Questions on the 37 rules and other advice...

[AnotherStander]

So we are looking to rent a place ASAP. The problem is that my wife wants to move there alone (or with the kids, but without me). I fear this will communicate to our daughter that I am the one "leaving" since the three of them will be in their place together and I will still be living with family.

Does anyone think any of this is important?

Absolutely, it's very important. Normally we advise the LBS not to leave the home because the kids view their home as a safe place and the person they see leaving the home is the one they think is "abandoning" them. So if the LBS allows the WAS to kick them out, it can actually make it appear to the kids as if the LBS is the WAS. In your case it's a very tricky sitch because you're in temporary living arrangements right now, but I guess my question is why is W taking the kids? I realize you're living with family, but can you at least arrange to have them half of the time?

[AnotherStander]

1) Should I say anything to speed up the S? From what I am hearing, there's a good chance she won't see her need to change, or come anywhere close to wanting to reconcile, until S happens.

No. Read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough", I think I suggested it earlier. It will address this. Basically in Dobson's terms you need to throw open the cage door, let her know you support her in whatever decision SHE makes. But it is HER decision to make. Your attitude should be that you want her to stay and work on the M, but you respect her wishes and if she feels that she needs to leave to be happy then you are not going to stand in her way. Read the book, you'll find it helpful.

If S occurs, what in the world do we/I/she tell our D(5)?

It's tough to explain to kids that young, but the thought you want to drive home more than anything is that it is not her fault that this is happening, and that no matter what happens you will both love her unconditionally and you will both always be there for her. Kids' biggest fears in D are that they did something wrong that contributed to it and that they are going to lose a parent in the process. So focus on those things. And have followups, because they need support throughout the process, not just once at the beginning of it.

[S4tk]

So we are looking to rent a place ASAP. The problem is that my wife wants to move there alone (or with the kids, but without me). I fear this will communicate to our daughter that I am the one "leaving" since the three of them will be in their place together and I will still be living with family.

Does anyone think any of this is important?

Absolutely, it's very important. Normally we advise the LBS not to leave the home because the kids view their home as a safe place and the person they see leaving the home is the one they think is "abandoning" them. So if the LBS allows the WAS to kick them out, it can actually make it appear to the kids as if the LBS is the WAS. In your case it's a very tricky sitch because you're in temporary living arrangements right now, but I guess my question is why is W taking the kids? I realize you're living with family, but can you at least arrange to have them half of the time?

Yes. Your reply made me realize that if she does want to move to the new place by herself, then I should keep the kids here at my parents' place. Since we have been here a month, and last year were we here on furlough for 4 months - the kids do see it as a kind of home. So if they continue to stay while W moves into the new place, then it will communicate to them that when they go to her, it will be like visiting. This probably sounds like a better idea, eh?

[S4tk]

1) Should I say anything to speed up the S? From what I am hearing, there's a good chance she won't see her need to change, or come anywhere close to wanting to reconcile, until S happens.

No. Read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough", I think I suggested it earlier. It will address this. Basically in Dobson's terms you need to throw open the cage door, let her know you support her in whatever decision SHE makes. But it is HER decision to make. Your attitude should be that you want her to stay and work on the M, but you respect her wishes and if she feels that she needs to leave to be happy then you are not going to stand in her way. Read the book, you'll find it helpful.

If S occurs, what in the world do we/I/she tell our D(5)?

It's tough to explain to kids that young, but the thought you want to drive home more than anything is that it is not her fault that this is happening, and that no matter what happens you will both love her unconditionally and you will both always be there for her. Kids' biggest fears in D are that they did something wrong that contributed to it and that they are going to lose a parent in the process. So focus on those things. And have followups, because they need support throughout the process, not just once at the beginning of it.

I bought "Love Must be Tough" and am already about half way through it AS. I am wondering - since the book focuses on WAS's who are having affairs, would my approach maybe be different?

Before the "Open the Cage" speech (which I will only give when she initiates a separation talk, and after listening well to her), should I reiterate the fact that I am remorseful for the part I have played in her loss of love?

I kind of see it like this. My faults primarily led to her losing respect, feeling trapped, and losing the love, even if she never talked about her unhappiness and even if I was blind to them. Her faults have driven the last three months, and if we ultimately divorce, she will be responsible for that decision.

I have apologized, and expressed regret, but it was mostly during the begging/pleading period. Thoughts?

[Fartiltre]

S4tk,


Look at your WAW as though she is having an affair!
It might not be with an OM, it might not even be with some imaginary man but it for sure is with another way of life that she right now believes will make her happier.
Read through the rest of the book and do not rush into giving any speeches at all. You can easily apply the book you are reading to other things than OM. If not then read it again!

