Learning compassion

[RockJC]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I think my decision is clear. Once I speak to my L, I am going to move out.

[25yearsmlc]

as we read along, let's not forget the title of this thread is about Learning Compassion...

Lanzo, I spent most of my marriage giving in to her and avoiding conflict. this was a 180 off me. i thought I could learn to assert myself without these issues escalating.

HOW will you learn these? By reading books and coming here?

Rock, you need NEW BEHAVIORAL TOOLS for that. Clearly. So What type of professional help are you getting in order to gain these tools?

Every time I have tried, however, it ends up escalating into a mess. I don't know how to establish boundaries with her. I really thought I took a reasoned approach on this one.


No thinks they're taking an "unreasonable/crazy' approach. We ALL justify our positions b/c we have our own perspectives. You need a new point of view AND NEW TOOLS.

Do you disagree with that statment?


The money isn't that important. It is such a small fraction of the bills that I am already paying. It is the disrespect. Once I give in to a bully who is willing to use my kids to manipulate me, where does it end?


I thought this fee was for your daughters...

So if THEY are the priority, but YOU FEEL disrespected by your wife

then denying your daughters' wants or needs accomplishes what? The feeling of being disrespected by your wife and the wounded pride that is glowing, is your focus here...(again).

I don't think that is where it ought to be.


Yes, I could just pay the bills and avoid the conflict. I am just not sure that is the right thing to do.

Rock, you DO know the right thing to do.

But your wounded pride is being confused with self respect.

Put the girls first, KNOW that you did so through out this (or tried to) and you'll always be able to hold your head high.

As it is so far, there is a lot of disagreement about how you exposed her on fb (but "only to close friends") and involved your daughters and other people and told the elders at your church a private matter

and throughout, the only "insights" you have worked on are more about how yu won't be mistreated again, than about changing any negative traits of yours.

Like you "won't be a victim" is saying something humble. IT's not.

You WANT to be a good man. I believe that counts for a lot.

But that undertone of self righteousness shines thru. And it seems to be that you might have an inability to really own your role in things...

I say that b/c you spend a lot of time telling us your unchanged viewpoint, and worse, that you would do the same things again, which frightens me. If more than one rational person told me they thought I had blown an event or had the wrong approach, or that I ought to double check my motivation. I WOULD.

I would not continue to defend myself b/c I'd be FORCED (in my world I'd feel forced b/c I would value that input and have to really dig thru it)

to examine my beliefs and motivation. When someone disagrees with my position even after I explain it thoroughly, then it's NOT that they don't understand it, or that they don't have good morals.

If more than one disagrees with me, then the Chances are much higher that my ego or my pain is blinding me.

How could I be so stubborn to say that I'd do the "same thing again" if people who read my thread, ALL pretty much think I was wrong?
But that's your position on several things.

So give that some brave honest evaluation. Try not to entrench yourself....ever...
B/C if I, 25, had it all to do over again, there are a TON of things I would do differently.

THAT^^ statement is what I'd be telling my daughters and wife, If I were you...it's not doormatish and it shows you do see your role in this. AND it shows you can change!

But you're still making her wrong WHILE wanting to do the right thing...SO

tell me (or just dig DEEPER and ask yourself)

if you want to be SEEN as doing the right thing,

or you want to DO the right thing even if no one is watching.


Truly putting your children first will always be the the right place to start. Make sure they KNOW they are loved by both parents


YES it's your job to reassure them of their mother's love too, b/c she may not be able to do so.
She may be having a type of nervous breakdown OR

be so fed up with her needs not being met that she thinks she has nothing to give... Regardless

Every parent has to do this reassuring for the absent parent when the kids feel hurt by the other parent, or abandoned or neglected.

I know I did and it came fairly easy b/c I SO wanted my d's to feel loved by their dad even when (or especially when)he was gone far away.

There is no way for your d's Not to feel rejected on the surface. So if you just nod and agree that you are ALL victims, (b/c you "don't want to LIE") then it hurts and damages them MORE...

AND their need to feel maternal love is more important than what you think is "the truth".

There is a song you ought to listen to, the lyrics are compelling, although directed at a LBwife...it's called "Because," by Kelly Clarkson...

