Fog City Coaster continues

[25yearsmlc]

Last Tuesday, while w and I were together, w expressed some anxiety about needing to fulfill a continuing education requirement for a license that we both possess. I told her that I would take care of getting her signed up. So I took care of this for her and she text me today thanking me and telling me I am wonderful.

you offered a kindness, then you kept your word, and she thanked you for it and complimented you for it. It counts as a very positive interaction. No, you don't have to keep on doing this, and no,- she did not ask you to either so there's no doormat stuff here.

Don't over think it.


I am not sure if I did the right thing or not (in offering to do this for her). I know there is some thought that when a spouse leaves you stop doing things for them and let them take care of themselves. Also, psychological research shows that we like people more by doing things for them than by having things done for us.

I applaud your efforts. But I caution you,

Either follow the DB approach OR follow another. Not both or many.

Don't seek/get conflicting advice and strategies that negate each other or confuse the heck out of you so you are paralyzed.

And FWIW, I don't buy the statement above either. I enjoy giving love AND receiving it and doubt I'm an outlier.

Still, my w had told me prior to BD, and since BD that she wants somebody who will take care of her.

Your wife TOLD you this!!? That is data to use wisely. Now, maybe you think it's lazy of her or maybe you think she deserves it and you have not been the "provider" most women are attracted to. But do NOT gloss over this statement...good grief. I'd say it resolves any confusion about whether you should have signed her up for the course...Geez...



I have not done a good job of getting her to clarify for me exactly what she means by wanting to be "taken care of". But during our relationship, signing us up for the course would have been she would have done, not me. So this time I took care of it.

What do you think she means?

Here's some "research" for you to consider. I call it the "caveman theory" in terms of explanation. It's two parts.

A study really exists that revealed the two things most important in a spouse.

MEN said the two most important things to them in a wife, was "attractiveness/sparks", which was interpreted to include feeling your wife is attractive to OTHER men, in a "trophy wife" way, yet somehow can't threaten the h (nice crazy set up there) and they want affection and sex from someone who turns them on and seems turned on...

Second, men said they wanted "peace" from their wives which was interpreted to mean no nagging or carping and that terminology about nagging, MIGHT mean "any" negative feedback. Basically we women have to use kid gloves when we have something to say that isn't applauding our h''s...

WIVES SAID the two most important things in a Husband, for them was: security, which seems to mean physical security (the h investigates the noise downstairs or the wife goes with him BEHIND on the stairs) and the h is physically strong enough for her to feel physically safe.

Security also means FINANCIAL security, like he's employed, steadily, not always losing a job, not lousy with money, will keep a roof over her head.

CAVEMAN theory is sort of mine but based on many experiences, articles and discussions with friends/family.

Imagine the caveman days..Imagine that the man goes out for food, and the woman stays inside the cave with the fire and maybe a baby.

She needs/wants him to return to be her companion AND to bring meat and fruit and grains...she NEEDS that to live, to feed her child, and to feel secure. I'd argue it's biological or at least has an anthropological basis.

She also needs to know he'll come home that night and not find another tribe, or become lost, or get killed by a sabertooth tiger. These things give her "security".

The man wants to come home to a warm fire, and a safe, cared for baby growing into a happy toddler, who he is the father of.

No other men can "visit" the cave and steal his woman or child, and the kindling should be close by the fire for easier warmth...when the woman sees the meat the husband has brough home, she is happy and proud. HE PROVIDES and she applauds. He sees that she has repaired the bear skin rug for them to sleep on, the baby is happy and healthy, and he thanks her for giving him a "family" and peace.

TODAY"S TRANSLATION

I think women who want to be taken care of simply don't want both roles of the adults in this^^ scenario. Now it might be more than that. It might be that she wants to be a princess and not work OR have kids and hire housekeepers and all that a very wealthy man might offer...

IF a woman is the breadwinner, that's fine UNLESS she's also the primary caretaker of the child AND home...

I mean that b/c I like working outside the home but you cannot dump it on the other.

Hire help if you want it all, or share. But make sure those basic NEEDS are met.

And don't overthink it. Also, GAL can make your w believe you will keep neglecting her.

BUT otoh, if she has already said goodbye or she is interested in OM

you have to start being seen as attractive to OW....which means GAL.

Not merely golfing with buddies (but that is good) or any solo work out activities (they help you look good? Fine.)

But meet new people. To me that is key to GAL. Become a bit mysterious so that your w can see you more objectivity. When you look and smell good (get a new cologne and shirt at least. Visible change is easy, so start there)

it will make your w wonder. But be upbeat and positive and flattering to HER so she feels relaxed around you.
a confident man is an attractive man. Don't let her see all the second guessing you are doing

but go ahead and ask her for clarification of claims she makes that are really truly unclear.

