I am titanium

[Wonka]

Raine!!!

Good to hear from you, my friend.

In all of those deep discussion topics, I'm hearing the following items clearly from H:

1) He's trying to 'find' himself
2) His primary LL is clearly QT
3) He sees you as the Rock and wants to hang on to you
4) Feeling somewhat insecure about himself and is now looking to you for reassurance
5) In an indirect way, he is asking for time and patience from you while he picks up the pieces of self and integrating these parts

In the car he said that tonight, the night of the concert he felt more like himself than he has in a very long time, but that it's not himself. It's not his old self, and he can never go back to being that person again. And he said he couldn't articulate what he was trying to say, so I jumped in. I said, "Do you mean there are parts of you old self and new parts that are coming together to form the real self?" And he said yes, that's it

That would have been music to my ears if Ms. Wonka had said the very same exact thing to me. I think this is brilliant, Riane. Hey for the rest of you LBS with MLCer, please take note of this quote and post it in your file for future reference. To me, that would be the most validating statement that acknowledges the confusion I went through and trying to sort myself out.

You're doing great, Raine. Stay patient and be supportive to your H through this part of the journey. I'd like to think that the worst is behind for the pair of you.

[RosaLinda]

Thank you Wonka for your insight into Raine's H's MLC confusion from their discussions. It's helpful to all of us! My H has said he is not himself, but no sign of sorting himself out yet! Patiently waiting

[Raine]

Wow Wonka, that is really spooky. H took the LL test before BD. I think when he was trying to figure out what was wrong with "us." He told me he talked to me about this, but I don't remember. I don't remember him ever bringing it up until we were meeting with a MC after BD. He has mentioned this several times that he talked to me about this and upset that I didn't remember him doing so. I think I would remember my H bringing up something like this...I mean what woman wouldn't? The first time I ever heard of the book was from the MC, but who knows. Just as likely he did and I wasn't "listening."

So his result after the LL test? Yes, you guess it. Quality Time.

Thanks for all the validation. I am trying to be there for him, be supportive, giving him space, but most of the time I question myself. It's so nice to just be me, without questioning everything I'm doing and saying.

[Raine]

"The things that people in love do to each other they remember, and if they stay together it's not because they forget, it's because they forgive."

I've gone back and started reading reachingHigher's thread, starting with Where the rubber meets the road.... I read that originally at the time, but I was in such a different place. My sitch was in such a different place. And now I'm reading it and seeing so many parallels. But I am not trusting anything. And I realize that is the best place to be anyway. I see my posts in that thread back to rH and realize at that time 10 months ago, I had tons of hope. I didn't know anything compared to what I know now. And I still feel like there is tons I don't know and may never know. It is interesting to go back and read that and see how rH's H was still so much on the fence and seeing all of the emotions he had, how tears came to the surface easily. This is what I'm experiencing with my H right now too.

He continues to be more attentive and aware than ever before, even before MLC. He has offered to watch the two youngest, even the baby, so I could go and play with a group I would classify as "his" friends. I have never left him with the baby. He is calling the boys daily from work to check on them and make sure they're doing homework. He is calling me too daily, but there is always some reason for it, some question to ask that has nothing to do with me.

H and I spent all of last weekend together. About seven hours of that was in the car. And lots and lots of stuff came up. Trying to push down the anger and hurt and resentment is far more difficult than I ever imagined.

He controlled the music the entire time, and he had albums picked out he had saved just for this. Lots of songs about hope. A song he has played for me before when we were S that talks about there's no point in trying to change his mind, but if I ever call, he'll come running and fight to be at my door. He talked for awhile about this song. He said that he never realized how this song was him until I pointed it out to him. I never said otherwise, but I never pointed this out to him before. He did back during S. He is the one that pointed out how it related to him and that I should focus on the he would come running more than the mind made up part. Fact of the matter is, I'm his wife. I shouldn't have to call. I and the kids should not have had to go through what we did without him. But we did. And I'm not asking.

