Confused about detaching!!!

[Accuray]

I understand how you feel. Unfortunately from my seat in the bleachers it looks like he's manipulating you. I really don't believe the way he's treating you is okay, and his explanations ring hollow to me. Sometimes when you're too close to a situation, you believe what you want to believe.

why the second phone and why is it locked? He says it’s just to spite me because he’s tired of how nosey I am....When we talk about that kind of stuff he tells me I’m just being the “old” me and that nothing ever changes. Sometimes, we can calmly discuss this stuff, but most times, he just gets really defensive and angry.

That's a giant sack-load of BS. I think a DB coach or an IC can help you to interpret these comments (is it him or is it me) and help you to formulate constructive responses. There is no reason to have a second private and locked cell phone when you are married. That is NOT marriage-friendly behavior at all and is not acceptable. He's using his anger to bully you and hanging a threat of leaving over your head so he can do as he likes -- that's manipulation.

Here's the thing -- saving your marriage and DB is very much a waiting game. When your spouse is checked out, you don't really have any grounds to ask for anything. Your goal is really not to push them farther away. In many ways, when YOU are the one trying to save your marriage, you have to be totally selfless, focus on yourself, and have no expectations.

However, that can't go on indefinitely. At some point, balance needs to be restored to the relationship, and you need to start getting your own needs met as well. If you're coming up on the 1 year mark, it's probably a good time to meet with a DB coach or an IC and take stock of where you are and what your goals are.

Many people find it useful to create a timeline for yourself (but don't share it with H under any circumstance). i.e. "I will continue to DB and accept not having my needs met for another X months. At that point, if things have not improved, I will Y."

You have to make your own plan and figure out what YOU want, but do it from a place of confidence, not fear. Know that you are worthy and deserve to be treated as a loved spouse. It is your obligation to do any needed work on yourself, to understand how to meet his needs, listen to his complaints, and react to them professionally assuming they're not crazy. Once you've done that work, you either need to get to piecing where H will commit to meeting your needs, or you need to force a crisis where he either decides to commit or leave.

but how do I set boundaries without just completely ticking him off? Does it matter if he gets ticked off?

In situations like this you usually have to make things worse before they will get better.

I spent a weekend with some friends recently and observed how boundaries apply to parenting. My friend's kids did a lot of whining, and would whine until they got what they wanted. The whining would really annoy their parents, and they would threaten consequences, but never follow through and ultimately would give in to negotiation with the kids so that they at least partially got what they were whining about.

Looking at that situation from the outside, the kids were distressed when they were whining -- I'm sure they didn't want to feel that way. The parents were distressed when the kids were whining, I'm sure they didn't want to feel that way either. To stop the whining would mean making things worse -- enforcing consequences and probably enduring a tantrum or two.

My W and I do not respond to whining at all -- as soon as one of our kids whine, it's game over, no more discussion about whatever it was and there's no way they will get anything through whining. Consequently our kids don't whine, they've learned it's useless to do so. Therefore, if they're disappointed, they might complain, but if they get a negative response they let it go. I believe this makes both their lives and our lives much less stressful. They understand the boundary, they understand the consequence, and that trying to swim against the current is useless.

You can get your H into this mode -- you have trained him that threatening you and getting angry results in him getting his way and you backing off. This puts both of you into an uncomfortable situation where when you aren't happy, you'll push him, he'll get angry or threaten, and you will back off and give in.

What if he learned that anger and threats had no effect on you, that if he went there, the discussion was over (for now), but that you were not going to back down?

I predict you'd have fewer angry confrontations, and more productive discussions.

People truly like rules and order, but they hate change. Therefore, when you set and enforce boundaries, things almost always get worse before they get better, because of the friction the change itself causes.

That will often lead you to conclude your change was bad and revert, when if you had just given it more time and allowed it to become the new norm, you'd be in a better place.

Acc

[Feenix]

Accuray

Thank you for your viewpoint and good advice. I appreciate you taking the time to offer some suggestions, etc.

"You have to make your own plan and figure out what YOU want, but do it from a place of confidence, not fear."