She may really need a break and more attention from you more than anything else. Maybe.

Good luck

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Hey Fly .. Thanks for stopping by! I will have to see if you updated your sitch.

At time of BD in February, there was ton of circumstantial evidence that w was seeing an OM. I don't know if anything physical would have started before BD or not. I never got any clarification on that. That OM is either over or it is casual and still going on, but not frequently. I am not 100% certain anything happened. It is a "Where there is smoke, there is fire" kind of thing.

Why I say that it is a virtual certainty that she has been physical since BD is because we have been separated for 8 months and when she left she said that "she needs sex". Before me, and after her first D, she was involved in other sexual relationships and some of them were very short lived. I actually suspect that she may have gone back to a previous boyfriend or more like "sex buddy". She was clearly not involved in anything serious a month ago because she reached out to me for sex (even though it didn't happen). I have a small amount of fear that she could actually find someone she likes and who likes her back. W thinks of me as an ex now even though we have done no legal work toward a D or even separation. At this point it is hard for me to be upset with her for anything she does with another man because we are not together.

My first w had an EA with the next door neighbor; that was very painful to watch. I held out hope, but when she met a new guy OM2 and was physical with him, I couldn't take that pain and I moved on. My first w is now married to OM2 and they have a daughter together. My M to w1 ended 10 years ago and we all get along well. I co-parent with w1. She is still married to OM2

Current w told me that her first marriage ended because her h always had his friends around and they had no time as a couple. Also she placed a lot of blame on some weird sex stuff that went on...

I was pretty good with the GALs up until my fall classes started. (I teach at a community college) I am technically just part time but teaching a full load right now. I also develop education content for an online homework system and that is a 75% time job so I am have trouble GALing right now. I do get to the gym often and was racing sailboats over the summer.

To me it sort of feels like w may be pulling away a little more, but it might all be in my head. When I had more of a life, time when by faster. Right now I am taking a step back to see what w does next. My birthday is in a few weeks and then we have the holidays. I have plans to spend the time with my family, but I am curious to see if w reaches out to spend some time with me.

According to w1 the reason our m ended was that I could not get along with her family. According to current w, I was not pulling my weight in the relationship. I was out of work at the time of BD. Current w also said she was not satisfied with our sex life (more recent conversations lead me to believe that she didn't think it was that bad). Nonetheless I will work on that for whatever relationship I find myself in next. Both w's fell out of love with me. Still I am in the same position twice and need to figure out the common things.

That is enough of a novel for now

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Thanks for stopping by 25!

I know that me financially pulling my weight is at least part of what my w means by being taken care of. My w is not capable of not working; she would go crazy. She may have a fantasy of having someone make enough money so that she doesn't have to work, but she would work. Also, she has always needed a lot of attention. She would not do well with somebody who worked a lot of hours and had little time for her. So there has to be balance. Right now, I could support us both and she could look for an easier job, but we are not together. I think that there is more to the being taken care of thing than the financial side. I am a 6 foot tall athletic type guy but I could probably do a better job of taking charge and being assertive.

I have met new people as part of my GAL. Not sure if w even knows. We don't have common friends and we are not Facebook friends. Any other ideas on being mysterious?

[2ndtimearoundCA]

I applaud your efforts. But I caution you,

Either follow the DB approach OR follow another. Not both or many.

Don't seek/get conflicting advice and strategies that negate each other or confuse the heck out of you so you are paralyzed.

I do feel a bit paralyzed by conflicting strategies.

I have been thinking about this .. Honestly I am not even sure how DBing applies to my situation anymore. Other than working on me to become a better person, getting a life, and, doing what works.

I would some up my situation like like this "attempting to build a new relationship with someone I used to be married to"

When it comes to doing what works.. Seems like that could be anything as long as it works. I haven't read any other books at this time, but a few have been recommended (Dobson). I have scratched the surface trying to learn about attraction.. I like to go to the source material when I learn about a concept .. I go straight to the peer reviewed psychological literature journals etc.

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Sum up.. Not some up

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for stopping by 25!

I know that me financially pulling my weight is at least part of what my w means by being taken care of. My w is not capable of not working; she would go crazy. She may have a fantasy of having someone make enough money so that she doesn't have to work, but she would work. Also, she has always needed a lot of attention. She would not do well with somebody who worked a lot of hours and had little time for her. So there has to be balance.\

True


Right now, I could support us both and she could look for an easier job, but we are not together. I think that there is more to the being taken care of thing than the financial side.

of course there is. Did you read my post to you? It's pretty broad and fairly in depth.



I am a 6 foot tall athletic type guy but I could probably do a better job of taking charge and being assertive.