It's becoming very apparent to me that H too is a fixer. He likes to fix, solve, make others happy, even at the cost of his own happiness. But there is a clear feeling there towards me that I don't need him anymore. I don't need him to fix me. I don't need him to make me happy. And his slew of OW all did. All are messed up, insecure, Daddy issues, etc. A fixer needs someone to fix just as much as the other needs to be fixed.

We got into it a bit during this time too. Not fighting or angry, but he said one thing and it was an opening, and I dug in. All related to this concept of him being a fixer and part of that being that he likes to compliment other women. I had complimented a stranger and he told me he liked that I did that, cause he wanted to, but felt he couldn't. He was being sensitive to me. He is aware that I have sensitivities in that area and he is being careful about that. And somehow that convo start ended up at me saying I feel like the only reason he friended these two EAs on FB is because they were easy. He said absolutely not. Yeah, whatever. He doesn't know that I know about it reaching that point with them, so of course the hiding it just makes me more annoyed. I don't know how I went that far with it, but just a testament to the bottled up hurt and anger I'm feeling towards him and all of this. Innocent is not innocent anymore. That so much of me and my easy going nature has been destroyed by this. That things that would never bother me before, bother me. I don't want that. I don't like being like that. The one thing I thought I had with him was honesty, and to feel like the last three years have been full of lies, that's really difficult for me.

Lots of random stuff came up. Almost like he too has been holding things in he wants to tell me, but waiting for some moment to do so. He told me that he has never felt like he settled for me when he married me. I told him I never doubted that. I said I never felt I did either. He then said, "But you do now." I said, "No, not even now. I'm just sorry you got to the place you're in." We both ended up getting emotional. He said we shouldn't talk about stuff because we both just get upset. He also said he tells people what he thinks they want to hear so he can end the conversation.

He started talking more about counseling. I get the sense he told the C about the cheating and about the fear of being judged for it. He said that the C said that no one should judge him. H talked about it not as a right or wrong but as a taking control. That H did what he did to take control and made decisions that were his.

H said that it wasn't all about me being the one controlling his life but that he felt he had no control of anything.

I told him that there are lots of things I have done wrong. That I have hurt people. That for me to judge someone else means that I should then be judged too. And I don't want that. I said that I need to make amends and seek forgiveness, mainly for myself, so that I don't need to live with that.

[uRworthy]

Raine, I can feel so many things from you in that post. Anger, sadness, disillusionment, strength and more.

I know that going through this is so very hard. Not knowing what to believe, the rollercoaster of emotions, the hurt and pain you feel.

I want to say that he is in crisis. That is very clear. It is not a free pass on his actions. Not at all. But it is a reason for his mindset.

He knows something is very wrong. He cant figure out how to fix it. Nothing has worked so far. He keeps trying different things.

He is still in the tunnel, though he is struggling to get out. He is not ready to face his demons fully yet.

He has to, in order to come out the other side. You have to let him.

I just want to say, that you are a remarkable woman, Raine. And I hate to think that all this changes who you are inside.
I understand that you feel betrayed. You have every reason to feel that way.

But I also want you to know that you wont always.

So, leave him to his journey. You continue to look inside and walk yours.

Try not to let your hurt and anger get in the way of the of it

The greatest obstacle to connecting with our joy is resentment.

One day, you will be able to forgive him. Not forget, but, forgive.

Forgiveness is letting go of the past we thought we wanted.

[uRworthy]

Sorry, hit enter before I was finished.

I do see huge movement from him, Raine. I do.

You are doing wonderfully.

[Wonka]

Raine,

Lots of stuff happening in your sitch! The trick is not to rush in and try to "fix" things for your H. He needs to figure out stuff on his own and in his own time. One thing I do want to mention about trying to keep the road paved smooth for the WAS to come back home fully which is scorekeeping.

