on the edge...

[jp787]

Dingo -

What I am trying to say is you have expressed your stance on the OM. Right now she needs to walk her own journey, figure out what she wants and needs. The only way she can do that is with time and space.

Do your 180's by all means, but do them for you, not her.

Do what you need to make yourself happy and healthy. If you do an activity and she wants to come, ask yourself what do you want? Will it help or hurt you to have her join? Do you want her there with you with the situation you are in right now?

Do not move out, that will be something that she needs to do if it comes to that.

IMO you are not at the point to where you hold her accountable. That comes later when you both are at the same place and working on the marriage, I don't see that right now.

Live your life and be the man you want to be. Be kind, caring and giving to your W. Listen to her and let your actions speak for you.

You can not make anything happen other than to yourself, changing yourself may change your situation, but do it for you.

this is not easy.

[jp787]

Remember take what works for you from here. Some things you have to decide are right for you and other things are not.

Snadi2 give amazing advice and I have nothing but respect for her words. I take a lot away from reading her post along with many others.

Everyone is a little different and you will need to find what works for you. Sometimes you have to try something new and see what happens.

[Mach1]

Dingo...

Question for you...

You are both 38 ?

Together for 7 years , married 2 ?

You said that your previous relationship affected things in the beginning..of the relationship ? Or the Marriage ???

And what is her story prior to your relationship ???


Also, please don't think that the outcome of this, hinges on the outcome of one conversation, whether it is good or bad. This didn't break overnight, and it won't be fixed overnight.

Thats a great point and something that I am realizing to be the case. Unfortunately, I was raised with some tough love, was a military officer, etc so I don't have a lot of patience for lack of character, integrity or determination.

That's a pretty tall soapbox there.

Is it conducive to a reconciliation ????

[Spartan]

JP hit a lot of things I was going to say.

My question is what do YOU want?

How do you want to live your life?

Are you doing the things you want to do to be the person you want to be?


Tough love has it's place but has to be used carefully when trying to reconcile. Needs to come from a place of love and self respect. It also needs to come with patience because you have to give your partner time and space to (hopefully) grow and learn by trial and error.

The book BD recommended is all about gaining your self confidence back. I lost mine after BD in a bad way. I really struggled with boundaries and following through on things I stated if boundaries were crossed. Have you guys clearly discussed boundaries and consequences if they were crossed? Not saying you even need to yet, just curious.

[dingo]

We are both 38. Married for 2, together for 7.

When I first met my wife I was still in contact with an ex that I was with for 4 years. We had broken up about a year and a half earlier and though we lived thousands of miles apart (she in Alaska and me in New York) we still spoke 2-3 times per month. Maybe a year before we were married, my ex came out to New York City and we (my future wife and I) drove down to meet her for an evening. Nothing happened that was beyond the boundaries of friendship however, I suspected that that trip was an eye-opener for me. I realized that my ex was still lightly pursuing me and that pursuit/light contact kept me from giving up my feelings for her and truly committing 100% to my wife. After that trip, I cut off all contact with my ex. No phone calls, removed her from facebook, etc. Within days my attitude towards my wife improved (though i never realized it wasn't what it should have been until that moment).

Prior to our relationship, my wife was in another long (4+ years?) relationship. They lived together and though I am not sure if there was talk of getting married, i think she expected that they would. He ended up cheating on her and she tried to forgive him for a while but they ultimately broke up. She met me a year and half or so after the breakup.

We have discussed some boundaries but like you, I have had a hard time enforcing them.

I did buy the book you guys recommended and am a bit confused by the advice. Dobson recommends an ultimatum - choose marriage or affair. Most of the advice ive seen here says no pressure.

[Spartan]

I think it has to be the M or the A. If she can't choose between the two then what are you doing besides being hurt and wasting your time (right now). I added (right now) because things could change in the future.

That's one of those boundaries and associated consequences we were talking about. If/ when you do say it's one or the other you have to be 100% prepared for either choice she makes. So, before you do it you have to be ready to make that choice.

[AnotherStander]

I did buy the book you guys recommended and am a bit confused by the advice. Dobson recommends an ultimatum - choose marriage or affair. Most of the advice ive seen here says no pressure.

