Suckerpunch (the process)

[Pudmuddle]

Beautifully expressed PM.

...and something I agree with as well. Thank you for putting this in writing.

This is going in my things to reread lists.

[jp787]

You know what *I'm* tired of? Divorce being too easy and acceptable of an option. I have NEVER witnessed a wedding where the vows exchanged went something like this:

"I, (person), take you, (person), to be my lawfully wedded husband/wife, to have and told from this day forward. I promise to be true and faithful to you, in good times and bad, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, until death parts us...

...unless you WEAR ME OUT with your incessant nagging, or until you gain 40 lbs, or have have an affair with your secretary, or have an affair with your job, or until you start to remind me too much of your mother instead of the woman I married, or until we don't have sex as often as I would like, or until you become indifferent towards the kids, or until you lose your job and become depressed for too long, or until I don't "feel" it anymore, or until I find someTHING or someONE more exciting."

Has anyone been to that ^^ ceremony? Because THAT'S how we treat marriage, so maybe that's what we should actually say. At least we would be honest with ourselves.

*I'm* tired of the accepted culture that surrounds marriage in this country in general. I'm tired of the fact that divorce is COMMON. I'm tired of hearing that "the kids will be okay" or even "better off" when what every child truly deserves is a loving mother and father joined forever in unconditional love and mutual subjection that raises them in security and peace.

My wife left me. That is a fact. But I left her too - prior to that - just not in a legal sense. And I accept that. But damned if I don't honor my word, my promise to her, while I have my wits about me. C.S. Lewis once wrote,

“The promise, made when I am in love and because I am in love, to be true to the beloved as long as I live, commits me to being true even if I cease to be in love. A promise must be about things that I can do, about actions: no one can promise to go on feeling in a certain way. He might as well promise to never have a headache or always to feel hungry.”

Marriage is - or used to be - a covenant, not a contract. Marriage USED to mean the union of ONE man and ONE woman - now it means the union of ONE man and ONE woman...at a time. I know everyone doesn't think the same way as I do, but it's got mean something more than it does to us now. I know there are people - even people here - who are have gone through unimaginable pain and suffering, horrible and abusive relationships that were just cause for divorce, and I don't want to pick at the scabs these people have in incredibly sensitive areas of their life, but there is no way these relationships account for 50% of marriages.

No way.

This lackadaisical mentality towards the idea of marriage is having a huge effect on us and future generations. We have to get to a point where we live and teach that successful marriage has much less to do with marrying the person we love and much more to do with loving the person we marry. Marrying the person we love is a great start, but that's all it is: a start. As I read recently, when we marry we carry "the responsibility to care for and raise children, cherish our spouses, and build enduring, stable homes which can nurture a true family."

Marriage is a very serious matter and commitment, NOT a lackadaisical one. I know I wish I had taken marriage more seriously and treated it with the respect it deserved. Unfortunately my children have to carry the burden of my poor decisions and the lackadaisical attitude I had toward the covenant I made with my wife.

My apologies for the off-topic rant in someone else's thread. It isn't directed at anyone, I just used the last line of 25yearsmlc's post as a springboard to jot down some thoughts that have been bouncing around in my brain. She, as always, has good advice to be taken and considered very seriously.

-PM

Wow, Awesome!

I stand on the ground that I failed my marriage. Yes it takes two, but my W tried and tried and tried until she couldn’t anymore. I left the marriage a long time ago. I did not take my vows seriously at all.

I love your post.

[AnotherStander]

When you say, I shouldn't say wife left the marriage, who should I say did?

People don't leave good, happy, healthy marriages. They leave shattered, broken, miserable marriages. Our marriages fell apart long before our spouses left, we just turned a blind eye to it. Your W would probably say you left the M a long time before she did. But again, don't try to keep score or assign blame, that just leads to anger and resentment. Your M imploded due to actions on both your parts, just leave it at that.

I provided a nice home. I built it with my own hands, from foundation to roof and did every bit of upkeep and repair.

A home which you say has zero equity because you say you never owned it, because it's owned by the business. If so then you built it for the family business, not for your W. That's the point that I think 25 is trying to make, on the one hand you claim to be a great provider but on the other hand you claim you don't owe your W anything because you have zero home equity, zero savings, etc.

I worked, (and continue to work for daughter and myself), to keep our home beautiful. I took care of the yard, I took care of our cars.

