BC39.....The fight for my marriage continues

[BC39]

I'm sure your situation feels very perilous and creates anxiety in you, but reacting to that anxiety is your own worst enemy. I truly believe you are best served by taking a long term view and not getting caught up in your W's ups and downs -- just ride it out with an eye on the horizon.

You are right, and I am trying. I feel I am closer to this than I was a few months ago.

I don't believe that most long term spouses would say they are "deeply in love" with their spouse, or that they are "madly attracted" to their spouse. In fact, the average long term married couple probably spends very little time evaluating their feelings for their spouse. They'll react to their needs not being met, but I doubt they pull out the "how in love am I" scale very often if ever. That's not realistic in a long term marriage and there are many reasons for it, and I think you understand that.

You and I both know this to be true...my W on the other hand....

You want W to profess that love and "feel it" to compensate for the fact that she had an EA and placed her affections elsewhere. If she comes back to feeling in love with you and attracted to you, you can relax again and enjoy your marriage without feeling like you're leaning back in a chair.

Yep, I hate that chair

If you make her strong feelings for you a focus, it reinforces her belief that her feelings aren't there and should be. If you take your eye off that ball, *over time* her attention to it will diminish as well. What you focus on expands, and right now the two of you are too focused on her feelings. Given time you *will* both climb out of this valley and achieve a new normal, hopefully much better than the one you had before. The more you focus on this "lack of attraction" issue now, the longer it will delay climbing back out.

I understand. I don't bring up her "feelings". The only time they're brought up is by her.

Adopt the Popeye philosophy: "I am what I am and that's all that I am". If you're the best man you can be, you can't go wrong with that.

I agree. He drove Olive Oil wild, so he must have been doing something right. Perhaps I should also use some of my gym time to focus on forearms

[BC39]

BC,
Life is never cut and dry frown. Sounds like your wife is getting folks input just like you are- just in a different way. To an extent, she's still probably deciding what she thinks will make her happy in the long run. I think she's being genuine when she says she's "trying" (btw, hate that term too. W used to say it all the time during her EA). It wouldn't surprise me if there was still intermittent contact going on between her and the OM which keeps her a bit fogged. If for sure there has been zero contact, then perhaps it is withdrawel coupled with her still not feeling "in love" with you yet.

Falling back in love with you, after being out for a while, is a lengthy process, for sure. Can you identify for me what her greatest emotional needs are? Maybe I can help you come up with some different ways to meet those needs.

In the meantime, keep her happy and distracted from thinking of anyone other than you. Upbeat all the time!

Thanks Hopefull.

I think your right in that she deciding whats going to make her happen in the long run. I'd hazard a guess that that question runs through her mind on a loop.

I don't believe there is any contact with OM.

Everything points to withdrawel and not "in love".

Can you identify for me what her greatest emotional needs are? Maybe I can help you come up with some different ways to meet those needs.

I welcome your help

I'm not sure I can even identify what her greatest emotional needs are. I've asked her to tell me in the past and she has a hard time expanding on them herself, so its a bit of a guessing game.

The one I know I wasn't providing pre BD was words of affirmation. I have since changed that. I tell her how much I appreciate the things she does, I tell her she's beautiful often, how proud I am of her for her new business venture, that she's a great mother, etc

I've been trying to increase the quality time.

I listen intently when she is speaking.

...all the basic stuff

During our last R convo last a month ago she said we had "too much surface convo". I don't necessary agree with this but I am trying to get a little "deeper" than the surface.

I've always done a lot around the house. I'm confident its more than the average husband. Many times its more than my W. I know W would agree.

I'm up for any questions you may have for me to help me dig deeper...

[HopefulStill]

BC,

Big ones for women are usually admiration (sounds like you have been doing that now), physical affection (not sex, just touch- letting her know that you care), and conversation. It sounds to me like conversation is a BIG one for her, and it is what she was getting from the OM since he was so far away. It's also probably why she is complaining about it not being right for her yet (by complaining, I mean she has told you in so many words that she would like this fulfilled differently for her). I would take what she has said at face value and find a way to meet that for her. The best way would be to ask her directly. Perhaps you could say, "I've been thinking a lot about your wanted less "surface" conversation, and wanting deeper conversation. I'd like to do this for you. Could you give me an example of what such a conversation would look like?".

From you writing on here, it sounds like you would be easy to talk to, but some folks are better at writing, not necessarily talking. Also, I'd bet that you are both on your guard a bit, and that makes for awkward conversation (I had a lot of this with my W before we both relaxed and enjoyed each others company). What I would do is listen to her about her day, only jumping in occasionally to validate: "wow, that sounds like it was tough, what did you do?", "I can't believe she said that to,you!, how did it make you feel?". You get the point. What you want is for her to become feeling comfortable that she can share her feelings with you without being judged, or corrected, or given answers to questions she's not asking.

