need to figure out what you want to do with the information. I would certainly take my time thinking it over.
I think what your husband is doing with the "You threw me out" is very script like, before he could profess his innocence and make you feel guilty. Since the truth is now out, they need to reverse it again and make you out as the "bad" person for splitting up the marriage. I know, its crazy, but they don't think rationally. Believe none of what they say, and half of what they do.
Going dim is totally for you as a way of keeping yourself out of the guilt game. Maybe you need to take a week or two, think things out for yourself. He'll try to drag you back in, to justify what he's doing. The more he can throw blame towards you, the more he thinks he's letting himself off the hook, and that what he's doing is the right decision. Its time you set some boundaries for yourself, and STICK to them, before you drive yourself insane.
Detaching is so under-rated. I know its hard, but you have to separate the emotional from the physical. Treat this like a business transaction. When in doubt in a situation, ask yourself "Is what im about to do or say really going to help the situation". If the answer is no, then don't get wrapped up in it. Don't let yourself to continue to getting dragged into the guilt, anger, betrayal. Act "as if" your moving on, its time, drop the rope a little, and let him play with his own demons.
I would almost handle it like a legal separation. Schedule him wed. and every other weekend with the kids. Keep contact to email only. Make him put in some work, you've been carrying the torch by yourself for too long. Since he's already convinced himself that he's done, separated, then let him live with that decision for a while. It works two fold, he gets to see what life is like without his family, no to be mean by you, but the reality of his actions/choices. And 2nd, push him towards the fantasy life that he thinks he's going to be living, he might just find out its not what he really wants. He needs to find that out for himself.
The sex must stop, imho, your losing some self respect, you don't know what or who he's doing things with. Don't risk catching something cause you need that emotional bond right now. He might even over the next couple weeks attempt to "recapture" you in a way, but you cant allow that until your sure he's actually committed to trying. Your a doormat otherwise.
I might be totally off base here, but you need to start being proactive for yourself, not reactive in hopes of what your doing might work, it wont. He needs to make that journey all by himself.
My mind is spinning from your last update that I read. I can't imagine what you are gong through...when is he telling the truth? When is he not?
There was a point during replay that my H asked me not to ask him any questions. He said the reason was b/c if he didn't want to answer truthfully he would have to make up a lie. And he didn't wanna lie, but felt I was forcing him to lie, by asking questions.
It's so messed up.
Originally Posted By: Angela R
rH...others who are reconciling....is it really worth it? Worth the lies, the pain, the not-knowing? Worth my heart being in total shreds tonight after hearing all morning what a horrible, awful wife I've been, etc.
Is it worth it when your marriage wasn't that great to begin with?
I know many of the posters here aren't in the "reconciliation" phase. And I don't know if its worth it for you, Angela. I guess I can only share my story.
It's easy to say it was worth it now....now I'm experiencing a wonderful R with my H.
And I am at a loss at what to compare it to. I tried to think I might compare it to pregnancy....I threw up a lot during pregnancy, constantly nauseous, gained 80 pounds each time, had a hard birthing experience....but was the baby worth it? Of course!
But you may not have had similar pregnancy and labor experience, idk.
My H and I didn't have the perfect R beforehand either. We didn't have the perfect beginning. I knew from the beginning he was an excellent liar, and he hid things.
As the years passed, there were occasions where he would lie to my face about important things for months and years, and it wasn't till I caught him, that he would admit truth. This pattern continued.
He also had yearnings for a different life. He also was distant, difficult and resentful at times.
And I wasn't perfect either. He said a switch clicked in my brain after having our second son and I wasn't as interested in ML. This is true. I did it out of duty and obligation, not desire. Also, I am somewhat Type A personality and that isn't always easy to live with. So I'm sure during MLC, he was thinking of all my bad traits too and wondering if it was "worth it" to come back home.