This is such good advice. Every step I've been making I've been wondering "is this going to cause him to leave?" and I'm constantly on eggshells, in fear. And, it was helpful to hear your perspective on boundaries. I have boundaries with my kids...and they're well-behaved, but I've been so afraid that H would leave, that I just don't insist on any boundaries with him where it concerns the phone, etc. in our marriage.

And, I definitely want to talk to a DB Coach!!! I get paid next week so maybe I can make it happen then. I know it would help me a lot!

UPDATE: 9/13/2103

I haven’t posted in a few days because right after I posted on here, my marriage went bad in a hurry and I’ve been busy trying to be there for my kids and trying to keep my own head above water.

In the past week, my husband has only slept at our house one day. He works nights, but used to come home to sleep every morning after shift. He’d sleep all day, then get up after school to spend time with me and the kids, then go to work.
Starting last Saturday, he’s started sleeping at a “buddy’s” after work. One of his other work friends has been at this buddy’s house during some of that time, so it may be true that my H is just staying with a guy friend.

It doesn’t really matter, at this point. The fact is my husband isn’t coming home anymore to sleep, change clothes, or spend time with me or our four kids. He was doing that the last time I posted but he had excuses for why he was too tired to come home, etc. After this many days, it’s obvious he just doesn’t want to come home but is too chicken to actually pack his stuff and leave.

On Wednesday, two days ago, he got into a HUGE fight with him mom, who he’s always been close to, and it ended up with him telling her the following:

To lose his number and never call or text him again.
That he hopes she dies and that he will never come visit her ever again.
That our kids aren’t allowed to go visit her.
He called her a “mother f****** b****” and other horrible things.

All of this was because she knew about the EA back in October and she’d noticed the change in him and she initiated a talk with him about it. He completely lost it. He was texting me at school all day with horrible, hateful MONSTER messages, trying to get me involved….I finally just texted, “I’m sorry you feel that way,” and left it at that. (To which he replied, “Huh?!”…LMBO).

But, here’s the kicker, he showed up at our sons’ football games last night and tried to act like everything was normal. I was polite but not friendly. Then, the trip to a Major League Baseball game that we’re supposed to take tomorrow? Well, he still wants us all to go. Even after he’s pretty much not living at home and was spewing hate all day Wednesday.

I haven’t initiated any contact. I’ve let him contact me about the kids, etc. I’m trying very, very hard to stay positive…to work on me…and to be there for my kids. I blocked him on Facebook and I make myself NEVER go read his page or his friend's pages. I am trying to stay very strong, mentally.

My sister told me on Wednesday that she hurts seeing me so hurt and beat down over the way he treats me. I really think I have been in denial about the level of emotional abuse that my H has treated me with these past few years. The things I’ve allowed him to get away with and the way I just keep forgiving him with no changes on his part…

Anyway, I’m wondering how this all fits in DB’ing. I know it’s been SO good for me to do my 180’s, to GAL, to work on me and stay positive. I can now start to see that I will come out of this a better, healthier person, whether my marriage survives or not. But, I’m confused about whether I should even be thinking about making the marriage work.

For the first time, in almost a year of this mess…and for the first time in about 6 months of knowing about Divorce Busting, I’m starting to wonder if it’s even worth saving this? I’ve made mistakes and I’m working on being a better person but I don’t deserve the meanness, hate, and lies that I’ve been shown over and over by H.

Anyone else have a spouse who was emotionally abusive who actually had their marriage survive and thrive…where the spouse actually, finally became a nicer, better person after the MLC or is there really something wrong with my H that is on a deeper level that may never get better because it’s who HE is not because his MLC is the cause?

And, I know...I'm probably asking questions that there are no answers to. Only time will tell. More patience and strength on my part. I think it scares me now that I'm starting to suddenly feel so numb to all his BS. I feel myself not caring where he is or who he's with...and I am not crying over him anymore, like I was. I think of him and I'm a little sad or angry....but then, it passes and I move on to something else.

This is a new thing for me. Not sure what's going on...

[Feenix]

Update:
We went, as a family, to the MLB game on Saturday and had a great time. Absolutely no fighting, 2 hour drive there and back.

