chicken or egg?

[TSquared2]

I would really work on seeing W as a friend, a sibling, a co-worker, and then treating her so. How would you treat your sister?

You hit your nail on the head here:

I keep figuring in my head that I need to get used to not talking to W, so I don't want to invest a lot of effort at this point unless she wants to R. Perhaps this shows that my antics are not coming from a place of love, but a place of wanting to "win" and game playing. I need to work with IC on this.

25yrs is right...and that was the tough part of this journey for me...learning about, wrestling with my hurt, battered ego. Getting it under control and quiet again. You can do it, it is the most freeing thing!

[etc]

learning about, wrestling with my hurt, battered ego. Getting it under control and quiet again. You can do it, it is the most freeing thing!

Oh man T, this is so true. Every time my ego comes out of hibernation, I want to scream. What good is that going to do me? Why am I so bothered by the OM? I really think it's b/c in my head on a sub/un-conscious level I used to think I owned my W, took her for granted, etc and this is proving that I can't own anyone. I was brainwashed to think I could. What an idiot I was to think that! Never again!

Deep down I'm really sad about how I thought I knew so much about life and this whole experience totally knocked me on my a$$ b/c I really don't know anything. It's really all a learning experience.

Again, my biggest concern though is how this is all going to affect my kids. They're watching and it's changing them. I can see it.

ETC

[etc]

Ugh. I was doing great, being dim for the past several days, getting along in life, kids seem happy staying with me but miss their mom of course and then I was again baited into another long discussion with W about our issues.

W complained that she needs me to give her more emotional support in dealing with the kids, which is understandable. How do I effectively do this while we're no longer M? She's upset that they don't like going to her place.

W went to the IC who has been good at validating all her decisions. I guess they think the reason one D is having such trouble is not really because of the S, but because D has an untreated mental issue that comes from my family. W claims that I have the same issue and this has been the cause of all her misery. I told her that she shouldn't go around diagnosing people and I'm seeing an IC to deal with my own problems, so she shouldn't feel responsible for my emotional health. I was again tempted into reasoning with W b/c she doesn't think the S is a root cause of D's mental anguish but that this was all bound to happen regardless. When I try to just listen, W asks why I'm so quiet (a 180 for me) and I say I'm just listening. Is she expecting to get more of a rise out of me? I'm pretty calm during these discussions, but I'm certainly not afraid to challenge her when I disagree. Sometimes I say too much - I need to work on this.

Older Ds continue to be angry that they can't see both of their parents every day. Is there a solution for this? W doesn't seem to want to work out a schedule that would allow for this. They think W has been feigning her love for them since this whole ordeal began. I'm caught in the middle, but I encourage them to love their mom no matter what.

When I go to sleep at night I just wish that everyone in our family could learn to love each other again. I feel that all this psychobabble has gotten us all into a tangled mess. I even told W last night that kids just need love right now. She insists they need to get into counseling ASAP so their not afraid to stay with her. I told her I'd look into it, but kids said they don't want to go.

MLC is a real bugger.

ETC

[chasingpavements]

Hi etc, sorry to hear you are feeling down. Stay strong, keep your head up and keep on DB'ing.

I was again baited into another long discussion with W about our issues.

.
I think you are getting too involved with her, and she is causing you all sorts of worry. I know it is hard, but try to detach, as you are feeling every rocky bump of her journey.

W complained that she needs me to give her more emotional support in dealing with the kids, which is understandable. How do I effectively do this while we're no longer M? She's upset that they don't like going to her place.

I can see how your W is upset. Understandably, because the children are not wanting to go over to visit her at the moment. That would be hurtful. Separation can be so hard on children, and confusing to them. If it was me in your shoes, I would make a counseling appointment with your children to attend, so that you could sit down with you counselor and the children and work through some of this issues as a family. The counselor could help in many ways, and it would help the children to better understand the situation and how to cope with everything.

W went to the IC who has been good at validating all her decisions. I guess they think the reason one D is having such trouble is not really because of the S, but because D has an untreated mental issue that comes from my family. W claims that I have the same issue and this has been the cause of all her misery. I told her that she shouldn't go around diagnosing people and I'm seeing an IC to deal with my own problems, so she shouldn't feel responsible for my emotional health.

If she has a health concern about your D, I would not write it
off. It is possible that she is having medical issues that need to be looked at. Of course, though, you cannot write off the fact that the separation has anything to do with it. Children notice these kinds of things. Family counseling would also help with that.