I have been through the lot as you know and my advice for you right now is keep on reading. When you get through Dobson then open the next one. Educate yourselves a little further before you start deciding/acting.
I would recommend N.U.T.s as the next book and then off course other sitches in here!
You need to educate yourselves on two matters: The way of the WAW and YOU. By you I mean you need to realize your faults, what changed that made W fall out of love, who were you, who are you and who do you want to be – you need to dig into you and look at the person you find. I recommend N.U.T.s because it helped me tremendously in this process – perhaps it can do the same for you. When you know who you are you can start working on becoming who you want to be. Perhaps W will fall in love with this guy!
Also consider working your listening skills: You have AS along and he is the master of validating – read up on this in his thread/post or simply google it. Also google WAW – there a lot of info in cyberspace!

I know you would properly like to read success-stories to keep your hope and spirit but trust me when I tell you that you will learn plenty by just following the ongoing sitches in here. Pick some that you believe is close to your own (that means LBHs posting) and start reading. By that I mean read through it all and from then on follow the sitch. Most WAWs follow script and most LBHs seems to follow the same path at first - so just get going!
At the same time I will tell you that sitches, books, success-stories won’t keep up your hope only you can do this. IMHO hope and even better believing is the most important thing to all of this! Know that this can be done, it will be done again and it might be you!

You seem to have your emotions reasonable controlled – that’s great so keep it that way and apply the 48 hour rule to almost everything right now! Do not act on emotions for now! Every time you feel like reaching out to W simply wait 48 hours in doing so – simple, doable and extremely effective! Your emotions will change, you will feel turmoil and urge to act – 48 hours!!
Practice the sentence: “W, I simply need to give this a thought or two and then I’ll get back to you on this one, OK?”
You need to have a few other wordings with the same meaning. She will properly come at you and if you feel emotions rising then use this, back off, take some time, get advice in here and don’t say or do anything you might regret later!


Accept that you properly have a long way in front of you. It seems like you have done this but make sure it is truly done and that this have sunk in! Try going back to my first or second thread and read the advice from VETs in these. I believe you will find valuable information there!

Realize that I am not a VET so go with them if they tell you otherwise.

Keep posting and keep hoping! It can be done!

F

[AnotherStander]

So if they continue to stay while W moves into the new place, then it will communicate to them that when they go to her, it will be like visiting. This probably sounds like a better idea, eh?

Exactly!

I bought "Love Must be Tough" and am already about half way through it AS. I am wondering - since the book focuses on WAS's who are having affairs, would my approach maybe be different?

I agree with what F said. In my opinion there are 3 types of affairs- EA (emotional), PA (physical) and IA (imaginary). In absence of an actual OP, the WAS almost always imagines there is a perfect OP that is waiting just beyond their grasp, and as soon as they can unload the LBS they'll be able to find their prince charming OP and live happily ever after. In many ways an IA is the toughest for an LBS to compete against because it's easy to imagine a perfect OP whereas an affair with an actual OP will sooner or later expose the realities of another person's quirks and faults.

should I reiterate the fact that I am remorseful for the part I have played in her loss of love?

If you've made a genuine apology to her already, then there's no need to apologize again. Many LBSs make the mistake of apologizing over and over again. It's tiresome to the WAS and makes the LBS look desperate and needy. It also downplays the WAS's role in the M falling apart.

[S4tk]

F - I like the 48 hour rule. I applied it a few times over the last few days.

SA - After processing for about a week, I did feel the need to offer a genuine apology. I feel like anything else I had said in the way of repentance or apology (up to this point) was during the begging/pleading/ "she must be depressed or hormonal or going insane" phase of things during the first 6 weeks when I was obsessively trying to fix her. So I feel that anything I might have owned at that point was drowned out by the louder voice - the one where I was telling her basically there must be something on her end causing all this.

So, two nights ago I asked her if we could talk the next night (last night) and I just calmly but genuinely laid out some of what I have been learning in therapy and processing individually - namely that for whatever reason (several factors actually) I have been an avoider and even hater of emotion, both in my life and hers and others. I actually have little idea how to connect on a heart level.

This seemed important to her because she shed many tears. She opened up and talked about her own family and how it was hard for her. She talked about us enabling one another in our weaknesses.

Later during the same conversation, it felt appropriate so I then worked in the "cage door" type speech that Dobson recommends. I let her know I was standing for our marriage but that I would not chase her and that she is free to go.

I feel that this step was necessary before I begin to employ the "tough love" kind of approach of DR and Dobson. I reminded myself not to expect any positive reaction from her, so the willingness on her part to listen and even talk was a welcome surprise.

I think that now, at this point, I am ready to follow the "dim" advise which I have been reading about in different sitch's here: not initiating R talks, GALing, etc.