I remember saying these same things about my sitch. Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy? It's not what the name implies, it's more a study of the "nice guy" syndrome and how seemingly nice guys are not nice at all, but are hiding some serious character flaws behind things like clean cars and a well-kept yard. The book helped me to realize how much of ^^^that^^^ stuff I was doing to gain validation from others. Also there's another book (Venus/ Mars maybe) that goes into how men typically assign value to material possessions, but women don't. So we think women should be happy because we give them all the trappings of a nice life, but their value system is completely different, it's based on personal relationships and emotional connection. If we don't give them that then all the possessions in the world don't mean anything to them.

[25yearsmlc]

When you say, I shouldn't say wife left the marriage, who should I say did?

People don't leave good, happy, healthy marriages. They leave shattered, broken, miserable marriages. Our marriages fell apart long before our spouses left, we just turned a blind eye to it.


Exactly. She's NOT insane. So it was not a happy or good m, or even "good enough" marriage, for HER....for awhile.

Your W would probably say you left the M a long time before she did. But again, don't try to keep score or assign blame, that just leads to anger and resentment. Your M imploded due to actions on both your parts, just leave it at that.

PLEASE just leave it at that. The scorecard is bad news. I think how SP compared the marriage to a ship off course, and her leaving it, to her jumping off, is FLAWED.

to HER, the ship was sinking and she did not want to go down with it.

So she got on the only life raft she had left, (b/c to HER, enough chances had been given and things were not improving between you two. I don't know her scorecard or stubborness. I only know yours but it's real and it's all you can work on)

I think she hoped that the raft would take her somewhere kinder, somewhere happier or at least not so heaving and tilting that she felt sea sick often...

I provided a nice home. I built it with my own hands, from foundation to roof and did every bit of upkeep and repair.

A home which you say has zero equity because you say you never owned it, because it's owned by the business. If so then you built it for the family business, not for your W. That's the point that I think 25 is trying to make, on the one hand you claim to be a great provider but on the other hand you claim you don't owe your W anything because you have zero home equity, zero savings, etc.


YES!!! EXACTLY!!!

I worked, (and continue to work for daughter and myself), to keep our home beautiful. I took care of the yard, I took care of our cars.

I remember saying these same things about my sitch. Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy? It's not what the name implies, it's more a study of the "nice guy" syndrome and how seemingly nice guys are not nice at all, but are hiding some serious character flaws behind things like clean cars and a well-kept yard. The book helped me to realize how much of ^^^that^^^ stuff I was doing to gain validation from others.

AS you are mind reading --- SUCCESSFULLY-- b/c that is what I was trying, however feebly, to get at.


Also there's another book (Venus/ Mars maybe) that goes into how men typically assign value to material possessions, but women don't. So we think women should be happy because we give them all the trappings of a nice life, but their value system is completely different, it's based on personal relationships and emotional connection. If we don't give them that then all the possessions in the world don't mean anything to them.

YES AS, (again!)

Also SP, b/c she NOW wants some financial pay off after her years of marriage and you see none for her, that does not make her a liar when she said she didn't value the "things" you provided.

My guess is She wanted time with you that was not tumultuous, and some affirmations from you. No belittling commentary or need to be right and I don't think she enjoys arguing as you did. In fact we know she didn't.

The house is a home she does NOT get anything from (so why say you provided her a home that was hers??)

AND she does not get to live there either, b/c she's in some storage room but you say that is generous of you b/c she's not out on the street. YOU could have taken the storage area but nope, you put the mother of your child in it.

In many circles that is seen as NOT gallant. Maybe that's why your mom offered her something so she wouldn't be on the street...which I guess you were okay with??

Only you get to live in the house that YOU built, as if only you built it. And that's how it sounded when you wrote that.

So i guess she was just eating bon bons when you were hammering something?

OR does she simply not do construction work, like 99% of women, and she supported your efforts in other ways?

I mean, do you really hear how you sound? IMO, You did NOT provide her the home. You provided it to yourself and your d, OH--as long as your d is with you.

When you die, your d won't get it, right?

So it's really a long term rental for you (life estate?) and you alone, unless YOU happen to be with someone else. But THEY will have no equity in it and no "right" to live there. Only you do.

Not such a "good provision" in my mind...

