Since you went away....

[BrightFuture]

Rosa, good to hear that you are recovering from your surgery nicely. I agree with FY, that there is something to hope for after this conversation. So, RT is on his case and pressuring him hard. You need to distance yourself and act like you are moving on with your life and looking forward to your future. And let’s see what your H is going to decide for himself. We always want what we cannot get, right. He can get RT any time, but you need to make him feel that he can lose you… and the house that he likes so much… etc. Patience, my hear Rosa… Let RT do the work for you.

[Notlikingthis]

!

Then he told me many reasons he is afraid to marry her, including she is a big mouth and argumentative and always has to be right and never takes any blame when she is wrong. She thinks she knows everything, and he keeps catching her in lies or exaggerations. She is pushy and aggressive.
 

RL,

The above statement could have been made by just about every mlcer that has an ow/om. Most of them don't actually admit it to their spouse/SO. As you may have read on my thread, my h said pretty much the same thing about his ow. The only difference is that he realizes that she is after him for the money, she pretty much told him that on Blow-out #6. All of the negative qualities that RT has are surely going to be magnified as time passes. Don't you wish you could ask them why they'd put up with such nonsense? Unfortunately, they have to learn that on their own. If they didn't have such low self esteem they would realize that those "qualities" are not what makes a marriage last! LOL! Your h is as nutty as the rest.

You did very well with your responses and held your tongue when it was necessary. Sometimes the fact that they can say it out loud to us and we don't fight them on it is enough to slow the process down. Many will threaten and talk about it but drag their feet when it comes to doing anything about it. I pray that your h does the same. The longer that they take to file the better, imho. As we all know, time is on our side.

Take care of yourself and try to find a way to relax so that you can get some rest. We're all here for you whenever you need us. You have an open invitation to join Portia and I in the Night Hawk Club when you can't sleep.

[RosaLinda]

Thank you all for your support regarding this latest R talk. I know that the conversation I reported sounds somewhat disrespectful to me, but H did not speak that way at all. He was quiet and tearful and really seemed to be pondering what to do. Upsetting, but I was happy that he shared his feelings with me at all; he has not for over 6 months. 

Cadet "So you think you can remain friends after going through a divorce?
I think you need a little more mystery so he knows that you are moving forward with your life." 

Some divorces are amicable Cadet, but it would have been more honest to tell H no, I would not want to be your friend after you ripped my heart out of my chest and left it bleeding in the street with RT dancing all over it with her pointy toed shoes. 

I'm not really a mysterious sort of gal, but I think you mean that I should let H see that I am moving on. I did mention to him that I think it's time to start moving on with my life. H gave me a facitious answer, asking if I wanted for him to set me up on an online dating website. I told him married women don't go on dating websites. 

Yesterday was my birthday, and I was feeling pretty low. So in the morning I went to the beach to watch the sunrise and pray a bit. When I got home, H interrogated me on where I had been and did not seem to believe me that I'd been to the beach, alone. Next time I'll just say "none of your business" Maybe that would add mystery?

Forever "I think you did a great job. I also think you are right to feel hopeful here... it sounds like he is starting to figure things out." 

Portia "But the strange thing is that perhaps when they start to talk this way - being somewhat self-aware of their actions - that may mean he is peeking out a bit. I worry more when they are keeping things inside. Well, or screaming at us.
This conversation sounds like it has been stewing since he returned from Russia."

Thank you so much FY and Portia! I am hoping that the whole converstation, but especially H's question as to whether or not I had "noticed that he has not loved me and has been looking for romance for the past 4 or 5 years," was somewhat indicative that he is starting to realize that something is wrong, or at least changed, about himself. Whether it will cause him to continue on his journey or to become more frightened and duck deeper into the rabbit hole to hide remains to be seen. 

Rose  "I think this is your opportunity to show him how well you can be as you move forward and in the process detach and find some peace for yourself."

Bright  "I agree with FY, that there is something to hope for after this conversation. So, RT is on his case and pressuring him hard. You need to distance yourself and act like you are moving on with your life and looking forward to your future. And let’s see what your H is going to decide for himself. We always want what we cannot get, right. He can get RT any time, but you need to make him feel that he can lose you… and the house that he likes so much… etc. Patience, my hear Rosa… Let RT do the work for you."

Thank you Rose and Bright, you're always borh so positive. I hope RT is doing the work. I think she is - all that pushing and demanding and screeching. H really does not usually like that sort of stuff, but has convinced himself that it means she truly loves him. His heart might want to believe that, but his head must realize the truth. 

I'm really finally able to let H go and am getting better at distancing myself. I do fall into that trap of analyzing all of his words and actions to try to figure out what he means. I keep forgetting that it's impossible to figure put what a remporarily insane MLCer means at any time, and also, that they change their minds and do a mental 180 multiple  times a day, often within the same conversation. 