While at the game, I was standing in line for the bathroom, and H texted me. We texted back and forth for awhile and "talked" some stuff out.

Then, on the way home, he grabbed my hand and held it. I was in shock! He hasn't held my hand in months!

We stopped to eat supper and he sat beside me and seemed to want to be close. Then, when we got home, he kissed me and thanked me for a good day!

He was in a very talkative and open mood. He initiated some R talk so I asked him some questions about stuff and he was very open and honest.

He went to work in a good mood. Then, this morning, got home in a good mood. We ended up going to a local restaurant to watch an NFL game...ate nachos and hung out. It was very relaxing and fun.

But, it's like someone switched out my H for someone else! He hasn't been this open, honest, affectionate and sweet in forever!

I'm thankful for the good weekend...just wondering what's gong on. He kept telling me to relax, yesterday, and enjoy the day. He said, "stop questioning my motives and just enjoy our time together." Hhhhmmmmm. Very strange stuff. Lol.

But, it was a nice weekend. Hoping for some of this "niceness" to be permanent!

[AnotherStander]

To lose his number and never call or text him again.
That he hopes she dies and that he will never come visit her ever again.
That our kids aren’t allowed to go visit her.
He called her a “mother f****** b****” and other horrible things.

Wow. This is why we always encourage LBS's to tell their friends and family to NOT discuss the sitch with the WAS. It never goes well, and often the WAS will blame the LBS for gathering the troops against them (even if the LBS is clueless about it). And the LBS should not discuss the sitch with family and mutual friends for the same reason. Only discuss your sitch here or with people you know have no connection to your H.

I finally just texted, “I’m sorry you feel that way,” and left it at that. (To which he replied, “Huh?!”…LMBO).

Good for you! It's really easy to get drawn into those fights, validating is a much better path because it diffuses things.

But, here’s the kicker, he showed up at our sons’ football games last night and tried to act like everything was normal.

That's actually quite common. You were on a dip of the roller coaster and now it's climbed the next hill. There are lots more dips and hills ahead, so don't get excited that everything is fine now.

I haven’t initiated any contact. I’ve let him contact me about the kids, etc. I’m trying very, very hard to stay positive…to work on me…and to be there for my kids.

Great! I know it's tough, but stick with it, it gets easier.

Anyway, I’m wondering how this all fits in DB’ing. I know it’s been SO good for me to do my 180’s, to GAL, to work on me and stay positive. I can now start to see that I will come out of this a better, healthier person, whether my marriage survives or not. But, I’m confused about whether I should even be thinking about making the marriage work.

You've summed up DB'ing quite well! You should not be trying to make the M work right now. That falls under the category of "piecing" and piecing doesn't start until the WAS expresses interest in working on things. I think your H is a long way off from that point yet. Keep working on you as you describe above, that's your path for now. Make yourself into the spouse only a fool would leave.

I’ve made mistakes and I’m working on being a better person but I don’t deserve the meanness, hate, and lies that I’ve been shown over and over by H.

You are absolutely right, if/ when you get to piecing these are things to discuss with your H. If he gets to the point of wanting to work on things then you'll need to start dating, and going to MC. You are doing your hard work right now while he's doing nothing. In piecing he'll have a lot of hard work to do including addressing your above concerns. The goal isn't to go back to your old M. It is to establish a new relationship and M.

[Feenix]

AS: Thanks for your comments and insight. Very helpful. I appreciate it!


I did tell H’s mom not to contact him about any of our sitch, and I don’t talk to her or my parents about it…but she’s found out some stuff on her own. She just isn’t “getting” that he doesn’t care what she says or thinks. He just told me yesterday that “our parents have screwed up our lives and they can go to H***.” So he definitely isn’t in a place to hear anything from any of them.

He thinks they “screwed” up our marriage because in the beginning of this mess, over a year ago, they tried to intervene and talk to him about stuff and just made it all worse. They even called the Sheriff one night, around Christmas time, because he was acting so erratic and said he’d “kill me” if I tried to take the kids and go to my parents. H has never threatened me before or since, but that night, he was a total MONSTER. It was a horrible time for our kids, for me, for our parents….and H still harbors a lot of anger from that.