SHE TOLD YOU she wants to be taken care of. As I asked before, what do YOU think she means?

And did I read correctly that you THINK but don't "know" that she is having an affair? Why do you believe that?

More importantly, why would she?


I have met new people as part of my GAL. Not sure if w even knows. We don't have common friends and we are not Facebook friends. Any other ideas on being mysterious?

Does NOT matter if she knows. It's not about her. It's about YOU living YOUR LIFE WELL.

Any positive changes that result, will radiate from you whether or not she hears of them.

If you are GAL for her to notice, you are not GAL. You are manipulating and hoping the "tactic" works.

That's NOT true change in your life. Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

Hey Fly .. Thanks for stopping by! I will have to see if you updated your sitch.

At time of BD in February, there was ton of circumstantial evidence that w was seeing an OM. I don't know if anything physical would have started before BD or not. I never got any clarification on that. That OM is either over or it is casual and still going on, but not frequently. I am not 100% certain anything happened. It is a "Where there is smoke, there is fire" kind of thing.

Why I say that it is a virtual certainty that she has been physical since BD is because we have been separated for 8 months and when she left she said that "she needs sex". Before me, and after her first D, she was involved in other sexual relationships and some of them were very short lived.

Did you read the "rules" for newbies? Believe nothing they SAY and only Half of what they DO.

Why bother with the mind reading? Does it change a single behavior of YOURS? If not, stop torturing yourself.



I actually suspect that she may have gone back to a previous boyfriend or more like "sex buddy". She was clearly not involved in anything serious a month ago because she reached out to me for sex (even though it didn't happen).

useless speculation. No control over it and since you are separated and seem to be saying it's not a deal breaker, it's truly counter productive. And self inflicted pain. That's counter productive and worse, it's destructive. From within.



I have a small amount of fear that she could actually find someone she likes and who likes her back.

Really? Most of us are MOST afraid of that happening. Why poo poo it? Of course it's a fear of yours. You spend A LOT of time thinking about it but you DO nothing about it. So, it's just a way to stay stuck. NOT Change...


W thinks of me as an ex now

so you say. So what? Every interaction is an opportunity to show her change in you.

Thing is, NO WAW comes home to a marriage unless she believes it will be better/different than before.

You seem to be shrugging your shoulders saying "well, nothing I can do...oh well"

and that shows. And it's sooo not a way to attract a woman back.


even though we have done no legal work toward a D or even separation. At this point it is hard for me to be upset with her for anything she does with another man because we are not together.

I get that. But it does not mean you give up. UNLESS you want to, but then you have to admit that and move on. Own that you are giving up.

Seems as if you are not into things that require a long haul amount of effort it if it means really digging deep and looking inside.

The real journey in life is an inward one. Do you get that?

Are you in any form of counselling? I hope so b/c there are a lot of things you skim the surface of, without wanting to really truly LOOK. I think that would be valuable.




My first w had an EA with the next door neighbor; that was very painful to watch. I held out hope,

you "held out hope"...but what did you DO? Did you even confront her or ask her why? Did you want to know?


but when she met a new guy OM2 and was physical with him, I couldn't take that pain and I moved on.

I don't mean to blame you. But these words sound as if you are saying "I did nothing to change and it happened again. So I left."

See what that looks like?


My first w is now married to OM2 and they have a daughter together. My M to w1 ended 10 years ago and we all get along well. I co-parent with w1. She is still married to OM2

Current w told me that her first marriage ended because her h always had his friends around and they had no time as a couple. Also she placed a lot of blame on some weird sex stuff that went on...

I was pretty good with the GALs up until my fall classes started. (I teach at a community college) I am technically just part time but teaching a full load right now. I also develop education content for an online homework system and that is a 75% time job so I am have trouble GALing right now. I do get to the gym often and was racing sailboats over the summer.


here's a bit of a 2 x 4 for you. So get a helmet on. And remember that I'm here trying to help you so that you don't end up here again and MAYBE so you can save this marriage. B/C it's your second one and I can't tell if you learned a thing about yourself, from your first marriage's ending.

That is why most second marriages end in divorce. Only the marriages that end AND TEACH one something about oneself, help improve the relationship skills involved. Otherwise it's just a repeat of the past patterns but with a new person.

Your first wife had not one, but TWO affairs. You sound as if you did not do any work on yourself during or after the first, so yeah, she kept looking for a sub and she eventually found one. ANY insights as to why?

(Maybe now that you two are reasonably peaceful, you could sincerely ask her what she thinks...)

First, imo, GAL does NOT mean just going to the gym. That's for your personal health and it IS good to go.

but it's not new or involving other people or expanding your horizons or pushing your comfort zone or you learning something new or novel or doing something you always wanted to do but held back...

it's just getting in shape. DO MORE. I don't care what your excuses are b/c they are just that.

