Lifestyle changes

[25yearsmlc]

For four years I did criminal Defense for defendants. Many were sex offenders.

I DID have some truly innocent clients. Indeed, of the 6 clients I had who were innocent, ALL were accused of sex abuse
and all were in divorce courts.

However, most were factually and legally guilty. I cross examined chidren on the witness stand and gave seminars on how to do so.

I'm not really proud of being an expert on this, b/c it's a creepy topic. But I believe in our judicial system (usually) and think if we can treat molesters fairly, we can trust that our system is relatively decent for ourselves and loved ones.

SOME young kids do make up things. Maybe to please an adult, or to get attention, or b/c they come to believe things that were planted in their minds. Almost all children will focus their attention on genitalia on a doll if it is "anatomically accurate" b/c their dolls are so different. Courts now view this with little regard as a technique for determining veracity.

However At a certain age it's either the truth or an intentional lie. Some teens who don't want to move again for dad's job, or face their dad's discipline might make something up.

But when they see the damage being done and how serious it gets, they recant. AND OR they recant b/c they did not realize the dinner plate is broken if daddy leaves. Those are the saddest cases b/c the man might really have done it, but without him the whole family loses everything...

IMO
Your w's choice to deny any abuse is not that suprising but hey, did she ever invite him over? I think at at some level she did/does NOT trust him. She may not "know" why, but it's there.

The fact that the WHOLE family disowned him, speaks volumes to me. It says more than the courts treatment of victims back then.

From what I was told, there was a significant legal fight over sexual abuse allegations made by several other (female) family members. Apparently it came down to "He said / she said" and the charges were dropped.

Juries are supposed to decide whom to believe, not a DA or the police. Oh well...


She tried to adjust the custody arrangement to keep my father in law from my W and SIL and sent both kids to counseling. None of the allegations were corroborated and the custody arrangement was not adjustment.

Nearly impossible to "corrorborate," (absent intercourse and parental consent to an exam). In fact it's the least likely type of case to have corroboration and the supposed requirement is ironic to hear, and now, its false to say you have to have it.

Moving on...


My FIL's family was essentially disowned him and he has not had contact with them for years.

Disowned could be b/c the MIL poisoned everyone with her evil lies...but he never contacted them??...well THAT says something to me.

When we had kids, my MIL insisted that we did not let FIl watch our kids.

My W insists that it was all nonsense and that she was never abused.

Did your wife reach out to her dad or not? That's an issue.



I tended to believe her thinking "Why would she lie", until I had the conversation with her the other day where it was clear that she had completely suppressed the reality of us having sex in the last year. Her denials were completely sincere.

I believe you. YIKES...

[25yearsmlc]

So maybe just focus on you. Don't talk about everything she Iis doing or not doing. Treat her like the postman and work on you. You don't need to talk about her because again, we are only talking about you and how to make you better.

You've got some work to do so let's getting it started.

kat

I missed this post and Bonds. I guess I missed a whole page.

THESE POSTS are solid pieces of advice.

[RockJC]

25 - that must have been a difficult line of work.

It is hard for me to imagine anyone sexually abusing a child, which is why I tended to give my FIL the benefit of the doubt. My W works at keeping a relationship with her dad and talks to him fairly regularly. He was invited to all our family functions.

Her sister and 2 step sisters have no contact with him. Her younger step sister in particular has called him "Creepy" and said that she did not want to be around him, and would not bring her friends to the house.

My W would limit contact with our kids and her dad, but I think it was done to appease her mom, and not really out of concern for our kids safety.

All of this happened long before I ever met my W, so I only hear stories. I have no idea of the truth.

[RockJC]

Very possible.

[25yearsmlc]

I can imagine her mother trying to make her admit to sexual abuse that wasn't true against her own father could have been equally traumatic to use her as a pawn. She obviously has some pretty serious unresolved issues and trauma. It's clear.

Gabby, your ^^ point cannot be overstated. EITHER WAY, true allegations or false,

what a nightmare for your Rock's w.

[MrBond]

Alright, I'll give it a shot.

"I have compassion for her"

No you don't. At least not in terms of actions. I don't think you see that what you say isn't backed up by any action. I believe none of what you say and half of what you do. You say you have compassion for her (and you never mentioned her prior abuse - real or false), yet you cut her off from alot of things because your feelings were hurt. To me, having the stigma of sexual abuse with you since you were a child far outweighs your hurt feelings.

"I see that she is hurting"

Same as above.

"I forgive her daily and will continue to forgive her."