In my "biological cave man theory" of marriage,

What most women want in a marriage AND home, is security. That means physical security, like the roof won't leak in the rain and the doors will lock and keep bad guys out.
ANd they want security in their marriages, so they feel protected by their man and that means there is food in the house and the baby will be fed, and that means their man will protect them against enemies "foreign and domestic" like the bad guys who would break in, AND the family members who would criticize...

men & women want to know their spouse is loyal to them FIRST, not their famly of origin. So if your mom or other family members were ever critical of her,

or if she believes they were (and we know she does) then it was your job to stop them from doing that. You must choose your wife over everyone else, (or h)

or you won't have a spouse who feels your loyalty. And that will eat away at them.

When my family makes a joke about an eccentricity of my h's, if it's in good fun or complimentary in some way, (his attention to detail) and IF it does NOT bother him, I can laugh.

But if and when it ever crosses over, I speak up to my family BEFORE my h has to.

It has been decades since anyone would dare say something bad about him in front of me.

And i'm fine with that. I hope you come to really get this b/c in your next r, you will need to handle it early on and nip it in the bud. Do NOT wait for it to go away by ignoring it. Stomp it out yourself, handle the day or week of awkward feelings in lieu of years of resentment and pain,

and let your new love know she's first. OTOH before you remarry, if your family dislikes the new love and you cannot discount their beliefs for being flawed (like if they are being bigoted)

if they know/love you and are not coming from a dark place in them,

then listen up. Families usually have valuable insights about our r's.

But that does not mean they help the r's once they think you are hurting. Often they make it a lot worse.

My h tried to avoid conflict about religion, between his mom and me. If he had been open about it, long LONG ago, I would have been fine simply allowing two baptisms and two ceremonies. No skin off my back.

But he thought I'd be upset so he never told me and his mother deeply resented a promise he made to her but did NOT tell me about.

For years she believed I had reneged on that promise, and she began mistreating me and he refused to see it. I gotta tell you, that alone could have ended our marriage b/c I felt he was cowardly and disloyal to me

and the kids saw it too.

but we moved away (talk about conflict avoidance!) and so I never really knew about the promises made and not shared, until her death bed.

His "avoidance" of conflict directly led to MORE CONFLICT and prolonged conflict.

I cannot over emphasize the value of getting it out and resolving things BEFORE they have lasted a decade.

And then, going from this day forward...

[sayitaintso]

I say, "Go ahead and own it ALL" b/c she will never know, and you won't waste time on thinking about her or measuring and you might even stay working on you.

I like that. I will try to look at my situation more so in that way.

Be careful with this SP...I did that for a long while and it sapped me with guilt and depression. I get what 25 is trying to get you to see but be careful completley owning the demise of your M unless you can do it from the outside looking in to further grow and learn from this.

[adinva]

I think it's not meant to cause you to beat yourself down with blame. It's always meant to me hope rather than guilt. Because if I have found things in this that are my responsibility then I can work on them and have a better life ahead. It is a complete waste of time to sit and consider what my H needs to change, or what Suckerpunch's wife needs to change, those things are not in our control.

It feels good to be able to say it's their fault too, or even mostly their fault, or the old standby it was both our fault but more so theirs because they're the ones who "chose" to leave. But that good feeling is fleeting. The good feeling that comes from owning your own stuff and working on it, is permanent. And way more attractive.

[sayitaintso]

Well said Ad. Great perspective and one that only can be had after a lot of time and a lot of work.

[MrCAS]

SP... You have got to be the biggest scorekeeper I have ever seen... I have read every post ever made on your threads and my desk just can't take the abuse I have subjected it to with head bangings and fist poundings any longer...

What bothers me is is that you make a great insight thought and then add, "however" or "but" and sprout a negative thought that wipes out what you just said. One step up... One and half back.

The break through moment in my life was really owning my part. Taking stock of my good points and seriously looking at my flaws.

You have to own them. With NO "howevers" or "buts".

[AnotherStander]

25, that's the most validation I've gotten in I-don't-know-how-long and I've got to say, it felt great, especially coming from you

SP, I hope you don't feel beat up, as always we are here because we really care for you and are pulling for you. I know you're still hurting, for most of us this is the most difficult struggle of our lives and I'm sure you're right there too. This is the time where you will learn just how much strength you have, strength that you probably didn't know you had in fact. Focus on that strength and build upon it. Let your W go and make yourself that great person we all know you can be. You can do this!

[swoop]

I don't feel beat up at all. There are a ton of excellent words and advice here. I am taking it all in. I appreciate the input from everyone on this forum, more than I can express. You have ALL helped me as I am working through this. It is difficult. It has changed me. I will continue to improve myself. Slowly, I am getting there. Yesterday was a hard day. Today is better. Tomorrow will be better than the day before!