It's better to stay far away from all that speculation. It only causes unevessary heart ache and expectations!

NLT  "My h said pretty much the same thing about his ow. The only difference is that he realizes that she is after him for the money, she pretty much told him that on Blow-out #6. All of the negative qualities that RT has are surely going to be magnified as time passes. Don't you wish you could ask them why they'd put up with such nonsense? Unfortunately, they have to learn that on their own. If they didn't have such low self esteem they would realize that those "qualities" are not what makes a marriage last! LOL! Your h is as nutty as the rest."

I don't understand why your H would stay with OW after she told him that she only wants him for his money NLT. It is equally obvious to me that RT is after H for what she can get from him - a green card and the money he would get from the sale of our home and his IRA. I cannot understand why my H believes that RT is "in love" with him. 

I think that the infatuated  limerance part of a new relationship puts rose colored glasses on even normal people. They love all of their lover's faults. He is SO cute when he gets so angry and screams at me, I love his passion. It's so sweet that he won't let me hang out with my friends, his jealousy shows how much he loves me. 

Unfortunately, MLCers seem to have extra thick, extra dark rose colored glasses. Because the OP they choose don't seem to have very many redeeming qualities in comparison to their laundry list of faults. As I mentioned, H could not tell me the qualities he loves about RT, but after listing the things that he does not like about her (argumentative, aggressive, dishonest, loud, etc) claimed that they are "symbiotic" and her strengths balance his weaknesses. BS. 

The biggest character flaw to me is she is willing to sleep with a married man and break up his 38 year marriage. His answer to that - well she's Russian! And that makes her good marriage material? I hope and pray all of our Hs and Ws escape from this replay stage of MLC and soon. Before it's too late for them and they have blown their chance to reconcile their marriages. 

NLT  "You did very well with your responses and held your tongue when it was necessary. Sometimes the fact that they can say it out loud to us and we don't fight them on it is enough to slow the process down. Many will threaten and talk about it but drag their feet when it comes to doing anything about it. I pray that your h does the same. The longer that they take to file the better, imho. As we all know, time is on our side. 

You have an open invitation to join Portia and I in the Night Hawk Club when you can't sleep."

Thanks for the invitation. I wish I'd read it when I lay awake in bed at 3 am this morning. And yesterday morning. And the day before that. 

I plan to take the advice of the vets and force H to do all the work to file for D. I saw a lawyer and know my rights and responsibilities. I am also aware of the financial requirements for obtaining a green card for an alien spouse, and know H cannot possibly fulfill them, even with RT's latest scheme for him to sell our home and start drawing on his IRA, as the INS would not consider it a steady income, since the principle might disappear with one downturn of the stock market. 

RT is a mover and a shaker. H told me the only way he was able to visit Russia was that she helped him and made all the arrangements. Now she's pushing for D. Maybe she'll find him a divorece lawyer online and make an appointment for him. Who knows? His loss if he goes along with it. 

So...their entire relationship is built on lies. A house built on sand. On the shore. With a hurricane coming. 

I feel if I can gather the emotional hardiness to wait it out, H will eventually wake up. In the meanwhile, I will continue to detach and live my life. Not to make him THINK I may be moving on, but as uRw advises, to really move on. And find happiness for myself apart from him. I am not ready to give him an ultimatum yet, but did tell him that if he goes away again with RT, will not be allowed to return to our home. 

I summarized the MLC chapter of Divorce Remedy into a condensed [u]Readers' Digest[/i] version for MakingMagic, and will paste it here as a reminder to myself and any one else who might be interested. 

MDW wrote "You are not going to be able to control or exert influence on your partner to speed up the process. You are going to see and hear things you think are unfair and unjust...You are going to have to just let things happen, go with the flow....The best thing you can do when your spouse shares negative feelings...is to be a good listener, acknowledge what he is saying. Tell him that you feel bad that he is so upset about things....Let him know you are hearing and taking to heart the things he is unhappy about....pushing an issue will only push him away. It is very important to give your husband space. He needs time to think, feel and experiment, even if part of the experimentation involves another woman....There may not be much that you can do right now to make things better, but there are a ton of things you can do to make things worse, like interrogation and issuing demands.....The one thing you have to keep in mind throughout this journey is that your husband will have to find his own answers....Letting go is amazingly difficult, but unless you do, your marriage probably won't work out. You have to learn to detach from your husband's confusion and let him struggle through it until he sees a clearing."

Good stuff!

So, another Libra - I turned 61 yesterday. Gotta change my signature. H took me out for a steak dinner, which he paid for with his own money he earned in his twice monthly factory floor washing job. I found that extremely touching! Then he took me out for pumpkin spice lattes and pumpkin bread. It was a lovely relaxed evening, good for the PMA. 

Keep on busting everyone!

[job]

Rosa,
Happy belated birthday!

Continue to listen and observe his body language. He's a very confused and unhappy man. He does need to find the answers for himself and the only way to do that is to let him go, physically, emotionally and mentally.