And you do know my H wasn't mean really, but did rewrite history and said he never loved me, how manipulative I was, how he wasted the best years of his life with me, how I could never truly understand him, how he felt something "break" inside him and could never get the romantic feeling for me back again (he constantly told that to everyone else too), and other things along the MLC script.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Angela, I don't know you and your H. I wish I could wave a magic wand and have you feel and be better. And for your H to be a man. But it doesn't work that way. For whatever reason, you, him, me, my H, have to take this "journey" as they say.
I can tell you I don't agree with everything my H does now. But our R is stellar. We have something special. He is so much more peaceful and in tune with himself. He is calm, thinks rationally, cares about himself, me, his boys, his home, his job, his stuff.
He was such a fake before MLC. I still loved him, but thought we put on a good act. I don't feel that any more. I feel it's so "real".
Do I think H is totally trustworthy? No. Do I think he would lie to me now? Yes. But he is moving in a direction of transparency and acceptance. We aren't at the end of our journey. I don't think we ever will be. But I'm so glad I stayed and gave my heart another chance at love. So glad I learned and grew and changed too.
A long time ago I used to read Khalil Gabran poetry. And I always remember a part of a poem that said something like the depth of the scoop of pain that you dig, is the depth of joy you can experience in life. Something like that. And that's how I feel on this side of MLC.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
As last year (2012) was drawing to a close and D papers were signed by me and I was expecting H to sign them between Christmas and New Years, I kept asking myself how I will feel without H in my life. Who will I call when I'm in trouble? Who will ever know me as well as he? But I got through it.
And one of the reasons I hung on was I knew H would always be in my life. I wasn't getting "rid" of him by D. I tried to picture him past MLC, into acceptance. A mature, handsome man. I tried to picture him coming to our son's wedding many years down the road. We are both there in mind's eye. He is with someone else. I am with someone else. Is my heart still yearning for him? Will I have wished I stayed and knew it could have been me hanging on his arm. Smiling together at our son? Thoughts like these kept my heart open for reconciliation.
And now...now...when I have our two boys and us together...the four of us...it thrills me. I love knowing our sons can have BOTH parents to help/nurture or laugh/play with them. We are a team.
S14 came to our bed a few nights ago at 4:30 am and said he had a bad dream. Could he get in bed with us? Of course. And my heart felt comfort and nurturing that both of his parents were there.
This isn't to minimize the serious effects MLC had had on our family. It has changed all the dynamics. But H & I are healthier now in our M, so that helps us work through things together.
So, for some of these reasons, and many others (total disruption of my life, effects of D on boys, to name a couple) I am glad I stayed. It was worth it.
I didn't trust my H. I trusted the process. I trusted this forum. I trusted job. I trusted others here. And I knew that if H & I didn't reconcile, I would still be better off as a person.
Hope this helps.
I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now.
If you post on my thread I'll get an email message and could answer you more speedily if you need help right then.
Thinking of you today, hugs, rH
Me54/H47 '08 H is "done" March '12 H moved out Brink of D, December '12 2014 totally reconciled! ...... "I firmly believe in the...absolute possibility of marriage renewal." Jim Conway
Great posts this morning! I'll respond to them in a little bit. Y'all all gave me a lot to think about.
I just got off the phone with a local pastor who specializes in marriage counseling. His reputation is amazing around here...and he feels a "calling" to do what he does to save marriages so he doesn't charge anything for the counseling...which is so awesome because I cannot afford it right now!
He talked with me for half an hour by phone, gave me some "homework" to read and think about, and I'm supposed to meet with him and his wife next week. I feel hopeful!
His advice was so great! First of all, hearing things from a man's perspective was really valuable about the way I've been reacting to H, etc. He gave me some great tips on being a kinder, nicer wife, while not being a doormat...but also, lots of things he said were in line with the DBing principles.