Which book, Love Must Be Tough? It's not completely consistent with DB'ing. The DB'ing approach is not to pressure the WAS even if they're involved in an affair. That doesn't mean to be a doormat, it just means don't pressure them with constant R talks and such. MWD talks about an ultimatum in DR, she calls it the "after the last resort" technique. She says if your spouse has refused to let go of their affair partner after you've done everything else and if you're just done with it all, then lay the ultimatum on them. But she warns not to do it unless you're fully willing to accept D, because that's where it may lead. I think that's the difference, in DB'ing the ultimatum is the last resort while in Dobson's book he presents it as a tool to "wake up" the spouse. I think MWD has it right though, if you push an ultimatum too soon it'll often force the sitch into D.

[Breakdown]

I think a lot of the books you read give a little different advice. Some work better than others in certain situations, and sometimes they work better at certain times in the relationship. The difficult thing is figuring out what to do when.

Ultimately, it does come down to the M or the A. But how that plays out isn't necessarily thru an ultimatum. If you start working on you, stay busy, GAL, meet new friends, become a lot less available, and decide to not do certain things with your W because of her involvement of an affair, that is a lot like the ultimatum without actually saying it.

I recommend Dobson because of the self respect aspect. You have to decide what you're willing to live with. Sometimes I think of it in terms of my kids....what would you want your son or daughter to do in your sitch? Think about that hard because they are watching you.

Your W seems to be in the middle....at least right now. She's not committed to killing the A and protecting your M, but she's not quite ready to let you go either. My W was exactly the same and it went on a long long time because I was afraid if I stood firm on how I felt, she would leave. Eventually, my self-respect won out and I asked for the D and even pushed for it. Only then did my W start seeing things differently. Only then do I think she respected me for standing for our M and what it's supposed to mean.

[sandi2]

I like all of Dobson's material, but you have to understand something here and now. Every book and/or M program will differ to some degree. DBing is not known as some tough love program, so naturally, it is going to have very different advice from a book entitled Tough Love! Why does that confuse you to find out there are different opinions when there are more than one book/program?

You can do some reviewing and research to see what you believe you need to do. But even members here on the board may not always agree one hundred percent of the time.

I didn't think about you showing your W what I had posted to you. So, does she know about the DB board now? If not, don't reveal it to her, IIMHO, it is a place of support and help for the individual. If she does not agree to work with you to protect the M, then you don't need her seeing what you post here. Some have compared it to exposing your game plan.

Even if she agrees to working in the M, she may not put a hundred percent effort into it. But it doesn't mean she isn't trying to do the right thing. The WAW has her own separate work that needs to be done within herself. Just as you will need to be doing some of your own work. There is individual work and couple work.

Btw, I'm not telling you to not help your W around the house, okay? But I have never known of a woman having an A due to H not cleaning the kitchen. If her emotional needs are met by you.......she will be able to overlook some dirty dishes. Unmet needs however, magnify everything that would otherwise be a minor irratation. I find it rather sad that one of the first things most LBH'S decide to use as a 180......is to help around the house more. That is very....Very telling, IMO.

Perhaps you could do a goggle search for her need/his needs? I can tell you something about that OM. The A happened b/c of how he made her feel. There was some emotional need that was not being met, until he came on the scene.

[dingo]

Thanks for the reply Sandi - I find your posts very helpful and insightful.

I did not actually show her the post. I copied what you wrote into a word file, printed it out and gave it to her. I told her that it came from someone who was in a similar situation to hers. I thought she might appreciate something from someone who had shared her perspective. To my knowledge, she does not know of this site and I don't plan on telling her about it.

I understand that there are different strategies that are recommended by different people. I think the key is knowing when to use which as the situation demands. I also understand that each situation is completely unique and there is no one answer that is going to resolve every situation.

I also understand the emotional need thing. I asked her to give me a list of the ways she felt I failed the marriage and at the same time I produced my own list of how I felt I failed the marriage. There were many items that we both listed. Many of these I had never suspected were failings but I had learned that they were through some of the reading I had done during this crisis. Of course others were things that she complained about before but I didnt listen or take her seriously enough.

When I condense the issues the major topic is that I was too focused on the practical side of our lives. We talked about having a child but I always wanted 6 more months of savings before I felt we were financially ready, she wanted to go on a nice vacation or to put new floors in the house and I would say something stupid like 'we can do that but its going to set us back on the child issue.' I became pretty rigid and I think she felt like she had no say.

Also during this time, I became overly focused on work. I wanted the raise, I wanted the promotion so I could make more money to give her the floors, vacations, etc. I would come home from work exhausted and not give her the time she deserved.

My understanding of the OM is that he listens to her and makes her feel like her opinion matters. As opposed to me, he does not have a particularly strong personality so I know that she pretty much gets her way with him. Its probably the same old 'he treats me like you did when we were dating' scenario.