Questions on the 37 rules and other advice...

[S4tk]

So I struggled whether the low contact approach toward her (don't pursue, don't ask out, don't initiate) will actually have the effect I am looking for.

There's a HUGE problem in that statement, and that is that it is all about what YOU want. What you want and what your wife wants right now are two completely different things. You are NOT going to get what YOU want (reconciliation) unless and until SHE wants it, and she isn't going to want it for as long as you keep trying to do things to convince her that she does. For now you've got to take your wants and desires, put them in a box, tie a bow around it and put it on the back of the top shelf of the closet. Hopefully some day you can get that box down and open it again, but you've got lots and lots of difficult work ahead before that day comes. What you have to do instead is give your wife what SHE wants- TIME and SPACE. In your words- don't pursue, don't ask out, don't initiate. It doesn't matter whether or not it has the "effect" you want, because it is what SHE wants and right now it is all she wants from you.

I guess only experimentation will tell me. I do need to start a journal too, to be more attentive to her reactions.

Boy, we all seem to go down the same road, LOL! We do things and then watch our spouse like a hawk after a mouse to see how they respond, then catalog whether what we did "worked" or "didn't work". The thing is, nothing is going to work right now. She's done. She is 100% convinced that things are over and there's no chance for the M. You can push her away, you can smother her with attention, you can buy her gifts, you can ignore her, you can paint yourself blue and dance circles around her while waving live chickens over your head. None of it will have any effect on just how done she is. Ironically the only thing that WILL work is for you to get so focused on yourself and making yourself the best possible person that you'll cease to care whether what you're doing has an effect on her or not. It's just like dating- the more available and attentive you are then the less interested she is. The more strong and independent you are the more interested she becomes.

AS,

Yes, I think I am at the point where I am not really pursuing, and where nothing she says is causing me to react with all those no-no's.

But I am still thinking about 180s in terms of changing her. However, I wonder how negative this really is. In DR, MWD does talk about how we all use manipulation, and 180 strategies are just purposeful plans to help change our marriage because when we change ourselves, it almost forces a change in the other. I know you 2x4'd me a bit about this (that's what they call it here, right?) and I don't mind because I want to be corrected if I am going the wrong direction. So keep the wood coming if needed

Also, where did you get the live chickens for your circle dance? Can I order them from this site?

[S4tk]

So...here are my brainstorm notes for 180, etc. I am ready for advice...

My 180's

This is kind of a draft of my goals and plans, but it is also a brainstorm of some of my thoughts regarding some of the questions MWD brings up in DB. I have finished that one, and am in the middle of DR.

*** Deal breakers that would cause me to take a "Love Must Be Tough" (Dobson) approach and ask her to either be a wife again, or leave. ***

- I think it would be if she is having (or begins) an affair, or if she begins to totally neglect her parenting, or if she begins to change her attitude about my parenting (So far in the midst of a lot of negative stuff about me and the "done" language and IDYLA repetition, she has repeatedly told me that I am a great guy and a great dad).

*** Which of these will be the very first sign that things are starting to be on the right track? (this is a difficult question. She has never, hardly ever, pursued me in any way. Never asked me out for a date, very rarely initiated intimacy, never sat next to me on the couch, very rarely acted in a playful or affectionate way, rarely carried a "light" attitude about her) ***

- her being happy and joking around more?
- her talking more about what she is learning with her IC?
- her opening up to me in a trusting way?
- if her anxiety is back regularly because she is confused?
- she releases some anger/sadness toward me?

*** Think critically about yourself. Imagine what your spouse has thought and felt about your problem-solving efforts. If someone asked her, how I have reacted to the problems we are having, what would she say? ***

- denial, begging, shock, pushing all reasons on her side [first month or two]
- peaceful acceptance after that
- working on himself now, running, dieting, being oddly detached and peaceful, keeping busy with the kids, giving her space, being available to talk, listening in an oddly "not gonna fix it" kind of way, affirming her more...I think these are some things she might say.

*** What wild ideas have you had which might be useful to solve this problem? (this was a question from the DB book) (Maybe imagine you are not able to talk...actions speak louder than words) ***

[Separating our apple, amazon accounts?]
[Getting off each others' bank accounts / cards?]
[Teaching her about our budget so she feels more independent?]
["Agreeing" with her about separation or the loss of connection?]
[Dance classes] (begun)
[Weight loss] (begun)
[Starting a business?] - With the religious nature of our jobs, I may need to seek a new career, and I have considered starting a business.
[Agreeing it was all my fault?]
[Planning vacation with kids with or without her?
[Stop calling / texting] (begun except when it involves finances or kids)
[Spend time with friends having fun]
[Getting out in the evenings - just to make her curious] (begun in combination with some of the other ideas)
[No computer after kids in bed?] Would show I am available
[Preparing a mini-concert for her?] - this would be an idea that I know she would love if we ever get back to a reconciled point, not for now though.
[Wacky dates - shooting, concerts, tastings, scavenger hunts, climbing, more?] - again, for later if we can reconcile
[Dad fishing trip?] - this is something I want to do because my dad has a chronic illness and he and I have not really connected emotionally even though he has been a ever providing, loving dad. I feel I inherited this emotional connection disability and if I can make ground with him, maybe it will help me in other types of R's as well
[Visit her grandma?] - she is dying and has always loved me.