He just brought that all up again last night. While I’ve tried to move on from it, and tried to forgive him for threatening me, etc….he is the one who can’t forget or forgive anything.

What are some other things I can say, besides “I’m sorry you feel that way” to help diffuse situations. I am liking that one, but don’t want to over use it. Lol.
It’s good to be reminded NOT to get too excited about good times. We had a great weekend….really, really good….Then, this week has been HORRIBLE! His moods are all over the place. Last night, I feel like he purposely started a fight right before he left for work. We’d had a good evening, getting along, laughing and joking.

Then, he started being really hateful about 10 minutes before he had to leave. I wish I could say I ignored him, but no, I got sucked in. ARGH! I started crying after he left. I HATE this.

I have got to get better about not reacting to good OR bad stuff coming from him. I need to be more balanced.

A question that may not have answers (I may need a 2X4 here!!!), but how do we KNOW they are ready to work on the M again? He initiated a long talk on Saturday and again, yesterday, about where we’re headed. I tried NOT to talk about it at first, but he kept bringing stuff up and he said that he is not moving out or planning on it now (I know…he could change his mind today….but it’s what he’s been saying since the weekend.)

But, then, he started that fight last night…and he texted me for awhile from work last night about how things can “never be better”…”never be the same”…how are parents have ruined our marriage and it can’t be fixed. He said that I need to let go of my expectations that things will ever be good between us.

In the same conversation, he said he doesn’t want to leave and that we’ll make it work, we’ll just be unhappy forever because I can’t trust him and because he’ll always regret that he can’t be a normal husband.

Also, on Saturday, I asked if he’d be willing to get rid of the second cell phone and he said yes, that he keeps it to spite me. But, yesterday, he brings it up and says he’s not getting rid of it.

I can see why it might be easier if he was not living at home through this!!!! He is totally nice one day and a total grouch the next, regardless of what I’m doing/saying…and he’s so unpredictable.

Is this MLC or WAS (but still at home) behavior??? It seems to matter, here on the boards, which of these our spouse is in…due to the way we need to interact (or not interact) with them.

He is the one bringing up relationship stuff...but about the time it seems he's really read to work on stuff, he starts being hateful and mean again. It's like I'm on shifting sand all the time.

I know, I KNOW! Work on ME, don't worry about him! Lol.

[Accuray]

Angela, it seems like he's all over the place. It comes down to you doing some soul searching and deciding what you want. We can't tell you if you should work to preserve your marriage or not, only you can decide that. If you decide to work to preserve your marriage, we can support you along that journey, and if you decide to move on we can support you along that journey too.

It's easy to get sucked into WAS land and feel like you've harpooned a whale and are getting dragged all over the ocean in your little boat.

Really, though, YOU are half this marriage, so what you want and what you need also need to be taken into account. Either you believe that you can eventually get what you need from the marriage, you don't, or you're not sure, you want to wait and see what develops, but it's absolutely essential to know what YOU want and need.

In terms of your question of "when are you ready to work on your marriage", the answer, from my perspective, is when you are able to *present* what you want and need to H, have that heard, respected, and responded to efficiently, and that H will be able to do the same with you.

If you don't think H is in a position to hear and respond to what you want and need, then you're not ready to work on your M together. If you don't think H understands what he wants and needs himself, then you're not in a position to work on the M.

There's work to be done here, you really have to understand yourself to know what your "must have" list contains, then you have to do some work evaluating if those things are reasonable, or are the consequence of issues you need to work through with an IC. For instance, if you feel H should call you every hour to check in, that's probably not reasonable and you'd want to work through why you have such a high need for contact and/or reassurance. Not saying you have that issue, just a silly example.

When you feel you have your list, and it's more than reasonable, that will help you in this relationship or any other. Then, you create boundaries to ensure that your list is not disrespected or ignored, and you enforce those boundaries ruthlessly.

In my opinion, H needs some therapy to get a handle on his moods and his relationship with both of your parents. He's got stuff going on there that needs to be resolved, it's obviously torturing him. With his erratic behavior, there's also a good chance he's investing intimacy elsewhere and is torn up about that too.