Hang in there Rock. Wanting to be a man of strength and honor, will always help you in life, now and later.

It was/is the motto of some of the truly heroic men I've met here on these boards..."faith is believing" and "faithful husband" and Was2Sad are but a few...

if you ever find their threads, read them.

Faithful husband DID reconcile with his wife and they seem pretty darn happy. They moved to Texas.
FIB (=faith is believing,) did Not reconcile but is pretty happily divorced and he and his ex get along a lot better now than when they were married. She was very challenging for him...

and Was2 ended up separating. But his r's with his children deeply improved...ALL the men said their r's with their children improved and the trauma/ordeal made them better dads...and later on, better h's. There is a silver lining but it's mostly what WE make ourselves.

Good luck!

Strength and Honor, my friend.

[RockJC]

25 - I listed a specific ineteraction here, because I was looking for specific feedback on how to change my behaviour.

Labug implies that I should have stopped communicating after the first interaction went negative.

You and Lanzo recommend that I avoid the conflict by simply paying the bills.

There seems to be agreement that the situation is damaging to my kids and that my W and I need to physically seperate.

I am very conflicted and don't really know what to do in these situations. I am seeing a professional counselor, reading books, and talking with friends. The advice is often contradictory.

You say "if people who read my thread, ALL pretty much think I was wrong?". But the reality, is that I get all sorts of feedback. The advice from you and Mr. Bond, and others on this site is typically out of the mainstream of advice I get. Even within this site, there are legitimate differences of opinion. In most of these situations, there is no "right answer".

I will think some more about these comments, but the general idea that I am "Self rightous", driven by "wounded pride", or unwilling to work on my "negative traits" is just not true. It is not who I am. I read these comments, I think about them, I talk to family and friends and I form an opinion. Sometimes it results in regret (the FB post), sometimes it re-inforces my action (the church), but in most cases, there is thoughtfull reflection and the willingness to reconsider my viewpoint.

Also, I want you to know that I do understand the need for my children to have a good connection with their mother and I am doing my best to reinforce that and not to harm it. Unfortunately, interactions like this with my W make it difficult. Maybe it is time to move out.

Thank you for taking the time to write. I do value your opinion, and consider your words carefully.

[RockJC]

Just to be clear, your comment

//then denying your daughters' wants or needs accomplishes what?//

Is based on a misunderstanding of the situation. My kids will continue to do all of these activities. My W can afford them and is unwilling to pull them out of these activities. In the end she will pay the bill, regardless of what I do.

Personally, I think my kids are overscheduled, and it would be good for them if some of these activities dropped off the table.

[whatisis]

Why not discuss this with your wife? Co-parenting, whether together or apart, is a matter of working together. If you feel the kids are way over scheduled why not discuss it with her and with them. That's a separate issue from the cost and a very legitimate concern.

[25yearsmlc]

Why not discuss this with your wife? Co-parenting, whether together or apart, is a matter of working together. If you feel the kids are way over scheduled why not discuss it with her and with them. That's a separate issue from the cost and a very legitimate concern.

Especially discuss it with THEM but be prepared for them wanting to be "super busy", b/c they are in pain. I am not sure how they'll react but if they are given time to think it out, they will probably choose wisely.

also Rock I don't want to bash you. The traits YOU said you would work on or what you would do differently if you were to remarry

are what struck me as missing the mark. You spoke mostly, not all but mostly, about being treated better in your next r.

you said your work would be about staying in better shape.

I'm saying, dig a little deeper.

And yes you will get different advice OFF this forum than on...but not everyone in your life is willing to tell their honest opinion

and or


they are angry at your w or want to see you out of pain.

Most of the posters here have seen a punitive streak or a self righteous streak or a need to be "right", and many have commented on it. I don't know how you can say it's so conflicting.

Anyhow, keep up the work. It pays off.

[kat727]

Perhaps the difference between the friends you know and the posters on here, is that we have gone through it. It is the worst experience I have ever been through in my life.