*** What is different about the times when I am feeling happy? ***

- I remember my many friends and family that love me
- I remember it will be ok no matter what she does
- I do my own thing and forget about her (trick or treat with kids, driving to visit friends, working on my own stuff, running, meaningful tasks at work)

*** What do I need to do in order to be happy in 3 years, with or without W? ***

- financial plan (we have gotten so used to "having enough" and living on our budget but potential S or D would change all of that, especially since both of us would need new careers)
- work more on mentoring the kids; educate self as a dad
- 180s for myself
- continue graduate studies?
- meaningful job

*** What are ways I can become more fun, attractive, funny, safe, cheerful, strong, outgoing?***

- fun: guitar lessons, fun things with kids, dancing with Besiana, B date night
- attractive: diet, exercise, wardrobe, cologne, grooming, smile, eye contact
- funny: make light of situations, tell jokes, be silly
- safe: listen, don't react, refrain from sharing certain things with her, don't talk to others anymore (except Nathan, Scott, Jason)
- cheerful: smile more
- strong: (I think part of the thing that turned her heart cold is my strength; without sensitivity). So, I can remain confident but with a humbleness about it.
- outgoing: think I'm ok here

*** What are my 180s?

* EMPATHY / LISTENING / CONNECTION
- Sit in a quiet room and put myself in W's shoes. [I've tried to do this and it doesn't get me anywhere. As much as I am taking seriously the things she has brought up with control, stealing her voice, etc., I really can't understand her wanting to throw away a really decent M]
- Anticipate conversations she will want to have, and have a plan for them. During this time, listen well and remain CCCC. Ask questions, share feelings.
- NO fights. [To do this, I will need to let go of your sense of justice, and I will also need to process emotions real-ly and not channel them negatively toward her as anger or criticism or control]
- No iPad or bring-home work in the evening, sit in a chair where she could potentially sit next to me.

* CONTROL / MANIPULATION
- Detach for my own health, and to give space
- Open the cage door (Dobson) (done)
- Continue to GAL and work on myself and avoid the R talks.

* AFFECTION
- no way to 180 this with her right now, but I can work on this weakness in my life by reaching out more to my parents and sister. For some reason, I have no problem with showing affection to my kids, so that is awesome at least.

* HEALTH
- exercise and eat less
- no more snacks / desserts
- run 3x week / gym (just finished my 16th run, so it's a start)
- dance lessons

* ATTRACTIVENESS
- continue to lose weight and gain muscle
- smell nice

* GAL
- plans with kids (cool activities)
- plans with church (reengage in some kind of ministry)
- plans with friends (reconnect with two specifically)
- guitar, tennis
- reading
- do my job well again

*** What are my values for me?
- Heart
- Fatherhood
- Fun
- Ministry
- Provision / Purpose
- Becoming an attractive person again
- Purity

To Read:
"Journey from Abandonment to Healing"
"N.U.T.S"
DB (done)
DR (in progress)

[S4tk]

Hmm... I likely overwhelmed people with the length of my previous post. My bad.

[S4tk]

Still looking for any input on my 180s but allo have a question. Since returning from OS, we have been staying (all 4 of us) with my parents. Unfortunately, they have taken sides emotionally (my side). My mom is finding it especially difficult to treat W warmly.

W is currently away for two weeks back OS tying up loose ends with our move. Our D and S kind of see my parents' place as their home in America. We do own a home about an hour from parents, but we rent it out and our D and S don't remember it anyway.

W has said she wants to be close to my parents - she is much closer to them than to her own. She has, throughout this time, called me a great dad, a good man, a good friend, etc. etc. She simply says she is done with the marriage.

I know we are not supposed to bring up R talks, but we do need to figure out more permanent housing. I feel that this is important for the kids, as well as for my and W's PMA.

When I brought it up a few weeks ago, she asked, "[my name], what are we going to do?" She has asked this a few times since BD. The two close friends with whom I confide about this crisis seem to think this is positive - they think since she is asking me questions, she still sees me as the protector of our family and she still feels comfortable with my decisions. I am not sure about this interpretation.

Anyhow, my desire would be that the four of us find a place and then I continue to avoid R talks. If she wants to bring up S again, she can and then she will have to "do the heavy lifting" of leaving. But should I simply declare this desire to W (we all find a place together) and go with W looking for a place? How should I initiate and handle this conversation with her?

