BC39.....The fight for my marriage continues

[MrBond]

planet,

"You are talking about general cultural and mentality of my parent's generation or before them."

No. I know many people who live by this.

"They would have never thought of divorcing each other and accept their fate as husband & wife as it is. Good or Bad."

That's also not true. There has always been breakups. And in abusive relationships, it's better for a breakup to occur.

"Times have change. Rules above do not apply anymore. That's the way it is."

Again you're wrong. I know many couples who go through life knowing that they have to stick things out together.

planet, I know you're cynical because of your own situation. But let's fact it. Both you and your W caused problems. She left because you weren't listening. Did you expect her to accept whatever you did or said?

She is an individual as much as yourself.

[lovethehub]

Not sure if we have hijacked BC's thread but I am replying to SM because I think it applies to a lot of situations..

I guess it depends how you view marriage. If you view it as a life long commitment then you dont bail on it. If you understand that marriage has its positives and its negatives you learn to evaluate it differently. If you understand that life has its UPS and downs, you dont quit during a down period, because you know an up period is coming up soon.

And that is why most unhappy couples are happy again within five years.

Yes, M is a 'lifelong commitment'; that commitment doesn't mean 'we are stuck together no matter what', it means 'I love you and I will cherish you and do my best to make you happy and make our marriage work as we go through life together'. Most of us do not have any R skills when we go into M, and older people have the example of our parents who were 'stoic'. We did not see them work to make things better, they accepted what was. Who wants that? Is a person supposed to be unhappy for life because they chose someone who was a completely different person before M? It happens to most, you are one way when dating and different when M, then because there are no R skills, the M deteriorates are until many feel dead inside. That is no life, and no M.

If you treated your W poorly for years, and she repeatedly asked for more from you, where was your commitment to the M? (generalization, not necessarily YOU) Then, she is berated for being "selfish, immature and not sticking by her commitment". Just being there is not honoring your commitment either.

I highly doubt most couples are happy again withing 5 years. If your spouse ignores you, ignores your requests for more (time/affection/sex/whatever), do you think most suddenly begin to give that? Not in my personal experience or in that of most of my friends.

It is the selfish and immature belief system that leads to a sense of entitlement and the mentality that if im not happy I can just leave...

People who go through life like that will never be happy.

It is also selfish and immature to ignore the needs of the person you chose to marry for so long that they feel they have no other option but to leave or have an A.

I was a foreign student 14 years ago when I met my wife. I always told her that as an outsider, I believe that the reason so many Americans are unhappy (high suicide rate, high prescription drug use, etc) is due to 'the pursuit if happiness'.

It is the very idea that is the foundation of American culture that leads peopke to behave in ways that will not bring them happiness. Excess material consumption, disposable marriages, etc are the byproduct of constantly seeking momentary happiness.

I believe this problem is universal, not just in our culture.

This is not what happiness is. Happiness is being contempt with what you have, with being ok with the hand you were dealt and learning to make the most of your life.

If your spouse tries hard and you can see how much they love you, do they have to 'meet your needs',100 percent? Is love and respect and compassion not enough? Not in American culture its not. Hence the general level of unhapiness...

If your S ignore your needs over and over and over, and now that you are ready to walk out the door they suddenly listen to you and 'tries hard', that does not feel authentic and typically isn't. As soon as you stay, most are back to where they were before (lack of R skills). There isn't anyone who can have 100% of their needs met by one person, however, having them repeatedly ignore by the person who committed to loving you and caring for you til death do you part is very damaging. Can it be fixed, sometimes. I do think many, many people give up way to soon. I also find that many did try for years, at least to be heard, and their S didn't care until they walked out - and then they couldn't believe they 'didn't even try'.

For me, personally, h and I survived many rough times; major debt from opening 4 businesses which, one by one we had to close when the malls kept raising the rent leaving us with over $100k in debt and no income; a child with chronic medical needs that requires out of state care and, for almost a year, extremely expensive weekly trips there; bankruptcy from the medical and business costs; and several more major issues. These were not the issues we couldn't survive, ignoring each others basic needs was the issue we couldn't survive. Do not underestimate how important that is.

[SM34]

Yes if you simply will not even try to make your spouse happy then you obviously dont care much.

I have seen people on here who refused to go to therapy with their spouse and blamed all the problems on theirwas. Thats different.

What I was referring to are the situations where the soon to be lbs was trying to make things right. Or showing love in a million ways, just not in the love language of the soon to be was. The was can obviously see their lbs loves them, and works hard for the family, loves the kids, devotes all their free time to their spouse, etc.. Just is missing something...like TELLING their spouse she ia beautiful every day.

So basically someone who is excellent in all ways but one, and there us no question they love their was with all their heart. But the was feels they NEED to be told how beautuful they are. They NEED their 'needs' met at any cost. learning to see the other gestures the spouse uses to shiw love would be considered settling. It is those that I am talking about.