What your wife is desiring is a very intimate bond, that's a great sign! How often do you speak throughout the day? I'd recommend talking on the phone at least twice a day (more if possible), asking how her day is going, sharing a joke or funny thing that happened, listen to her complain and let her know you're there
for her. How often do you spend alone time together just talking, no kids? Double that for a while. Maybe forever. Become her favorite person to talk to.

If you look at the guys that get most of the girls, it's the ones that they enjoy talking to easily. In my past I've had female friends (whom I had no romantic interest in per se) fall in love with me just because they could talk to me. It's a very powerful skill to have, and it can be developed!

[BC39]

Thanks Hopefull, I am doing all those things and will continue to.

I had an interesting little exchange with W yesterday.

One of the little things I've noticed about W this year is she's fairly judgmental of others and has distanced herself to a degree with many around her. Even her BF. A bit emotionally cold compared to the way she used to be. Not all the time, it just comes through every now and then. Theres just something that shines through at times of just not being herself.

She started discussing her BF yesterday, kind of putting blame on her for the ways things have been between them lately. I just listening and validated most of time, but I didn't really agree with what she was saying.

When she was done I said "do you think there's anything YOU could have/could be been doing differently?"

I was interrupted briefly by the kids, and when I turned back to W she was crying.

I held her and asked if she was okay.

She said she was PMS'ing but continued to say "I feel depressed sometimes, like I just don't care, people do little things that bother me and I just want to go to bed and pull the covers over my head".

I asked her if she's felt this way a lot or if she thought it was just the PMS. She said she thought it was the PMS. The PMS probably contributed to her state but I think it goes deeper than that.

W has never used the word "depressed" when speaking about herself.

I'm hoping she starting to look inward for her happiness, but I have my doubts.

.........

Just before posting this I called to ask her about RetroV because she didnt get back to me about it and they were inquiring if we were going to attend (I've already spoke to them).

She asked if we could talk about it tonight. I have a feeling she's going to backtrack and come up with excuses about not having enough time to do all the follow up sessions.

Guess we'll see...

[Accuray]

Tell her if she doesn't want to do the follow up sessions you'll blow those off. The most important thing is to get her there

[lovethehub]

here's something about the word "trying" that bothers me. It just seems disingenuous.

I don't believe it is. I, too, had to 'try' to get back into my M, and it took a long time. This was after years of 'trying' to ignore my loneliness, 'trying' to accept that my M wasn't what I wanted or expected, 'trying' to believe that my H cared about me when everything said he didn't. It took years for me to give up on my M, I couldn't jump right back in just because H realized he loved me and wanted to be together; I had to work really hard at it and it wasn't easy, so I chose to TRY.

Ive been dealing with anxiety/panic disorder periodically for over a decade. I travelled very little, always wanted to drive places by myself, never wanted to go far from home. She was always amazing during these times. She drove the kids everywhere, would go to family things without me and make up excuses why I wasnt there, went on trips with friends/family without me because I couldn't go. Although she was fine with this for a very long time she started to build up resentment towards me because of it. She said I could have made more of an effort to do things close to the house. She is right, and I completely understand how this has all caught up with her, shes basically had to take care of most things.

Even though she was amazing during this time, do you understand how hard it must have been for her? For all of those years, she 'tried' to make your M work even though her needs were not being met. (I know, a S cannot meet all of your needs and happiness has to come from within, however, there is a reasonable expectation that your S will meet SOME of your needs and a great deal of them most likely were not being met because of what you were dealing with). I am sure she did not like attending all events alone and making excuses for why you weren't there, etc. The fact that she is 'trying' to make your M work means that there is part of her that isn't ready or willing to give up yet. It took years for your M to disintegrate and she tried to keep it together so please do not be offended that she is 'trying' to put it back together.

I think your right in that she deciding whats going to make her happen in the long run. I'd hazard a guess that that question runs through her mind on a loop.

The happiness loop ran through my head for years. It took a long time for me to decide I needed to move on instead of putting all of my needs aside to remain in a M that wasn't meeting any of them. It also took a long time for me to believe that things could be different enough for them to be met in that same M. The LBS needs to understand how long the WAS took to become a WAS, how hard it was to reach that place and why they find it hard to believe things will be different. The LBS looks for things to be better a lot faster than it will be and they have a hard time understanding why it is so hard for the WAS when they have changed so much. The reality is, it takes almost as long to come back (if not longer) than it did to finally give up and emotionally leave your M.

During our last R convo last a month ago she said we had "too much surface convo". I don't necessary agree with this but I am trying to get a little "deeper" than the surface.

What you must remember is that two people doing the same thing will have two different experiences. You don't agree because it isn't your experience; that doesn't mean it isn't your wife's experience of the same situation.