A while back, I mentioned in Linda's thread that for the MLCer, it is imperative that the stander not get into nit picking on the scorekeeping in regard to the hurts and resentment. In my case, it was painful for me when going through MLC and I wouldn't want Ms. Wonka to harp at me constantly on what awful deed(s) I've done because:

1) I most likely have no memory of it
2) Hearing that stuff will just dredge up more pain for me because from where I stand now as a 'whole' person, it would hurt me to hear that I've done those god-awful stuff during my MLC

To address that specific component, it would be helpful [and most probably will aid in the process] for you to reassure your H that you are NOT interested in judging him or punishing him. That will alleviate a lot of the inner pain and the fear of being judged by others. I recall being somewhat paranoid about having 6 pairs of eyeballs judging every move I made while in the midst of MLC when Ms. Wonka and I were all on our family vacation at Martha's Vineyard. That perceived pressure of judgmental looks and whatnot almost made me back out of the MV trip...Ms. Wonka, bless her heart, was very supportive and very calm in talking me into deciding to go to MV. She did in a superb way which made me think that I alone made the decision to go. Genius, heh!?

On many levels, I can relate to rH's H in telling her that it is up to her make things work. Why? In coming together and getting the heck out of the long, dark tunnel, we are somewhat tentative and look to the stander for guidance and direction in going forward. In many ways, a lot like how a child looks to the parent to read his/her moods and acts accordingly.

I hope I'm making some sense here! If not, then fire away your questions my dear Raine!

[job]

Raine,
You are doing great and your situation is coming along at a very slow pace and that's the way you want it, i.e., nice and slow. He has to fix himself and you, unfortunately, have to step aside and allow him to do so. Your situation reminds me of HRM's situation. You might want to read up on her postings to see just how frustrating and slow her process was.

Try to keep the focus on you and your children. Your h is growing up, but he needs to learn how to fix himself and better understand himself. Time, space and patience are what you will need, but I do think that things will work out in the end for you and your family if you can just hold on.

Take care.

[Raine]

Hey oh uR and Wonka! Thanks for your posts. They mean so much to me. Yup, I know I should not have taken that conversation to the point of commenting on his FB friends. And this is all part of the stuff I've been keeping inside, venting about here, but he doesn't get to see that. But every once in awhile something creeps out. I need to figure out how to deal with that better. In seven hours of talking, that was my one low point. Everything else was about as good as I get. The cheating and OW were there, like an elephant in the room. Just never mentioned directly or specifically.

I had to stop writing that post yesterday. It gets intense. I had no idea it could be so intense. When reading rH's back in December, I could not relate. I could just see the positives of it. I couldn't relate to how hard this is to hold back for the greater good.

I think I did a pretty good job of letting him know that I didn't judge him and that I'm not perfect. Wrong is wrong. Sin is sin. I'm just as guilty as he is. To judge him would be to judge myself. He has told me multiple times that he knows I am not judging him. I don't think he would be talking to me so much if that weren't true. But I don't know. It could be a bunch of testing too.

More stuff from these convos...

He told me something that happened on his way to work the other day. He said he looked in his rear view mirror and there was a woman in an SUV, attractive, our age, and when he looked back again, and she was crying, uncontrollably. He wanted to get out of his car and comfort her and tell her it's going to be okay. That she will get through this. That makes me emotional because that could have been me. That has been me. But he was never there. It's really difficult to hear him talking about other people and now even strangers that he wants to be there for but he doesn't seem to know or remember or want to know what I was going through when he left. I held it together and validated.

At one point I said "I like me. I like this person I have become." And he said, "everyone likes you. Everyone likes who you are."

I don't think I've talked about this on here, but there is something that has happened that is very minor, but I feel he doesn't like and is jealous about. There is an acquaintance of H who I met, and then this guy friended me on FB. This guy is good looking, very smart and well educated, and single. It's very friendly, but H has now brought this guy in relation to me up several times. At one point in the car H said, "Raine you know you are so pretty. There is a reason (this guy) friended you on FB." And I said, "Whatever. He just thinks I'm smart and wants to talk to me about stuff." And H said, "Yeah that's it. He wants to f'ing cuddle your smartness." This guy came over with some other friends a few days later and gave me a hug when he got here and when he left. It's totally innocent, but now since H has said stuff like this three times about him, I feel awkward around this guy. I think this guy really likes what my H has. I think he would switch him places in a heartbeat. He adores the kids and the family dynamic.