[S4tk]

I have been processing three questions that I would like DB opinions about:

1) Some of W's main reasons for loss of love and desiring S have been the control, manipulation, stealing her voice, as she puts it. Again, these are words that she used for the first time in 11 years. But I am trying to see the validity in them. I think working on listening skills, and giving up control, not initiating R talks, being willing to "be happy instead of being right" - all of these are 180's I am beginning to make. But another longer-term issue has been the lack of E connection, and lack of physical affection outside of ML. These are indeed issues that have been weak points on my part. At the moment, W has disallowed any form of touching at all. So, my question for fellow DBers is, "How can I 180 on emotional connection and physical affection in this context?

2) Also, since the lack of emotional connection has been an issue, should this then make me think twice about the idea of going dark?

3) I see that this IA she is having with other fantasy husbands, or with some kind of ideal future, is a strong pull. I see she is confused. I also see that at the moment, she is in a kind of dreamland as she preps her resume, sloooooowly applies for jobs, etc. Since we need to leave our temporary housing soon (we just moved back to this area and are renting from family) she has asked a few times, "What are we going to to?" referring to our living situation. One time, I replied that my desire is we move as a family to another place. However, I feel that in many ways our living together is enabling her to not deal with the crisis on her end. For example, at least half of the mornings she sleeps until late into the morning while I am up with the kids - getting them fed and ready, getting myself ready, preparing for the day. I have some flexibility in my work schedule, so it isn't a big deal. But I believe the reality of S would quickly show her some reality. We have been basically S under the same roof for 3 months now. I think the lack of a real PA or EA is making me handle this cautiously - if those existed I might have drawn a "choose the affair or this family" kind of boundary by now. I would like advice in this. Should I continue to endure the current setup which is basically a full-blown S except for the fact we live together? DoI keep holding steady in this, knowing my faults contributed to her current position?

[S4tk]

I think the hardest part of this is the subtle difference between manipulation and a self-motivated 180. This is especially relevant as I consider whether to draw a line in the sand for her in terms of what I require in order for her to stay.

On one hand, I think that if I tell her that she either needs to choose to stop pursuing her imaginary better life, and engage with me as a W again - kindness, warmth, emotional and eventually physical intimacy, etc... OR I need her to choose to move out... I think the process of her moving out and all of the conversations about children visits, finances, etc., would have a good chance after some months to give her perspective and possibly space she needs to love again. I will call this the hand of manipulation.

On the other hand, from my faith I am taught to endure all things in love, and to bear with a lack of love, returning forgiveness and grace. In other words, I cannot honestly do the above (the first "hand" scenario) for ME, because I believe the most "true to myself" sitch for me is to continue to endure this strange situation.

So the problem with the first "hand" is that it is probably stemming from a manipulative desire to fix her more quickly.

The problem with the second is that I am having a hard time figuring out how to go dim or dark or do appropriate 180s in a situation where we are living together and interacting several times a day. It is also draining to have to see her every day and not treat her like my W.

Caught between a rock and a hard place.

My IC suggests that I choose a third way, which he is calling the way of the heart. This is because my avoidance of emotions, which he has gone so far as to call a contempt for feeling, has been part of what has brought us to this point. I have done a poor job of providing empathy and understanding to my W. For this reason, he thinks going dark or dim might go against the 180 of finding my emotional self again and learning how to not hate emotion. He feels this is the most important 180 I can pursue, both for myself and any hope for restoration in the M.

[AnotherStander]

1) Some of W's main reasons for loss of love and desiring S have been the control, manipulation, stealing her voice, as she puts it. Again, these are words that she used for the first time in 11 years.

Do take her seriously and change yourself accordingly, but also keep in mind that WAS's engage in a lot of rewriting of history, and especially of making things seem a lot worse than they really were.

But I am trying to see the validity in them. I think working on listening skills, and giving up control, not initiating R talks, being willing to "be happy instead of being right" - all of these are 180's I am beginning to make.

All great stuff!

At the moment, W has disallowed any form of touching at all. So, my question for fellow DBers is, "How can I 180 on emotional connection and physical affection in this context?

You can't. When it comes to these just file them away for now. If and when you get to piecing then you can work on these, but unfortunately you can't right now because it's pressure and pursuit.

2) Also, since the lack of emotional connection has been an issue, should this then make me think twice about the idea of going dark?

Personally I am not a fan of going dark, for the reason MWD spells out in DR. If the LBS was perceived by the WAS as cold and distant (as is often the case), then going dark will be perceived as "more of the same" behavior.

I would like advice in this. Should I continue to endure the current setup which is basically a full-blown S except for the fact we live together? DoI keep holding steady in this, knowing my faults contributed to her current position?

Hold steady and let her make the decisions. This is what the whole "open the cage door" concept is about- you open the door and get out of the way. It's her choice whether to step through the door or not. Any tinkering you do to try to force her to do something is going to be perceived by her as controlling and manipulative, which you've already mentioned is an issue for her. So find a way to be content with your current sitch. Make the most of it.