Here are SOME of the things I did in the interior of Alaska, including in the winter when it was dark 21 hours a day and well below minus 20'F.

I had a baby at the time. An infant turned toddler...

I worked out a lot and looked good

( I either scheduled with older kids help or used the gym that had daycare)

I joined a writer's group. Met some smart people who had interesting "messages."

I used a tanning booth (B/c even though skin cancer risks were bad, it was still better than blowing my brains out...if you take my point)

I saw a therapist, and in the winter I took some anti-depressants.

I volunteered at a woman's shelter, helped others and felt grateful

I took a Conversational French class and later, an Italian cooking class.

I did stand up comedy there (they needed to laugh!) Have done it professionally since.

I auditioned for local community theater roles. Got cast and Met super fun people.

I learned to cross country ski, and went deep sea fishing and yes I hunted some big game too. Did a lot of target shooting too.

Joined the Bd of Director's for Alaskan Wrestling, as our son wrestled and it was a good way to meet other parents and support the team.

I learned to fly, to get my pilot's license

AND I went skydiving. (That was the ONLY GAL activity that costs much. & The symbolism of skydiving was crucial for ME internally and spiritually).

I edited a hunting book. Jobs were scarce and I could do it from home. Turned out to be a best seller.

I volunteered at the kids' schools for PTA and field trips when possible.

I took a pottery class (Very unlike me).

I painted a few colorful paintings to get some color on our WHITE walls (with the snow outside the landscape often looked like black and white film).

I finally joined the Wives Club (I had resisted that for out-dated reasons). I'd been a fool for delaying.

I made two LIFE LONG friends there, and without those women, I am not sure I'd have made it through 3 winters there.

Without them, I'd have had to go south for months at a time and taken the baby with me, and who knows what that would do to our older kids.

I coached two teams.

You can do more. I had a baby, two other kids, lived in a small COLD DARK place, and did what I listed above. I'm probably leaving out a few things too.

Put yourself out more. I read your words and the following words & images come to mind

"apathy", "floating along..", "hoping but not doing"...."waiting to see"

and "Holding back"...and STUCK




To me it sort of feels like w may be pulling away a little more, but it might all be in my head. When I had more of a life, time when by faster. Right now I am taking a step back to see what w does next.

Think that makes her feel taken care of, or what?

I mean, how much effort does that take on your end? Oh, none...note that


My birthday is in a few weeks and then we have the holidays. I have plans to spend the time with my family, but I am curious to see if w reaches out to spend some time with me.

Why not take some control of your life? MAKE PLANS YOURSELF that are appealing to YOU and invite her or whomever. It's YOUR birthday. Don't make your kids or your wife guess what you want to do.

Invite your friends and family and DO SOMETHING FUN. Be appealing and interesting and interestED


According to w1 the reason our m ended was that I could not get along with her family. According to current w, I was not pulling my weight in the relationship.



What do YOU THINK the reason the marriages ended was? I mean, your first w had two affairs you know of, and left you for OM2.

What do you think she meant by saying you did not get along with her family?

RE the present wife, who ought to be the main focus now, what do YOU believe she means and what, if any, validity do you feel there might be to her feeling you don't pull your weight? It's not all about money according to you.

So, maybe it's effort WITHIN the relationship. That's my guess.


I was out of work at the time of BD.

probably VERY significant, don't you think? I mean, seriously...did you read the post I wrote to you?

What is your standard of living? And will hers go UP or down after a divorce from you? It sounds crass but it needs looking at. The whole cave thing, the biological needs and the provider deal...might not be fair, but it does exist in many women I think.

IS the reason you got work, b/c of the BD? What would you have done otherwise? How long had you been out of work?

Current w also said she was not satisfied with our sex life (more recent conversations lead me to believe that she didn't think it was that bad).


"not that bad"...is that a ringing endorsement of passion or what? Come on 2nd, you have to DIG DEEP and face some stuff about yourself and

find what we all find when we do that

flaws we want and need to work on. CHANGE and GROW...


ask yourself how desired your wife felt in the marriage. How much did you SHOW her you wanted her and were willing to pursue her? Be honest about it.

I don't hear ANYTHING about pursuing her here. When we say "read the rules" we don't say they ALL apply. if you were neglectufl, or inattentive, then playing it cool is NOT the best route for you.

make sense?

.

Nonetheless I will work on that for whatever relationship I find myself in next.
Both w's fell out of love with me. Still I am in the same position twice and need to figure out the common things.