Um no, I don't think you realize that your posts suggest that you will only forgive her IF you have space, if she apologizes, if she pretty much begs to come back and fix herself. It doesn't happen like that. AND you can't have forgiveness without compassion.

"I didn't kick her out of the church. If she feels the need to attend church, there are dozens out there to go to.

You don't understand that those who have experienced abuse tend to set up "safe places" for them to go to. YOUR church was a safe place for her. And because she hurt your feelings, you brought it up to the church leaders who confronted her and she argued with them. It's what people who have been abused do. That church was probably one of the only places where she felt safe and she only got defensive when that sanctity was threatened. You don't see that because you are letting your own emotions get in the way of compassion for her. If you really understood what had gone through her mind, you might see that. Now I could be wrong, but look at everyone else's posts to you. Everything that your W has told you has suggested that there was some sort of abuse whether it be sexual or emotional.

If it was one of your D's who was molested by a family member and she did alot of praying in the church, then she did something wrong which had nothing to do with the church and chose to stay in the church to seek forgiveness or some kind of path, but was kicked out because of her action. Would you support it?

"I am trying to put legitimate boundaries in place. Boundaries are a type of control. You can't have healthy relationships without some level of control. None of us lives life completely free."

But your relationship is NOT healthy and won't be healthy until you understand that your W needs to heal with guidance. That's what the "for better or worse" part comes in. Boundaries are for actions that DIRECTLY affect you. The church issue didn't affect you directly. That's between God and your W. I mean, it's like you're saying that if your W shows up at your kids' school with OM, you are going to complain to the school to have your W leave. Or if she goes to some sports event, you are going to tell the coach about her. At what point do you stop?

"I would not call what I am doing "Walking away". I was %100 committed to this marriage. I was there for her, I was understanding and compassionate. There is a point, however, when someone tells you that they don't love you, don't want to be with you and that they will NEVER treat you with any respect, that you have to let them go."

You did read DR right? That is why the "don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do" is in there. We ALL have heard that. And you know what? It changes.

"What? I really think the best thing for us is D and separation. Maybe then, she can start healing too."

IMHO dealing with abused persons myself personally, I don't think she can.

"The way we are living now is not good for her, me or the kids. I don't see how it can get any better."

By REALLY showing compassion here. I understand you don't want the church issue brought up, but it's important. The fact that you try to downplay it, shows that you aren't as compassionate as you might think you are. ON my journey with my W, she worked with the OM, so she saw him more than our kids or me. I did alot of praying and in the end I decided to not cut her out of anything even though I was hurting. The times I did hurt, I did more praying and when I thought I couldn't handle it anymore, I prayed some more. After awhile I understood that compassion and forgiveness are intertwined. I understood she was hurting and did small actions to show her I was. In the end she saw that and appreciated the forgiveness that came with it. Many of us have gone through that same trial.

Again, this is NOT a criticism. You are indeed free to do and shelter your feelings how ever you see fit. Some can handle it and some can't. The point of my whole comment is just to make you think. You don't need to argue back against this post point by point. My comment was just to make you think.

[25yearsmlc]

25 - that must have been a difficult line of work.


Yes It was. It wasn't by choice.

One innocent client (who was convicted at trial, and then I appealed and it eventually went to the US Supreme Court, btw) got me involved in several constitutional issues that arise in these types of cases. That led me to be appointed for other cases.

The issues of confronting your witness, getting hearsay statements from children, emotionally charged divorce cases, are common themes in these cases.
So it made sense for my boss to keep giving me the cases, but I was deeply affected by the innocent men accused, and the guilty men who felt little or NO remorsee for their behaviors.

I was a new mother, and then we had our D1. After the pregnancy and birth, I was burnt out and tired of the ugliness polluting my life.

SO THEN IT WAS NEW JOB TIME.


It is hard for me to imagine anyone sexually abusing a child, which is why I tended to give my FIL the benefit of the doubt.

I understand you. On more than one occasion I have told a client "No I DO NOT understand why stress/painful childhood/long hours, would affect you this way or 'make you do it'. I know lots of men and I have 5 brothers who also do not understand...."

But it's a risk everyone with daughters (and sons) has, sadly..
I am NOT one of those alarmists who think "more men than ever: are doing this", b/c I think it's reported a lot more.
OTOH we know that some LBW or WAWs actually convince themswelves it happened. Check out Alamos's thread sometime if you want to see a sahd, falsely accused when he fought the move his wife wanted to make.