The last thing he said to me really stood out (because H and I had already been fighting this morning via text about whether H should just go ahead and move all his stuff out. I was not being very helpful, in my hurt and anger, I told him I just wanted his crap gone...and he told me that he still owns half this house so he can do whatever he wants, etc....it was not a pleasant or good convo)....anyway, the counselor said:
Please slow down. Just slow down and breathe. You both need to take time to just relax and just think. So many people in their hurt and anger think they just have to make a decision right now...they have to get separated or divorced right now...but that is so false. Just slow down. Use this week until our first session to work on being your best self and on working on your R with God...and give your H some space. He probably does need some distance right now to think clearly, too.
I was like, "WOW!" This guy gets it!
I won't hold my breath, but H did say yesterday that he "might" be open to talking with this pastor, C, who we both already know and like.
I also don't know how H's MLC will affect any of this...I'm thinking he won't be open to counseling right now...but that's okay. I'm going to go and I'm going to work on being a more awesome me!
In the meantime, I will be working on DBing better this week...the "space" thing really worked well with my H last week, until the bomb drop about the maybe/maybe not affair (still not sure what THAT craziness was about...but whatever!).
Until then, things were rocking along...I had been anxious about the space, but H commented that it really helped him.
So, I am working on me. Will do the homework assigned by my new C.
I know not everyone on these boards believes in God (so I'm not trying to offend anyone)..but I do believe in Him. And the C today made me realize just how distant I've been from my faith. I've been hurt, mad, rejected, sad, etc. and have just not been leaning on that higher power at all. The guy today helped me to see that I need to turn my focus back to that, too.
Its a sad relief to finally know the truth in a way.
Yes, the truth does set us free, doesn't it?
I would certainly take my time thinking it over.
I am struggling with this. I'm a fixer and a doer...let's just get stuff done and move on. This whole waiting around limbo thing drives me nuts! But, I'm getting better, sometimes. I do see more clearly, now, the importance of taking our time and not rushing anything.
I think what your husband is doing with the "You threw me out" is very script like, before he could profess his innocence and make you feel guilty. Since the truth is now out, they need to reverse it again and make you out as the "bad" person for splitting up the marriage. I know, its crazy, but they don't think rationally. Believe none of what they say, and half of what they do.
I agree. He was totally trying to divert blame to me and make me out to be the bad guy. I just wasn't very good about DBing while he was doing it. I was frustrated that I didn't handle it better.
Going dim is totally for you as a way of keeping yourself out of the guilt game. Its time you set some boundaries for yourself, and STICK to them, before you drive yourself insane.
I was just talking to a couple of really good friends about this yesterday. Others on here have been telling me to set some boundaries and I've been too scared...but yes, it's time.
Act "as if" your moving on, its time, drop the rope a little, and let him play with his own demons. All day yesterday, I honestly kept picturing a rope...and me dropping it. True story. I found strength in just letting go a bit more. And, I think H sensed I was letting go more...that's why he freaked out so much at the park.
Make him put in some work, you've been carrying the torch by yourself for too long. Since he's already convinced himself that he's done, separated, then let him live with that decision for a while. He needs to find that out for himself.
Yep....so true....but I HAVE to work on doing this in a warm, friendly manner....not B****y like I was yesterday. That certainly doesn't make him want to come back! Lol.
The sex must stop, imho, your losing some self respect.
I get what you're saying...I'm trying to work toward that. Obviously, we didn't yesterday or today...and I'm going to try to make it a point to avoid physical contact. Won't be as hard to if he's not here.
I might be totally off base here, but you need to start being proactive for yourself, not reactive in hopes of what your doing might work, it wont. He needs to make that journey all by himself.
I am SLOWLY getting this...just ask others who've been reading my threads since the beginning (PatientMan, for one!)...and I KNOW I need to be more proactive....just putting it in motion is hard for me....baby steps, I guess.
THANK YOU, rH!!! You are so sweet to take the time to write all that to me! Because our sitches and H's seem so similar, I really value your words!