My gut says your utter lack of intiative or strong reaction, or showing any passion, (can't tell if you feel it but you don't sound like you show it at all)

and the way you portray yourself as helpless, as if "it happened to you and you played NO role"... "both wives FELL OUT of love with me"

how on earth can you not feel terrified of that always happening if you have nothing to do with it?

Of course you played a role and that ought to make you happy b/c it means you are NOT HELPLESS

you are empowered to learn that you played a role in the demise of your first marriage b/c then you CAN do something about it.

If you were a great husband and wives just "fell out of love" with you, then life and marriage would sure sukk.

You'd be powerless...but then, you would not have to dig deep or look inside and that might feel a lot more appealing to you now than just blaming them or life in general.

But you DO and DID play a role in your position. You're here. What do you want to do with your life?

Be the author of your life and don't let others write how the next chapters go. That is what you have done so far.


is NOT strong sounding or appealing. You use a passive voice in it and I don't know what your childhood was like but it's time to drop it from how you see yourself now. But you did react in similar in both scenarios.

You seem to be floating around like furniture that gets moved where OTHERS move it...and you are content to be there, until you get kicked out.

Women want partners or leaders...what do you make of that comment?



That is enough of a novel for now

You're a colllege professor, right? Okay so maybe you need to

get OUT of your head and get INTO your heart.

FEEL emotions and passions even if they are painful. But feel them and talk to a counselor.

Tell them what you have said here. Get their take on it.

Or look up the Essential Experience workshop back east. It's a profound experience that is for individuals and makes you a better partner and parent and a happier person, living with more clarity and intent.

I think you need it and would love it. IF your w is willing, try attending Retrovaille but that is for COUPLES and she may not be ready to do anything until if and when she believes you have changed.

HER time for change will come but as the one here posting about saving a marriage,

it is up to you/us to take the first step, and the second step and the next 452...

Keep at this. Don't give up.

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Thanks for stopping by 25!

I know that me financially pulling my weight is at least part of what my w means by being taken care of. My w is not capable of not working; she would go crazy. She may have a fantasy of having someone make enough money so that she doesn't have to work, but she would work. Also, she has always needed a lot of attention. She would not do well with somebody who worked a lot of hours and had little time for her. So there has to be balance.\

True


Right now, I could support us both and she could look for an easier job, but we are not together. I think that there is more to the being taken care of thing than the financial side.

of course there is. Did you read my post to you? It's pretty broad and fairly in depth.

Yes. Thank you. I could work on being more assertive and planning things for us to do as a couple. But doesn't this have to wait until we are in a relationship again? Maybe I could have given her a little more princess treatment when she was having a hard day at work. I would investigate noises, kill spiders, fix things around the house. Admittedly I did have trouble keeping up with her in doing my share of going above and beyond with taking care of the house or the yard. When I was out of work I did all the house work but I could have done more. I would spend my day looking for work and doing house work. I did get a little burnt out and instead of having dinner ready when she got home I would just say let's go out some times. I will address my work situation below

I am a 6 foot tall athletic type guy but I could probably do a better job of taking charge and being assertive.

SHE TOLD YOU she wants to be taken care of. As I asked before, what do YOU think she means?
i think she means that she doesn't want to be needed as a bread winner. I think she wants to have her needs and desires come first. I need to hear her hints of things she wants and make them happen.

And did I read correctly that you THINK but don't "know" that she is having an affair? Why do you believe that?

I am not sure I would call it an affair at this point. I believe that she is being sexually active. The only reason I even brought it up was to make a point to another DBer here. Then someone else caught on and I was explaining it to him.

More importantly, why would she?

She said she would be sexually active. Based on on her past, I believe that to be true. This is something that I can get past if we were to reconcile. But I think that her being involved with other men keeps her away from me at times. Maybe some mind reading here


I have met new people as part of my GAL. Not sure if w even knows. We don't have common friends and we are not Facebook friends. Any other ideas on being mysterious?

Does NOT matter if she knows. It's not about her. It's about YOU living YOUR LIFE WELL.

Any positive changes that result, will radiate from you whether or not she hears of them.

If you are GAL for her to notice, you are not GAL. You are manipulating and hoping the "tactic" works.

That's NOT true change in your life. Make sense?

Point taken. Thank you... I have your next post to respond to below

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Thank you for response 25.. I will finish responding to your questions in the morning. Than you for your support!!

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Hey Fly .. Thanks for stopping by! I will have to see if you updated your sitch.

At time of BD in February, there was ton of circumstantial evidence that w was seeing an OM. I don't know if anything physical would have started before BD or not. I never got any clarification on that. That OM is either over or it is casual and still going on, but not frequently. I am not 100% certain anything happened. It is a "Where there is smoke, there is fire" kind of thing.