MY LAST COMMENT on this...probably is that I have also seen

otherwise good, moral women, (and or men) become so infuriated, so threatened, so insulted, AND SO AFRAID,

when their WAS leaves for OP and wants to step parent the kids TOO,

the LBS will do or say anything to keep the kids, calling the wives slutty or UNFIT, or accuse the fathers of abuse even if it means robbing their children of an otherwise fit parent. Because In their (LBS) eyes, what do they have to lose?

So they go for broke. IF you see signs of that type of attitude, I suggest NO unwitnessed contact, playmates and supervised time with the kids (with family or friends YOU trust to verify truthfully)

UNTIL these issues are settled. Hopefully this is a non issue but as a L, I felt it needed to be said at least once.

But I'm done on that arena unless you have questions.



My W works at keeping a relationship with her dad and talks to him fairly regularly. He was invited to all our family functions.

Was he ever asked to sit for your kids? If so, what did You think? How did the mil react?

And how are your kids with him now? And before now? Why'd you say there was "no contact with fil" if there was? I mean, did he come over or not?


Her sister and 2 step sisters have no contact with him. Her younger step sister in particular has called him "Creepy" and said that she did not want to be around him, and would not bring her friends to the house.


Still? ^^^ VERY TELLING


My W would limit contact with our kids and her dad, but I think it was done to appease her mom, and not really out of concern for our kids safety.


This ^^^ is a dangerous level of mind reading AND inaction on YOUR Part. You chose the path easiest for YOU.

Go ahead. I know you will now

Tell us why that was "absolutely the morally correct" and infallible/irrefutably right choice..but the fact is

YOU had reason to worry.

ALL her female relatives avoided him. All of them STILL prevented their kids from being alone with him....except you and your wife.???

Don't skimp here. "She assured me" it was all nonsense, and "why would she lie?" Because MAYBE she's a victim of abuse who doesn't want to admit it. Like many.

Ask yourself Why would they all lie? ALL to "appease their mother" ---so they deny a R with their grandfather--- ALL these years later? Really?

look, maybe you can just admit one thing.

Your morally correct position HAPPENS to be what was/is easiest for You...didn't rock the boat. And wasn't that possibly

At your kids expense?

Does that MEAN they were abused? No. NO it does not.

It means you took that risk and it's not the "same risk" we all take.

But let's not beat a dead horse if there is nothing you are going to do about it or change....

and OR

if it's all done now.


All of this happened long before I ever met my W, so I only hear stories. I have no idea of the truth.

What??

How do you mean it "all happened long before"? He was gone from their family

and disowned by the time you showed up.

But since THEN, you have or have not, allowed him into your kids lives? I can no longer tell.

Enough.

Rock, if you never thought about it before I am sure you will now. So I will say no more

but don't go on about how you were "right about it all" eitherts . The arguing only gets us so far before it's just arguing.

Let's just

move on to your GAL and letting go of what SHE does or what you think of it.

Clearly we won't agree on how you portray or report your w to others.

So let's focus on how you'll work on your father daughter r's.
How's that going? Any new movies of interest to discuss? Any new people in Their lives?

I promise to see the Perks of Being a Wallflower again, as I am sure my d16 (now 16...wow) will approve.

[RockJC]

The legal fight over the child abuse allegations and my FIL/MIL divorce was long
over; Not my W's relationship with her dad.

My FIL's family disowned him (brothers, sisters, etc...). He was not disowned by my W.

//This ^^^ is a dangerous level of mind reading// It wasn't mind reading. My W told me she was just doing it to appease her mom. I believed her.

//You...didn't rock the boat. And wasn't that possibly At your kids expense?//
Yes. This consistant behaviour was one of my biggest regrets in the marriage. I submitted to my W on almost all decisions. It was done to avoid conflict - as you put it to "not rock the boat". In this case, I had significant doubts in the back of my mind and knew that it was the wrong, cowardly thing to do, but I still submitted. My FIL was not left alone with the kids. When he babysat, my W's step mom was present. This made it easier to swallow, but it was still a big parenting mistake that I regret.

[labug]

It's not uncommon for there to be discrepancies in what gets reported in sexual abuse. We're all different people and what we want from R is very different, threats made will have more impact on some and not others.

I'm sure 25 said this but just because he's wasn't convicted doesn't mean he's not guilty. I don't know what happened but if it walks like a duck...

How do you want your girls to see their mother? Keep in mind that their feelings about themselves will be greatly influenced by how you interact with your W and the respect you show or don't show her.

[RockJC]

This thread has gotten pretty long and meandered through multiple topics. I am starting a new one:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2384166&#Post2384166