MLC is a real bugger.

I agree!

Take care, etc.

[etc]

CP, you're so helpful. Thank you. I agree with everything you've said. I've proceeded with seeking professional help for D so we can better determine whether or not there is a real issue.

I'm feeling really lost now. D ran away from W's place again and everyone including W came to my place to talk. It got heated and W basically accused me of manipulating the kids into hating her. I swear I'm only trying to be the best father possible and this is my #1 priority (which is a 180). I could be wrong, but W seems resentful of the new me. I sincerely want the kids to have a great relationship with their mom. Is there anything I can do about the older kids being mad at her for leaving the home? W told them that we're proceeding with D and we will never all live together again. This got all the kids pretty emotional.

Surprisingly, I'm not that emotionally affected by this anymore. I just want peace. I certainly don't want to be using my kids as pawns in all this and I really hope I'm not doing this unconsciously. What can I do to ensure I'm not being manipulative? W said I'm blind to it. Maybe she's right??

ETC

[ForeverYoung]

I don't think you are being manipulative, or using your kids as pawns. You've said over and over that your only wish is for them to get along. Unfortunately, W's perception of things right now is much different, and you're not likely to change that any time soon.

W feels guilty for breaking up the kids home and is trying to lay it on you. Don't accept it. Continue to be the Dad your kids need right now.

I hope others with kids chime in with some helpful information for you.

I'm so sorry to hear of the mess you are in, but admire the strength you are showing. Keep it up my friend, you can do this. You have to.

[etc]

FY, as always, you are so helpful in your comments and insights. It's amazing that even with everything I've written thus far, W and I still manage to interact almost on a daily basis. She initiates most of the contact. She goes between totally resenting me to being really nice to me. I try to go dark, but she still needs me to help with kids and they come first. It's funny b/c as bad as everything seems, this could be so much work. I've been doing a lot of reflection on how detached love is supposed to look in action. Does anyone have any insight into this? Since this whole ordeal has gone on I haven't gone more than 3 days without contact w/W. As much as I try, I don't think it's possible!

ETC

[etc]

I think T^2 may have answered my question in an earlier post. If I can just treat my W like I would a sister or neighbor, maybe that's the way to "detached love"? Hmm...

ETC

[TSquared2]

Hi ya ETC, hope your Friday is going well!

Yes, I think if you can "re-frame" W as a sister, or how about best friend who is having issues, and really try to "act as if" she is just exactly that. If your best friend was going on a long trip, and you couldn't go, how would you act towards him/her? Or your sister?

That's basically what I did, "re-framed" the R in the theater of the mind to the above. It helped me a lot, wasn't perfect, lol, but it did help. I complimented her appearance "as if" my sister, or a friend I had no romantic interest in, for example.

Because of the kids, you really can't go completely dark, the vets call what you need to do, "dim"...rH coined the "aloof, but available" meme which I use, since W has been an in-house mlc'er. It's a dance, constantly adjusting the "dimmer switch" by following her lead. Brighter when appropriate, like when you are seeing "good things", or her mood is bright...and dim down when she is off in mlc mind warp, or you need some space from her. Dim is for YOU primarily, but I think it shows the mlc'er that you are "hearing" them and giving them the space that they asked for, and that YOU are okay without them...but it gives you the flexibility to "shine" brightly when appropriate and show off your new self.

As far as being manipulative with the kids R with W, really look at yourself, your thoughts, what you say regarding the sitch. Be ruthlessly honest with yourself, because your kids deserve that from you. If you can't see when/where you are, or might be, then work with an IC to get an outside perspective...this event is a huge life lesson and "modelling/molding" opportunity for your kids...make the best of it...what do you want them to take away from this? These are things I have asked myself repeatedly the past 2 years, and to a lesser extent, 4 years...

I want to double up on what CP said, get at least you and your kids in some family counseling, invite W to be part of it too, but this is where you lead, regardless whether W joins C or not, you do it for you and the kids. This may also help get that outside perspective...and to help check your premises...

Hang in there!!

[etc]

T2, that's great! Thanks!

Another Q. I unfortunately still often have the "how can she do this to me and my family?" question cycling through my brain. The best I can do to counter it is "she's on her journey and I'm on mine." Do you have any any other ways to counter that thought? We're getting started on the D process (mediated) and I really want to show her that I'm rooting for her independence and learning more about herself as an individual no matter what happens. I of course wish she could do that while being in a loving relationship with me, but I know that's not possible right now.

Thanks again.
ETC