I've always done a lot around the house. I'm confident its more than the average husband. Many times its more than my W. I know W would agree.

Depending on her LL, your W either finds this nice and she appreciates it (hopefully), or it makes her feel loved. These are two completely different things. My H has always done laundry, cooked, cleaned, stops at the store for me on his way home so I don't have to go, runs out for my 1/2 & 1/2 if I am out in the morning, etc. I APPRECIATE this a lot and I always tell him so. It does NOT make me feel loved in any way; I would trade all of the little things he does for more time with him and more affection.

Big ones for women are usually admiration (sounds like you have been doing that now), physical affection (not sex, just touch- letting her know that you care), and conversation. It sounds to me like conversation is a BIG one for her, and it is what she was getting from the OM since he was so far away. It's also probably why she is complaining about it not being right for her yet (by complaining, I mean she has told you in so many words that she would like this fulfilled differently for her). I would take what she has said at face value and find a way to meet that for her. The best way would be to ask her directly. Perhaps you could say, "I've been thinking a lot about your wanted less "surface" conversation, and wanting deeper conversation. I'd like to do this for you. Could you give me an example of what such a conversation would look like?".

Hopeful gave you great advice. You may think you are doing what W needs and you may be missing the mark so coming right out and asking her lets her know you are trying. I hope you have done this or will do it soon

One of the little things I've noticed about W this year is she's fairly judgmental of others and has distanced herself to a degree with many around her. Even her BF. A bit emotionally cold compared to the way she used to be. Not all the time, it just comes through every now and then. Theres just something that shines through at times of just not being herself.

It is hard trying to figure out your life and what decision to make. I know when I didn't feel differently right away, and each time H would do something that reinforced my belief it couldn't work, I would question everything. I didn't have the same energy for life because thoughts of 'what should I do' 'will this work' 'do I want to stay' occupied almost every minute of day. H told me many times he thought I was depressed, and to some extent I was. Working things out internally changed that and I feel completely different. If your W is struggling with what to do with your M and her life, this would be normal to some extent. I didn't want to be bothered with a lot of stuff because I didn't have the time or patience for it. I only had the time and patience for my friends who 'understood' me and that I could talk to about everything. Being in limbo is no easier for the WAS than it is for the LBS.

[Pudmuddle]

I love hearing your experience from the other angle love. Good read.

[BC39]

I don't believe it is. I, too, had to 'try' to get back into my M, and it took a long time. This was after years of 'trying' to ignore my loneliness, 'trying' to accept that my M wasn't what I wanted or expected, 'trying' to believe that my H cared about me when everything said he didn't. It took years for me to give up on my M, I couldn't jump right back in just because H realized he loved me and wanted to be together; I had to work really hard at it and it wasn't easy, so I chose to TRY.

I know, you're right. She has to "try" before any feelings may come back.

Even though she was amazing during this time, do you understand how hard it must have been for her? For all of those years, she 'tried' to make your M work even though her needs were not being met. (I know, a S cannot meet all of your needs and happiness has to come from within, however, there is a reasonable expectation that your S will meet SOME of your needs and a great deal of them most likely were not being met because of what you were dealing with). I am sure she did not like attending all events alone and making excuses for why you weren't there, etc.

It must have been tremendously hard for her, this fact is not lost on me. Things in this regard have been MUCH better for the last year.

The fact that she is 'trying' to make your M work means that there is part of her that isn't ready or willing to give up yet. It took years for your M to disintegrate and she tried to keep it together so please do not be offended that she is 'trying' to put it back together.

Again, I know you're right.

I'm guilty of impatience at times. (I save the venting for here)

It's been a year and half since BD, and she's said she's had these feelings a year previous to that. So she's felt this way for 2 1/2 years.

I'm stating the obvious, and I know it could take a long time... but it's hard.

I made a transformation emotionally and physically over a year ago. I'm a much better version of the person she was "in love" with not that long ago. But that wall is still up. I know its not that simple, I just wish it was.

Then I read this and remind myself to stay patient:

The happiness loop ran through my head for years. It took a long time for me to decide I needed to move on instead of putting all of my needs aside to remain in a M that wasn't meeting any of them. It also took a long time for me to believe that things could be different enough for them to be met in that same M. The LBS needs to understand how long the WAS took to become a WAS, how hard it was to reach that place and why they find it hard to believe things will be different. The LBS looks for things to be better a lot faster than it will be and they have a hard time understanding why it is so hard for the WAS when they have changed so much. The reality is, it takes almost as long to come back (if not longer) than it did to finally give up and emotionally leave your M.

A lot of insight here

What you must remember is that two people doing the same thing will have two different experiences. You don't agree because it isn't your experience; that doesn't mean it isn't your wife's experience of the same situation.

Very good point.