Why I say that it is a virtual certainty that she has been physical since BD is because we have been separated for 8 months and when she left she said that "she needs sex". Before me, and after her first D, she was involved in other sexual relationships and some of them were very short lived.

Did you read the "rules" for newbies? Believe nothing they SAY and only Half of what they DO.

Why bother with the mind reading? Does it change a single behavior of YOURS? If not, stop torturing yourself.



I actually suspect that she may have gone back to a previous boyfriend or more like "sex buddy". She was clearly not involved in anything serious a month ago because she reached out to me for sex (even though it didn't happen).

useless speculation. No control over it and since you are separated and seem to be saying it's not a deal breaker, it's truly counter productive. And self inflicted pain. That's counter productive and worse, it's destructive. From within.

yes yes .. believe nothing that you hear and less than half of what they say... ... I know I should not trust her words since BD. Honestly I am not that bothered by it either way. I had brought it up top point out to JonF that it is something that I dealt with and got over bc he just starting dealing with a PA in his sitch. Then fly brought it up so I was trying to explain to him what happened. The potential of a PA bothered me a lot back in February and March but, now. I am much more concerned about her potentially finding a good match for her ... See below

I have a small amount of fear that she could actually find someone she likes and who likes her back.

Really? Most of us are MOST afraid of that happening. Why poo poo it? Of course it's a fear of yours. You spend A LOT of time thinking about it but you DO nothing about it. So, it's just a way to stay stuck. NOT Change...

I will talk more about my changes to ME and some GAL ideas below. But is there something else I can do? I struggle with not wanting to pursue.

W thinks of me as an ex now

so you say. So what? Every interaction is an opportunity to show her change in you.

Thing is, NO WAW comes home to a marriage unless she believes it will be better/different than before.

You seem to be shrugging your shoulders saying "well, nothing I can do...oh well"

and that shows. And it's sooo not a way to attract a woman back.


The last time I saw her was about three weeks ago. We had a good time and she text me after thanking me for the stress free evening. A couple days later she thanked me for signing her up for the course. I have tried to keep contact with her with occasional text messages, but she when she stops responding I back off. Our pattern had been to see each other every two weeks but last week she didn't ask to see me. I could have asked her, but did not want to pursue.


even though we have done no legal work toward a D or even separation. At this point it is hard for me to be upset with her for anything she does with another man because we are not together.

I get that. But it does not mean you give up. UNLESS you want to, but then you have to admit that and move on. Own that you are giving up.

Seems as if you are not into things that require a long haul amount of effort it if it means really digging deep and looking inside.

The real journey in life is an inward one. Do you get that?

Are you in any form of counselling? I hope so b/c there are a lot of things you skim the surface of, without wanting to really truly LOOK. I think that would be valuable.



Something about me which I have not brought up on my thread until now is that I suffer from adult ADD. I had Not been on medication the entire time I was with my W. I started taking medication for this problem right after BD and take it now.

I went to counseling for about three months after BD. After that time I didn't feel it was helpful. I will look into finding a new therapist.




My first w had an EA with the next door neighbor; that was very painful to watch. I held out hope,

you "held out hope"...but what did you DO? Did you even confront her or ask her why? Did you want to know?


but when she met a new guy OM2 and was physical with him, I couldn't take that pain and I moved on.

I don't mean to blame you. But these words sound as if you are saying "I did nothing to change and it happened again. So I left."

See what that looks like?

the EA with the neighbor was an affair. When OM2 got involved w1 had already said she was done with me and was moving on. I look at an A during separation differently than one that takes place while together. I did some things to change back then but clearly not enough.


My first w is now married to OM2 and they have a daughter together. My M to w1 ended 10 years ago and we all get along well. I co-parent with w1. She is still married to OM2

Current w told me that her first marriage ended because her h always had his friends around and they had no time as a couple. Also she placed a lot of blame on some weird sex stuff that went on...

I was pretty good with the GALs up until my fall classes started. (I teach at a community college) I am technically just part time but teaching a full load right now. I also develop education content for an online homework system and that is a 75% time job so I am have trouble GALing right now. I do get to the gym often and was racing sailboats over the summer.


here's a bit of a 2 x 4 for you. So get a helmet on. And remember that I'm here trying to help you so that you don't end up here again and MAYBE so you can save this marriage. B/C it's your second one and I can't tell if you learned a thing about yourself, from your first marriage's ending.

That is why most second marriages end in divorce. Only the marriages that end AND TEACH one something about oneself, help improve the relationship skills involved. Otherwise it's just a repeat of the past patterns but with a new person.

Your first wife had not one, but TWO affairs. You sound as if you did not do any work on yourself during or after the first, so yeah, she kept looking for a sub and she eventually found one. ANY insights as to why?