Others around me keep telling me to give up...that he wasn't that great to begin with, etc....and I keep feeling so stupid for continuing to love him. Seriously, he treats me horribly...and yet, I still love him so much. Makes no rational sense, really. But, reading your story...it really helps me stay focused on what my end goal is. ______________________________________________________
When is he telling the truth? When is he not? I know, right?! Ugh. Now, he's "making up" affairs to hurt me (his words).
There was a point during replay that my H asked me not to ask him any questions. He said the reason was b/c if he didn't want to answer truthfully he would have to make up a lie. And he didn't wanna lie, but felt I was forcing him to lie, by asking questions. That is good insight. H just mentioned yesterday about the need to tell lies because he doesn't want me to know what he's really thinking. It is messed up...because lies take so much more energy and time.
but was the baby worth it? Of course!
Good analogy...I did NOT have easy pregnancies or labors with any of my four kids!!! LOL! But, yes, they are SO worth it.
My H and I didn't have the perfect R beforehand either. We didn't have the perfect beginning. I knew from the beginning he was an excellent liar, and he hid things. As the years passed, there were occasions where he would lie to my face about important things for months and years, and it wasn't till I caught him, that he would admit truth. This pattern continued. Sounds just like my R. 100%. In my H's case, it totally stems from his childhood...I can see that now.
And I wasn't perfect either. Yeah, I thought I was pretty near perfect....but looking back, that self-righteousness was part of what killed our R.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ He was such a fake before MLC. I still loved him, but thought we put on a good act. I don't feel that any more. I feel it's so "real". Wow! That is how I think of my H. He has always put on another personality for others. The person he really is was not the person he showed the rest of the world. I used to wonder if it wore him out being like that.
But I'm so glad I stayed and gave my heart another chance at love. So glad I learned and grew and changed too.
I'm glad for you, too, rH! I'm glad your M is healing and so much better...that you've found happiness and love on the "other side"...:)
A long time ago I used to read Khalil Gabran poetry. And I always remember a part of a poem that said something like the depth of the scoop of pain that you dig, is the depth of joy you can experience in life. Something like that. And that's how I feel on this side of MLC.
I can totally "get" that philosophy. Kinda goes along with the fact that those people who are the most compassionate, understanding people are the ones who been through he!l and back...the more you experience in life, the better you become.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
And one of the reasons I hung on was I knew H would always be in my life. I wasn't getting "rid" of him by D. I tried to picture him past MLC, into acceptance. A mature, handsome man. I tried to picture him coming to our son's wedding many years down the road. We are both there in mind's eye. He is with someone else. I am with someone else. Is my heart still yearning for him? Will I have wished I stayed and knew it could have been me hanging on his arm. Smiling together at our son? Thoughts like these kept my heart open for reconciliation.
And now...now...when I have our two boys and us together...the four of us...it thrills me. I love knowing our sons can have BOTH parents to help/nurture or laugh/play with them. We are a team.
I've thought about that, too. That H will NEVER be out of my life...not with four kids to raise and, then, grandkids and so on. And, I can say right now, that it breaks my heart to picture him and I married to other people in the future and still having to be in contact. I don't want that. I want my H with me in our M...but a better, new M.
Of course. And my heart felt comfort and nurturing that both of his parents were there. And, I want this so much for my kids, as well.
I didn't trust my H. I trusted the process. I trusted this forum. I trusted job. I trusted others here. And I knew that if H & I didn't reconcile, I would still be better off as a person. WOW! Very insightful. GOOD STUFF right there!
One of my H's primary LL's is Acts of Service. It was when we were first married and took the LL quiz..and it still is today.
Yesterday, when he was really spewing, he brought up SEVERAL TIMES how messy are house is and how lazy I am. He brought up the messy house a few days ago, too, and then, recanted and acted like it was no big deal.
In all honesty, I did use to keep a cleaner house. This house, right now, is a DUMP. I'm depressed and sad all the time. I am tired all the time. All I want to do is come home from work and sleep. So, I admit....it's a mess.