As for the ow, well, she's nothing but a band aid for his pain right now. She's showing some of her true colors and it won't be long before all will be exposed.

Hang in there.

[Ab Fab]

Rosa, belated Happy birthday.

At least your husband acknowledged your birthday - that's a plus from my point of view.

I think that if you can keep your head in the right place eventually you will be one of the success stories. Lets hope so.

Continue to take good care of yourself.

[Cadet]

 I'm not really a mysterious sort of gal

 
Yea I understand, it takes a lot to change that kind of behavior and to try to make it stick.
Dont worry about "moving on" but yes move forward!

Yesterday was my birthday, and I was feeling pretty low. So in the morning I went to the beach to watch the sunrise and pray a bit. When I got home, H interrogated me on where I had been and did not seem to believe me that I'd been to the beach, alone. Next time I'll just say "none of your business" Maybe that would add mystery?

Or tell him him you had a date.
He doesnt have to know that the date was with your best friend - YOU!

Happy Birthday again, his actions last night don't match up with someone that wants to be divorced,
CONFUSION = MLC

Yup good advice to yourself about letting him do all the work.
My prediction is he wont.
He doesnt have enough energy to do it.

[BrightFuture]

Rosa, Happy belated Birthday! I know two more people who had birthdays yesterday.

In your previous post you mentioned that H said that when he flirts with his language exchange Russian women, they take him seriously. And now, he said that RT’s willingness to break up a 38 year marriage is explained by the fact that she is Russian. I don’t know about this language exchange club, but to me it looks like some way for Russian women to connect with American (and other) men. There are millions of Russian women who do not get involved with married men. I also think that your H was actually looking for these types of women who would give him special attention and admiration, he was seeking validation and went to the right place to get it. I know that there is a stereotype of Russian women developed over the past years, but I just had to put my 2 cents here. I understand your frustration too. I myself sometimes have a hard time to not stereotype all Mexican women because my H tried to have an affair with one. I just always remind myself that I have Mexican friends and they are all people with good morals.

Your H definitely has very thick rose colored glasses on his head. I just hope that they fade over time, the sooner, the better, and he will see RT in clear day light.

[RosaLinda]

oh Bright, I am sorry if I offended you. I know there are millions of lovely, upstanding Russian women, who would never dream of having an affair with a married man. I even know a couple - my H has had lots of legitimate language partners on the exchange, and some of them have become my good friends, and two even came to New York to visit us.

I think my H has been trolling the language exchange club for likely women who would be up for an online flirtation to boost his ego. When he finds a woman who is in her 50s, divorced or widowed, he sends her his canned speech about being lonely and how wonderful SHE is, and if she bites, well, he's up and running with the rest of it -- how his wife is a b!tch who has been lying and cheating on him for the past 38 years, whom he nobly does not leave for the sake of the children (almost 30 and 40 but hey...), and how wonderful SHE makes him feel. I know this for a fact because I used to be heavily into snooping and used to read his email all the time, and even printed out a lot of them as evidence for my divorce. Just in case. But New York changed to a no-fault state so I don't need evidence. H drops the ones who do flirt with him pretty fast, often within weeks, but the ones who do not fall for his line just remain his friends.

I told him that I think this is despicable and that he is hurting these poor women. In the past he told me it is just a harmless flirtation, and no one gets hurt, and it does not mean anything. I was astonished to hear him say that he is surprised that so many of them take his flirtation seriously, because I warned him.

I also hope H's rose colored glasses fade, and soon! Do you have bright spot light I could shine on RT to make him see her more clearly?

[uRworthy]

Hey Rosa, Cadet is right, (dont faint now, Cadet - LOL)!.

I mean for you to move forward, not move on, unless you are ready to do that. And moving forward to me means living your life without regard to what he is saying or doing. It means finding joy in your days, trying new things, going new places.

But I dont agree with Cadet (sorry) that you should have told him you had a date. Only because I dont think lying and playing games is the right thing. But, you could have smiled and not answered and kept walking, right? Or just said, I had plans. You certainly dont owe him an explanation.

When you get the mindset that you are putting your marriage safely in a box right now, and you live your life and I mean really live it, without regard to what he is saying or doing, you will be truly detached. And that, to me, is you moving forward, which is what I would like for you, my friend.

I do not think you should give him ultimatums or issue demands either. But I think boundaries are healthy and you told me you have some in place, which I am very happy about.

Rosa, leave him to this. He has to figure it out this out on his own. You cant push or pull him through it. Trust in the process and in Him.

[BrightFuture]

Oh Rosa, you didn’t offend me in any way. I might have written it for my own sake, since I’m guilty of stereotyping.

uR just wrote another brilliant post for you. I completely agree. Now it is a very delicate time when you need to give your H even more space. Let him figure it out for himself. You sound much better these days.