T

[AnotherStander]

Well that post is a very long read, I don't really have too much to say about it, it seems pretty cohesive and well thought out. About the only comment I have is to keep in mind that you have to do 180's for you, out of a desire to become the best possible person you can, because your W will see your 180's as tricks to get her back after which you'll fall into old patterns and habits. To her you're showing too little too late. So don't expect any encouragement. Just stick to them, eventually after months and months of consistent changed behavior she may start believing you've really changed.

Also I wanted to comment on this:

*** Which of these will be the very first sign that things are starting to be on the right track? (this is a difficult question. She has never, hardly ever, pursued me in any way. Never asked me out for a date, very rarely initiated intimacy, never sat next to me on the couch, very rarely acted in a playful or affectionate way, rarely carried a "light" attitude about her) ***

It seems like that is just basic relationship stuff that occurs in ANY healthy R, and if you're saying she almost never did those things then that is not a good sign. It makes me wonder if she has some kind of intimacy issues, like for some reason she has trouble opening up or getting close to someone. Hopefully she's exploring that in IC.

[S4tk]

Well that post is a very long read, I don't really have too much to say about it, it seems pretty cohesive and well thought out. About the only comment I have is to keep in mind that you have to do 180's for you, out of a desire to become the best possible person you can, because your W will see your 180's as tricks to get her back after which you'll fall into old patterns and habits. To her you're showing too little too late. So don't expect any encouragement. Just stick to them, eventually after months and months of consistent changed behavior she may start believing you've really changed.

Also I wanted to comment on this:

*** Which of these will be the very first sign that things are starting to be on the right track? (this is a difficult question. She has never, hardly ever, pursued me in any way. Never asked me out for a date, very rarely initiated intimacy, never sat next to me on the couch, very rarely acted in a playful or affectionate way, rarely carried a "light" attitude about her) ***

It seems like that is just basic relationship stuff that occurs in ANY healthy R, and if you're saying she almost never did those things then that is not a good sign. It makes me wonder if she has some kind of intimacy issues, like for some reason she has trouble opening up or getting close to someone. Hopefully she's exploring that in IC.

AS,

Your observation is a likely probability, but she is not willing to explore that right now, I imagine. She is doing IC but with a Gestalt / Jungian T she found herself so I'm not sure they are diving into the dark underbelly.

T

[S4tk]

Had a potentially telling interaction with W today. She is OS for two weeks packing our stuff and getting it shipped back "home" here to the States. Her family lives in Europe and she went to visit them in her home country for a few days.

We Skyped each other (mostly because she wants to see the kids) and then I asked how her grandma is doing. Long story, but she lived with her grandparents for 3-4 years when she was very little, from toddlerhood until about 5. They were just as much parents to her as her mom and dad. Her grandpa died maybe 7 years ago, but her grandma has been hanging in there, slowly losing track of who is who.

When I asked, she told me her grandma has maybe only a few weeks left to live. She saw her but Nana didn't recognize W. I told W I was very sorry and that it must have been difficult to visit. I also said I was very sorry she would pass away soon. W's response was, "It's hard, but that's life."

I don't want to mind read but I did want to journal because W was so close to her. It is almost like saying that for a parent who is dying. A bit strange, or am I reading too much into it? I guess another option is she just doesn't want my compassionate response so she was closing herself off to me emotionally.

I did recently read about the 6 stages of MLC and am tempted to apply that understanding to W, but I don't know if it applies to women as well.

TB

[S4tk]

Beware that when that happens, the WAS may push more buttons because a lot of their behavior stems as a reaction from ours or are expecting to get a reaction from us. That's why when we step away from the picture emotionally, and sometimes physically, they are forced to look at themselves, because there's no push and pull to distract them and make them blame someone else. Makes sense?

I still have a LOT to learn, but this is what I've figured out so far.

Preggonomore,

I never responded to this, but I am re-reading my thread thus far and these words of yours struck me. So, if we get out of the way, the thing the are blaming for their unhappiness (their LBS) is no longer there. So if they are still then unhappy, they begin to wonder? That's genius.

It's double genius because then it gives me the time to work on myself as well.

s4tk

[AnotherStander]

I guess another option is she just doesn't want my compassionate response so she was closing herself off to me emotionally.

It is indeed mind-reading, but I'd say the above is a strong possibility.

[S4tk]

Ok...

It's about six weeks after our relocation, and I am getting stressed still living with parents. We can afford to rent or buy something, but I have been waiting for W to bring up the idea of S again. She hasn't, which might be good or bad.

At any rate, I need to initiate a discussion with her about finding a new place to live. She is currently away, in the middle of a two week trip we needed to do to wrap things up at our previous living location.

I am thinking to tell her something like this:

"W, I am seeing that it isn't healthy for you or I or my parents for us to continue to stay with them. I feel for everyone's stress levels, and in the interest of giving the kids a stable place to call home, we should look to rent a place. In which of the following neighborhoods would you be comfortable with me looking: X, Y, Z, etc."

Does this sound DB enough, considering the circumstances? Should I say this on the phone, just send an email, etc.

TB