When we moved here, 2 years ago, we moved from a 4 bedroom brick house with 2 living areas and tons of closets and storage space to a small 3 bedroom double wide trailer. With four kids, we just don't have enough room (or possibly just have too much stuff...ya know?).
Also, for the past 2 years, H does NOTHING around here, inside or out. I really do have to do everything....so I've been slacking because I'm tired of doing everything...but have I created a vicious cycle here?
So, people out there with AOS as your LL....is H just spewing and being hateful because he knows the messy house bothers me, too....or is this something that could really be bothering him and making him feel unloved???
I couldn't sleep last night, so I actually did clean up A LOT of stuff. House already looks way better.
FYI, H just showed up a bit ago, out of the blue to spend time in "his half" or our home. Whatever. I treated him kindly and left the room to do my own thing. Hope he notices that I did clean...but I did it for ME, not for him.
I realize that I (and the kids) need to be better at keeping the house clean for us...but I wonder if it will also affect H's attitude if I kept the house cleaner? Hhhmmmmm.
Oh Angela, I am so sorry. Sorry you are going thru this, and sorry I was not available to help support you thru this latest horror. I'm glad you have gotten all this support and good advice.
I don't know if it would help you to hear that the rest of our Hs told us a lot of the same exact crap as your H is telling you. My H also told me that he had sex, oral sex, with a mutual friend on our living room rug. He now says he does not even remember telling me that, and says he probably said it to hurt me. He told multiple women that he is the poor abused husband of a cheating whore of a wife. He has told at least 12 women that I know of that he is in love with them over the past 4 years. But you know what Angela, none of these relationships were real and none has lasted.
My H said a lot of the same stuff your H told you. Lots of lies, lots of mean things, lots of painful things, and lots of true things too. Lots of deep deep depressin. He has almost seemed suicidal at times. You say that your H is a "liar, a manipulator, and an emotional abuser," so is mine, and probably all of the MLCers on this board. MLC seems to bring out exceptional lying and manipulating skills.
But the one thing I truly believe and agree with, that both of our Hs told us, is that when they were acting hateful and mean, it was because they do not love themselves. And that does not have anything to do with us.
As to your housekeeping skills, the vets say that we should change the things about us our Hs complain about us which are real and true, and which we can see need changing, and ignore the rest. My H's LL is also AOS, and so I try to do little things for him, and to realize that when he does little things for me, it is his way of showing that he cares. Wonka pointed out to me that AOS people also need WOA when they do the AOS for us, so I always make sure to thank him and show him how much I appreciate his kind act. So I'm sure your H will appreciate the clean house, just like you are happier in a clean house! The biggest thing my DB coach tells me to do now is to STFU most of the time, and never approach my H. But when he approaches me, to be kind and sweet and approachable. He calls it being "lovely wife."
Only you can know what you can bear honey. But I think that you are like most of us on this forum, that we married for better and for worse. This is the worse, that we are going thru right now. I don't know if either of our Hs will ever be able to escape out of this dark tunnel of pain that they are wandering blindly thru. Some do, some never do. And I don't know that if they do escape, whether they will still want us, and whether we will still want them.
But like you Angela -- I believe in God. I put my faith in God that both of our Hs will escape and will become sane again. And that when their eyes are open and they are blinking like moles who have come out of a dark tunnel into the bright sunlight, they will see their "lovely wives." Us, standing strong for our marriages. I am trusting God and this process to get us thru it.
I have a feeling that your new counselor, the pastor, has been around the block a few times, and will really be able to help you. Hang in there Ang, you will get thru this. As I have said before, you are doing great. You are awesome!
Linda
Me 65, Ex 64 M 38 y 2 adult S, 4 G-Kids MLC 11/07 BD 12/09 D 3/14 Dating nice guy 7/14 Engaged to nice guy 12/17
So why did he invent a fake affair with a second phone you didn't know about? Did he really get a second phone...just to pull off this stunt?
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