(Maybe now that you two are reasonably peaceful, you could sincerely ask her what she thinks...)

First, imo, GAL does NOT mean just going to the gym. That's for your personal health and it IS good to go.

but it's not new or involving other people or expanding your horizons or pushing your comfort zone or you learning something new or novel or doing something you always wanted to do but held back...

it's just getting in shape. DO MORE. I don't care what your excuses are b/c they are just that.

Here are SOME of the things I did in the interior of Alaska, including in the winter when it was dark 21 hours a day and well below minus 20'F.

I had a baby at the time. An infant turned toddler...

I worked out a lot and looked good

( I either scheduled with older kids help or used the gym that had daycare)

I joined a writer's group. Met some smart people who had interesting "messages."

I used a tanning booth (B/c even though skin cancer risks were bad, it was still better than blowing my brains out...if you take my point)

I saw a therapist, and in the winter I took some anti-depressants.

I volunteered at a woman's shelter, helped others and felt grateful

I took a Conversational French class and later, an Italian cooking class.

I did stand up comedy there (they needed to laugh!) Have done it professionally since.

I auditioned for local community theater roles. Got cast and Met super fun people.

I learned to cross country ski, and went deep sea fishing and yes I hunted some big game too. Did a lot of target shooting too.

Joined the Bd of Director's for Alaskan Wrestling, as our son wrestled and it was a good way to meet other parents and support the team.

I learned to fly, to get my pilot's license

AND I went skydiving. (That was the ONLY GAL activity that costs much. & The symbolism of skydiving was crucial for ME internally and spiritually).

I edited a hunting book. Jobs were scarce and I could do it from home. Turned out to be a best seller.

I volunteered at the kids' schools for PTA and field trips when possible.

I took a pottery class (Very unlike me).

I painted a few colorful paintings to get some color on our WHITE walls (with the snow outside the landscape often looked like black and white film).

I finally joined the Wives Club (I had resisted that for out-dated reasons). I'd been a fool for delaying.

I made two LIFE LONG friends there, and without those women, I am not sure I'd have made it through 3 winters there.

Without them, I'd have had to go south for months at a time and taken the baby with me, and who knows what that would do to our older kids.

I coached two teams.

You can do more. I had a baby, two other kids, lived in a small COLD DARK place, and did what I listed above. I'm probably leaving out a few things too.

Put yourself out more. I read your words and the following words & images come to mind

"apathy", "floating along..", "hoping but not doing"...."waiting to see"

and "Holding back"...and STUCK



WOW 25!!! That is pretty amazing and inspiring. My cousin lived in Alaska for a year and I never visited. I wish I would have. I had been spending a lot of time with friends and making new ones and doing a lot of outdoor activities. Now I find myself working all the time. I am working two jobs right now and 60 plus hours per week and I have full kid responsibilities every other week, driving to two different schools, football practice etc. Anyway.. I am going to find some meetup groups for one or two nights a weeks. I can do more!
To me it sort of feels like w may be pulling away a little more, but it might all be in my head. When I had more of a life, time when by faster. Right now I am taking a step back to see what w does next.

Think that makes her feel taken care of, or what?

I mean, how much effort does that take on your end? Oh, none...note that

I guess I am stuck here. I want to be proactive but avoid smothering her. What can I do? Should I ask her to meet with me more often? You may recall that back in July I had asked w to go to Vegas with me and I would pay for everything. She agreed to go and even seemed excited. A few days before we were to leave was our anniversary. She even texted me happy anniversary. Then a day later she canceled the trip without explanation. She never told me why. I still have credit for that trip. After she canceled, I stepped back and let her lead on when we would meet up


My birthday is in a few weeks and then we have the holidays. I have plans to spend the time with my family, but I am curious to see if w reaches out to spend some time with me.

Why not take some control of your life? MAKE PLANS YOURSELF that are appealing to YOU and invite her or whomever. It's YOUR birthday. Don't make your kids or your wife guess what you want to do.

Invite your friends and family and DO SOMETHING FUN. Be appealing and interesting and interestED


I have plans for dinner with kids for my bday but was not going to ask w to do anything. I thought that would be too much.

According to w1 the reason our m ended was that I could not get along with her family. According to current w, I was not pulling my weight in the relationship.



What do YOU THINK the reason the marriages ended was? I mean, your first w had two affairs you know of, and left you for OM2.

What do you think she meant by saying you did not get along with her family?

RE the present wife, who ought to be the main focus now, what do YOU believe she means and what, if any, validity do you feel there might be to her feeling you don't pull your weight? It's not all about money according to you.

So, maybe it's effort WITHIN the relationship. That's my guess.


I was out of work at the time of BD.

probably VERY significant, don't you think? I mean, seriously...did you read the post I wrote to you?