The thing that brought the most change was my focus. I knew I had to get myself and my kids through this. If I kept focusing on my ex I wasn't going to get anywhere. It is important to dig deep and be honest about yourself to yourself. Before your wife cheated, did you have problems? What part did you play in those situations? Did you listen to your wife's love language and show love in the way she needed? Did you work as a team with things around the house and with raising the kids? Did you have dates with your wife?

Look at your answers and think how you could have done things better if not differently. I am not sure if I have read anywhere if you are done trying to save your relationship or not. Regardless, you will need to know these things going into the future.

kat

[RockJC]

Of course I have tried to discuss it with my wife. She disagrees and is going to do whatever she wants. Everything needs to be her way.

It is a difficult discussion to have with the kids because they don't see the costs of having an overscheduled hectic life. They just are not mature enough to see what is being lost.

[RockJC]

//You spoke mostly, not all but mostly, about being treated better in your next r.//

I know that the focus is supposed to be on yourself. You are the only person you can change. I hear it, I get it. But I have to be honest with myself. When I look back at our history and the conflicts in our marriage I don't know what I would have done different.

I never had a partner. I never had someone who would emotionally connect to me. There was no compromise, no discussion. Everything had to be her way. My W is not normal. She is emotionally distant and extremely controlling. I thought these things would change as we got older, but they just got worse.

I look at Kat's list of questions:

//Before your wife cheated, did you have problems?// Yes, a lack of intimicy and connnection. Both of us felt alone. We had numerous disagreements and we did not communicate or reach legitimate compromises. In general, we did what she wanted.

//What part did you play in those situations?// After a while, I started to nag and then withdraw. I thought this was a normal part of the maturation of a marriage. Part of the nagging was legitimately asking for her to engage and work with me to improve our marriage. I always thought she was satisifed with our life because she had so much control over it.

//Did you listen to your wife's love language and show love in the way she needed?// Earlier in the marriage I did. Her LL is acts of service. Over time, I stopped feeling appreciated. I started feeling taken advantage of and used. I wanted more control over my life and a deeper emotional connection. I started to withdraw and stopped working so hard at satisfying her wants.

//Did you work as a team with things around the house and with raising the kids?// That is a complicated question. She is an accountant, so for 4 months of the year I am a single parent. When she is home, I felt like we worked OK together. She views it differently. What is the standard? How do you measure it? I never felt appreciated for any of the work I did around the house.

//Did you have dates with your wife?// No. Our life was dominated by kids and kids activities. Like I have said so many times, I begged for a stronger emotional connection. I asked her to go out on dates. I asked her to spend more time with me. She just didn't feel it was important. She didn't want to pay for a babysitter.

If I was a woman in a physically abusive relationship, would you ask the question "What did you do to cause the abuse?" Of course you wouldn't. I look back at my marriage, especially the last year, and I see an emotionally abusive relationship.

I banged my head against a wall for years. Eventually, I stopped banging. My LL was not returned. My efforts were not reciprocated. I constantly gave and got nothing back. It wears you out over time.

I always thought she would want more and make some changes. I know I wanted more. I never imagined the changes she would actually make.

When I look back, given the way my W treats people, I don't think it would have been possible to have a better M. This is what I honestly believe. I really believe that she needs help.

Why is it impossible for this to be true? Why can't I come to this conclusion without being "Self rightous", or "Blinded by hurt pride"?

Was I perfect - No. If I was perfect, would my marriage have been any better? I really doubt it.

//Look at your answers and think how you could have done things better if not differently.// I am absolutely convinced that the #1 thing I could have done better was to pick a W who was willing to commit and work on a marriage. My W never was. That was the foundation that was missing in our M. Without that, I was just rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

No - I am not trying to save this relationship any longer.

25mlc - I am going to ask you to dig deeper. Is it possible that this is an accurate assesment?

[whatisis]

The thing to look at then is why did you find and commit to a R such as this? You got something out of it or you wouldn't have done it. It sounds as though she was never a warm and fuzzy person but you committed to her anyway. If you thought you could change her then that's certainly something to look at about yourself. I'm certainly not being judgmental just saying you need to look at how you got into such a sitch and what YOU got out of it otherwise you may, and most people do, repeat that experience in the future. Think about it. Then what are you going to do about yourself to change it for future relationships. Tough work, I know!