One thing that has helped in talking with H is that we have friends who are recently D, but they have been dealing with MLC horribly for over two years. The W is still in the place I was for two months. Obsessing, listening to his spew, just doing everything wrong. Other husband has completely blown his life apart. Put a check mark next to everything someone in MLC could do to destroy his life and family and he did it. So both H and I can look at that and think, wow we are doing really good. H can look and no he never destructed to the degree this other guy did. And I never let it reach the point where it affected the kids and everyone else.

H said the best thing I ever did was become so strong and do it so fast. He said it was the best thing for me, for the kids, and for him too. He said that I kept him grounded. That if not for me, it would have been so much worse than what it was. He would have self destructed even further. TBH I don't think he remembers much of what I mess I was at the beginning. But yes, I think I got strong super quick. I had to. I told him this actually. I said it wasn't doing anyone any good for me to live in that place. I had to make a choice to get strong for me and for the kids.

So anyway being able to talk about this couple really helps being able to talk about him and what is going on. I said, you know that there is a lot of stuff in this other husband's past that he is trying to cope with and there are things he never dealt with. My H said, "Oh I know. Believe me I know." I said to H that he was light years ahead of this other husband because he realizes that. H said he felt like this OH was trying to get back the glory time in his life and relive it. Not that he missed out on anything, but misses that time in his life. We talked about this OH's GF. I told him that the other wife has been obsessing about it, but I told her that there is a reason the other husband goes for her, because she will accept anything from him. Other husband can be a crappy boyfriend. No responsibilities, treat her like trash. Other husband is with her because she is not other wife. My H was agreeing every time I said something, "yup, yup, yup." And then he said other husband was with this girlfriend to boost his own ego.

So lots and lots of talking last weekend, but this week we've been pretty quite, keeping to ourselves more. He has been going out or keeping to himself while home. He has noticed something up with me, which is different for him to notice. It didn't have anything to do with him, and he said he knew for once that it didn't. I ended up talking to him about it. It was about a friend of mine, but he had a pretty non-emotional response to it, like c'est la vie and was sorry I was having to deal with it. I think it was a combination of several things that have been affecting me, but I could pin it all there and take him out of the equation. He said to let him know if he could help out more. I'm not sure on how to approach that. I just wish he would help more. Why do I need to ask?

He told my parents he was in C, which surprised me. He said it when they asked how long before his parents got here, and he gave it in terms of how many C sessions he had setup before they arrive. I thought that was interesting. He was using that as a way of counting down the time as opposed to days.

He doesn't seem to like going out as much as he did before. He complains about it a lot. Complains about the people he is with. He told me he could stay home if I needed him to. I said "nope, I'm good. Do what you want." I feel like he uses me as a scapegoat a lot and always has. He doesn't want to hurt feelings. Too much of that wanting to tell people what they want to hear stuff.


I need help getting over these negative feelings I am having, and I just don't know how best to do it. I feel I do a really good job not showing him any hurt and resentment. Even talking about the EAs on FB, it was done very calm, matter of fact and he even said no big deal.

Sometimes it's not a big deal. It's like he did all this before I even met him. And then sometimes I'm really disturbed by it. And it's not so much the cheating, it's that I feel like he has been there for other people when he wasn't there for me. That he abandoned me emotionally and physically at my darkest more difficult moment. I didn't have as hard of a time with him going and seeing OW1 that same morning for a booty call. Him having lunch with her is what was the worse thing. Him leaving me and the kids there in the parking lot to go and make sure she was okay, that he had lunch with her, that he got her back to work.

At the same time, I don't feel like my hurt is attached to him. Know what I mean? It's mine. Not that I'm blaming him or judging him or keeping score, but it's still there and I have to bury it, because it has a relation to him. Because what I'm feeling would make him feel bad.

I don't know how to get over it other than to just make a choice to get over it. I can rationalize the actions, not excuse them, but understand the why. But at the same time void the feelings that comes with it too...that's difficult. I haven't mastered that. And I'm not an expert at keeping them hidden either.

[Raine]

snodderly, my novel was in progress when you made your post. Thanks so much Am I doing too much fixing? I really like HRM and how she handled things. She too would be a really good one to revisit now I'm in such a different place. Thanks snodderly!