This society is very individualistic, selfish and self cebtered. The pursuit of happiness trumps ALL other purposes in life.

In other cultures the impirtance is on the group or the tribe. Your happines does not go above all others and at the expense of all others. So you are taught to see the bigger picture. You are taught to see when someone means well and even if they miss the mark, they were trying and that's what matters.

You can see this self centeredness of American culture in many every day little things. For example in the language. In English we tell our children that this is 'my ball' or this is 'my food'. We might tell a child to leave that toy alone because it is 'not YOUR toy'. There is great emphasis in what BELONGS to YOU. The word 'I' is greatly overused and bears too much weight in individualistic societies.

In my home culture, the word 'we' or 'our' is used in place.of 'I',or my'. The emphasis is on the fact that the person is not an individual,.but an extension of their extended family or tribe or group. So we say to a child 'leave that toy, it is theirs not ours'. We say 'that is our food' not that is,'my food'.

The sense of 'I' is so detested that their is a saying that goes with it and that saying is said to anyone who utters the word I. Loosely translated, the sane is that I is a form if blasphemy. Another loose translation is,'God forgive you for using the word I'.

There is also another angle to this. In this culture if you have an affair and cheat on your spouse, it brings shame on you only (if that even. Sometimes I wonder if anyone is even ashamed of it). In other cultures, because you are an extension of your family, it brings shame on your entire family! Hence the honor killings etc.. You are not an individual, free to do what you please at the expense of others. That is why divorce is much lower. More importantly, we raise kids that are emotionally stable and have no baggage...

The amount if baggage that is carried around by the average American person us frightening. Their dad was an,alcoholic who beat their.mom, they were sexually abused as children, broken homes, neglected by their parents or raised by their geand parents, witnessed parents who cheated on each other. All if this stems from the self centered mission to pursue happiness. If your happiness is at the expense of others, how can you sleep at night? Easily when you have been raised to put your needs ahead.of everyone else, just like your parents did.


The funnt thing is people look at previous generations and their old school marriages that lasted a life time and then dont see how those people didnt put their own needs at top priority. They were.able to have a life long committed marriage by always seeing it from,the others perspective. And not forgetting that although your spouse is not perfect, they love you and have made a commitment. They are not cheating in you, they are loyal and faith full,.and that is ENOUGH to build a good life together.

My wife holds her grandma and grandpas marriage high,.way way high. And she thinks its a fairytale. They are,married to their 'soul mates' (fag me!). We on the other hand, made a big mistake in getting married. the kids of this fairytale marriage, 9 of them, have 7 divorcees and only 2 successful (so far) marriages. All 7 of those were mistakes? Then in our generation, her family has 3 grandkids who are married (my wife is one) and 2 out of the three are separated heading for divorce. Mistake? All of us failed to marry our soul mates? All of us are not getting our needs met and it must be a bad spouse sekection?

I would say it is the loss of the sense of community. Everyone is only concerned with their own happiness.

[SM34]

Ooops. That's gag me not fag me. Sorry about the typos. Typing on my phone

[MrBond]

"This society is very individualistic, selfish and self centered. The pursuit of happiness trumps ALL other purposes in life. "

I don't know what you keep talking in generalities. You lump everyone together into "society" when not everyone is like that. Personally, I have more happily married friends than single, self-centered ones like you've described.

AND you say that the pursuit of happiness trumps everything else. That's a gross overstatement. Most of what you do is out of necessity - work, education, etc. What matters is how you approach it. Anything can make you happy. Even the lousiest job. But what you find as being lousy, another person will find as being the most joyous thing they've ever done.

IMHO, we need to stop hijacking this thread.

SM34, you should continue this onto your own thread.

[SM34]

I apoligize if what I am doing is considered hijacking. It was were the discussion was heading and I got the impression that even the author of this thread was participating in this topic.

I think I made my point, and many have agreed with me. So ill move on now

[SM34]

PS I disagree that what I said was a gross overstatement. The pursuit of hapiness is the driving force in this culture and is at the heart of the entire theory of 'needs'. Which makes it the very idea that is discussed on every single thread here.

[adinva]

Seriously, if you're making a case in favor of honor killings, PLEASE have it in your thread so people can participate without derailing BC39's thread.

[adinva]

BC39, I too find it so incredibly sad and discouraging how many divorces are happening. Especially now that I'm going through it, against all I had ever thought about myself and my marriage, I have a new sense of the pain experienced by others going through this that I did not understand before. It is very sad.

BC how are things going in your sitch now? What's new? And you mentioned how much better you are now than before, what have you changed and how did you do it?

[MrBond]

" It was were the discussion was heading and I got the impression that even the author of this thread was participating in this topic."

No you took it as an open forum and took it over for your own purpose.

"and many have agreed with me."

Keep it on your thread. I don't see anyone who "agreed" with you.

BC39, I apologize for the hijack. We are interested in your sitch and how things are going.