What is your standard of living? And will hers go UP or down after a divorce from you? It sounds crass but it needs looking at. The whole cave thing, the biological needs and the provider deal...might not be fair, but it does exist in many women I think.

IS the reason you got work, b/c of the BD? What would you have done otherwise? How long had you been out of work?

when it came to vacations, family activities, and dates I need to do more of the planning and organizing and taking care of logistics. W is a manager type.. She liked to manage but I could have done more. I tried this with the Vegas thing but that fell thru

Over a year w will make more money than me, but I am making a higher monthly right now. Come January I will have much less work and will need to look for more. My contract work is busy late summer and fall but dry during winter and spring. I will not have any classes from April to June. I am saving enough to cover bills and have a home business that will bring in money. I own a home in one of the more expensive parts of the country. When I was out of work before, it was a slow time for teaching and my contract work. I knew I would get more. I need to do better filling in the gaps. If w and I are together sharing expenses we are both better off..

Current w also said she was not satisfied with our sex life (more recent conversations lead me to believe that she didn't think it was that bad).


"not that bad"...is that a ringing endorsement of passion or what? Come on 2nd, you have to DIG DEEP and face some stuff about yourself and

find what we all find when we do that

flaws we want and need to work on. CHANGE and GROW...


ask yourself how desired your wife felt in the marriage. How much did you SHOW her you wanted her and were willing to pursue her? Be honest about it.

I don't hear ANYTHING about pursuing her here. When we say "read the rules" we don't say they ALL apply. if you were neglectufl, or inattentive, then playing it cool is NOT the best route for you.

make sense?

.

I have done a lot of reading about women's needs and sex and I think I can do better. I hope to get that opportunity.

Nonetheless I will work on that for whatever relationship I find myself in next.
Both w's fell out of love with me. Still I am in the same position twice and need to figure out the common things.

My gut says your utter lack of intiative or strong reaction, or showing any passion, (can't tell if you feel it but you don't sound like you show it at all)

and the way you portray yourself as helpless, as if "it happened to you and you played NO role"... "both wives FELL OUT of love with me"

how on earth can you not feel terrified of that always happening if you have nothing to do with it?

Of course you played a role and that ought to make you happy b/c it means you are NOT HELPLESS

you are empowered to learn that you played a role in the demise of your first marriage b/c then you CAN do something about it.

If you were a great husband and wives just "fell out of love" with you, then life and marriage would sure sukk.

You'd be powerless...but then, you would not have to dig deep or look inside and that might feel a lot more appealing to you now than just blaming them or life in general.

But you DO and DID play a role in your position. You're here. What do you want to do with your life?

Be the author of your life and don't let others write how the next chapters go. That is what you have done so far.


is NOT strong sounding or appealing. You use a passive voice in it and I don't know what your childhood was like but it's time to drop it from how you see yourself now. But you did react in similar in both scenarios.

You seem to be floating around like furniture that gets moved where OTHERS move it...and you are content to be there, until you get kicked out.

Women want partners or leaders...what do you make of that comment?


You're right. I have a lot of work to do on me. I am making slow progress on me. But I do see a light at the end of the tunnel for me. I really need to do a better job WITHIN a relationship. I don't feel like I am in one right now. My opportunities to show w I would be better within a M are pretty rare. Based on the feedback I get from w, I think I do a good job when I am with her, but things don't move forward.

That is enough of a novel for now

You're a colllege professor, right? Okay so maybe you need to

get OUT of your head and get INTO your heart.

FEEL emotions and passions even if they are painful. But feel them and talk to a counselor.

Tell them what you have said here. Get their take on it.

Or look up the Essential Experience workshop back east. It's a profound experience that is for individuals and makes you a better partner and parent and a happier person, living with more clarity and intent.

I think you need it and would love it. IF your w is willing, try attending Retrovaille but that is for COUPLES and she may not be ready to do anything until if and when she believes you have changed.

HER time for change will come but as the one here posting about saving a marriage,

it is up to you/us to take the first step, and the second step and the next 452...

Keep at this. Don't give up.

I don't think w is ready for retrovaille right now. We live separate lives and she refers to me as her ex. I can't afford a trip east right now. I will try to find help locally. About 5 weeks ago w was texting me to hookup for sex. I pursued that a week later but she backed off saying I would have too many emotions involved. Knowing her, I think that she was more protecting herself rather than me. If we could get involved intimately, I think that would be a huge opportunity for me to show her that I could take care of her. I don't know how to make that happen.

thank you so much for your input 25. Did I miss something in my response? I love my w and want this to work so much and at time it feels so close but then things don't move forward. When I try to move things forward a little more it seems like she backs away.