Your best bet is to stay flat and even.

If he's screaming and yelling and jumping up and down, you are calm and rational. If he's laughing and clapping and doing backflips, you are calm and rational. You just need to weather the storm until he sorts himself out IF you want to try to preserve the marriage, it's going to be a waiting game for a while and take more patience than you think you have.

If at some point you decide it's just too painful, or if you doubt he will ever come around enough to be able to satisfy your needs, then it's time to move on, IMO.

Acc

[Feenix]

Thank you, again, Accuray. And, I LOVE the whale analogy...exactly how I feel!!!

I was taking time away from here, this past week, to think about what I really want/need.

Six days later, I can honestly say that I still don't know and that's frustrating.

My H and I had a really great day last Thursday. We hung out, watched TV, played with the kids, laughed, joked, talked. He was more like the "old" H. We had a really good day.

Then, Friday and Saturday, he went right back into full crazy mode, without any change on the way I was handling things. He didn't even come home from work on Saturday morning because he was mad at me. He did come home Sunday morning, after work, and he was better.

Sunday afternoon, we watched a football game and again, hung out and just had fun. We teased, flirted, joked around...and he went to work happy, again. Yesterday was also a good day. He even hugged me, voluntarily, before he left for work.

So, where I'm headed with all this, is that my feelings about my marriage change day to day. When my H is behaving more like the "old" H and is nice to be around, I think we have hope. He even asks me stuff about our R and we can talk calmly about issues. He's always been very private and won't talk about stuff that's bothering him BUT lately, he opens up more on our "good" days' He asks what he can do to help me feel better about us, etc.

On our "bad" days, I feel like it will never get better for real. I feel like we'll just keep cycling forever. I know I don't want to ride this roller coaster forever. My own emotional health suffers when I allow my moods to be affected by his.

I'm working very hard at NOT letting his moods (good or bad) affect mine.

I'm just so confused about what to feel. I want this marriage to work...for us, for my kids....we've invested a lot of time and love into this and have a lot of good stuff there.

But, then the "what ifs?" hit me and I wonder if it will be like this forever with him so up and down. The good days are so worth it...but are the bad days worth it?

So, I'm just updating today because I don't know what I feel. I do know that I've made some improvements this week.

But, I do know I need to work more on that "must have" list Accuray told me to work on...and I need to work out a clear road map (as urworthy mentions often). At least, then, I'll have some definite goals to work toward.

And, yes, my H definitely NEEDS counseling to deal with his family issues...whether he'll ever see that or not, I don't know.

[Accuray]

...so it sounds like ONE thing you want on your list is some emotional stability -- that you will not be with a partner who is kind and nice one minute and mean and crazy the next for no apparent reason. To be in a relationship with Angela, you have to be responsible for your own emotional state, and not just expect Angela to adapt to whatever you choose to throw at her. If you cannot moderate your own emotions, then you are responsible for getting professional help to do so.

Acc

[JayMan]

Angela - just so you know, you're absolutely not alone. In the space of less than a month, my W went back and forth from:
-> We're done, get away from me, filed divorce
<- I love you, I want to be married to you, let's get back in
-> I think divorce is probably best choice
-> You make me sick
<- Hugging, laughing, talking about future together
-> Sign the paperwork so we can get this over with

I probably shouldn't call W a whale - but that analogy is apt. Just wanted you to know you're not alone.

What can you do on the bad days? Do you know what kind of day it'll be typically? Can you take kids to the zoo? Go to the mall and walk around? Be SOMEWHERE else?

[Feenix]

Accuray:

That is worded so well. I need to write that down. Thank you for a concrete example.

There are times, when I'm feeling stronger and more detached, that he'll have a "crazy" day and I'm want to shake my head and say, "Really?" and I'm able to step off the Crazy Train and say, "no, thanks....no ride for me today..."

JonF:

Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone in this super fast cycling of moods in my spouse. That's a good idea on getting out of the house when he's like that. We have several places the kids and I could go to get away for a bit.