Hopeful gave you great advice. You may think you are doing what W needs and you may be missing the mark so coming right out and asking her lets her know you are trying. I hope you have done this or will do it soon

We did discuss this (and other things I'll discuss later) this weekend.

She said she feels during a lot of our conversations she feels like she's talking to a friendly acquittance.

I asked her who she felt she didn't have "surface convo's" with. She said her family. When I asked her "how so?", she said she felt like she could be "more herself" with them.

This really surprised me, and I want to say that can't be true and I want to blame some of it on her WAW thoughts, but two people share different experiences right?

It is hard trying to figure out your life and what decision to make. I know when I didn't feel differently right away, and each time H would do something that reinforced my belief it couldn't work, I would question everything. I didn't have the same energy for life because thoughts of 'what should I do' 'will this work' 'do I want to stay' occupied almost every minute of day. H told me many times he thought I was depressed, and to some extent I was. Working things out internally changed that and I feel completely different. If your W is struggling with what to do with your M and her life, this would be normal to some extent. I didn't want to be bothered with a lot of stuff because I didn't have the time or patience for it. I only had the time and patience for my friends who 'understood' me and that I could talk to about everything. Being in limbo is no easier for the WAS than it is for the LBS.

Again, great insight here.

I am compassionate for what she is going through, and have told her so.

..........

Thanks LTH, your insight from the other side is invaluable to me.

W and I got into a R talk over the weekend. It came up after she backtracked on going to RetroV as I suspected she would.

I'll give more details when I get another couple minutes...

[BC39]

W backtracked on RetroV.

When I asked her why, her first concern was that it had too much to do with religion and the church. I assured her that I have read from people that have gone that that is not really the case.

The she said she didn't feel comfortable talking about our issues. I told her the only person she would be talking to was me. She proceeded to tell me she didn't always feel comfortable talking to me about it either and that she didn't want any confrontation. (for the record I am NOT confrontational so I was really surprised to hear this. She's even thanked me for this numerous times during our sitch. She said she felt safe talking to me when I asked her during our last R talk. She seems to flip flop a lot)

She said she wished she could just go by herself.

So I suggested she go see an IC. She said she thought that was a good idea but I fairly confident that will go no where.

We got into a brief R discussion. This was over a week ago so the details are a bit foggy, but there was nothing "new" discussed.

She reiterated that she had many little feelings pre BD that all turned to concrete when the EA was busted. And although I'm a much better version of who I was before she still hasn't got the feelings back.

I once again told her the feelings are going to magically come back and that she needed to get the proper tools to help her. She agreed. (She agreed the last time this came up, but has done nothing about it)

I told her the "craving" she said she was looking for (during our last R convo 1.5 months ago) was the "easy" part. Finding some new attractive person you have no history with would be "easy" to crave because its new and exciting etc etc.

She said "I know".

We got interrupted by the kids and the convo ended.

She came up to me minutes later, gave me a kiss and told me she loved me. It had been at least a month previous to this that she's said that.

We seem to share a closeness after every R talk. I'm not sure if she sees that or not.

She still seems to be making an effort and "trying".

We haven't has S in 1.5 months. Thats a long time for us, even post BD.

I'm still being patient, but there's days I struggle. So far today is one of them.

I never have any idea whats going on in her head. I know its not in my control.

Working things out internally changed that and I feel completely different.

I know it may be controlling, but I know there's going to come a day when I am going to flat out tell my W she needs to do this ^^^^ if she wants any change. That she is the only one that can make herself happy etc

[HopefulStill]

BC,
I've said this before, but there are a lot of similarities here to my experience. It's frustrating, because you know there is a path back to a good M, but your wife is being passive and not acting. It's a stressful existence, to put it mildly.

What I was fighting, and I think you are too, was continued interaction with the OM. It keeps them holding on to the fantasy of the affair, and it guarantees that her mind won't be focused on a relationship with you. It seems there are times when she is more involved with talking to him than at other times. Perhaps this is one of those times? It seems that you have done what you can at this point, it's really got to come down to her. You know my story, for us it came down to a choice point- until then she was "fogged out". It still amazes me as I read posts on here how similar the scripts are among total strangers.

My view on IC for your wife- I'd avoid it. I agree with MWD and others that it can make things worse for your M. Many ICs will unwittingly push your wife towards "chasing her own dream" and possibly leaving you for the OM. Not many seem really committed to saving marriages (many are divorced themselves!). You can fix this on your own. Right now, your wife isn't thinking clearly because she is effectively on drugs- addicted to her affair. She can't really "feel" your changes, even though she can recognize them. If she could stop communicating with him forever, I know that she would come back to you in her heart. Unfortunately, if she's feeling down, or just wants to see if he's there, she can reach out whenever she wants (and he to her as well).

My heart goes out to you, I know it's very hard.
-hs