Newcomer's brief summary

[doubledown]

Hi TT:

Thanks for responding. This is so helpful and motivating when I get these reponses. At this point, it's my only outlet to talk about my situation with everyday people.

I really need to committ to accepting that my W is truely blind in a hormone/chemically induced "fantasy world" right now. It makes good sense, but often, my reality conflicts with that state of mind. Some things I read say it can last a few months, 6 months or up to 4 years! That last one is tough to swallow.

I'm trying to stay committed to the no confrontation(for the immediate future)school of thought. I guess it's just my wishful thinking that by confronting now, she'll snap out of it, but I'm realizing that's highly unlikely at this point.

I really need to get down to some serious and consistent action of GAL and self improvements. You asked if setting goals and working hard and accomplishing them is something I would like as my strong suit or if it was something I thought W wants. It's something my W finds attractive. At the same time, it's not a bad quality to have. But I like your other suggestions: improve on things that were going well when we were happy. What did attract her to me? Overcome some bad habits.

I tend to collect and hold onto alot of crap. Maybe I should begin thinning that out. I know my W hates all the stuff I have taking up space and I don't "need" most of it.

There is a shed I could finish, painting that needs done. I'd also like to kayak the river in our area. W and I used to enjoy that. Haven't done it since the kids came along. Do these sound like a good start?

Thanks TT!

[lovethehub]

I didn't know how long I could go on for so I figured I better submit and continue...

I'm not saying that a man should live with his W knowing she is having an A. But if you decide to confront her, you must be prepared to deal with the consequences, b/c it will push her for a reaction. In extremely few cases have I read about a W falling into the arms of her H and asking for his forgiveness. In most cases, she will tell him she's done with the M.

I agree, do not confront her unless you are prepared for your M to be over. It doesn't mean that will definitely happen but you have to be prepared that it might be. If you confront her & she doesn't end the A, then what? If you start begging her to stay and work on the M, end the A, she will lose all respect for you.

Even in a face to face confrontation, it usually does not take care of the A. When my H confronted me face to face with solid proof that I had been having explecive sexual conversations on line with several OM, I did feel horrible and cried a river of tears. But it did not stop me from having an EA that had everything except physical contact. OM and i had live chat, a camera, and cell phone. That can take you a long way in an EA. i simply found ways to hide it better.

Exactly. I felt horrible to but when I started my A, I felt like I saved myself and I was not willing to give that up.

"It really makes me wonder what, specifically, is missing in her heart, life, wellbeing to be so attracted to another. Without being able to sit down with her and discuss the details and understand exactly how she's feeling how she feels, I don't know what how to fix that."

I doubt she's attracted to him. Here is what i believe happens in most cases where a woman gets into an EA. there is the woman who becomes emotionally vulnerable to any man who could make her feel good. Even though a woman can be very educated and have a position of power, if her emotional needs are unmet for a long time (depending on the individual), she is like a person who is drowning.......she will grab any thing thrown out to keep her alive. All he had to do was be in the right place at the right time and say the right thing, and even if it would NEVER had influence with her in the past.....it did that time. It sent a spark in her. Enought that enticed her for more. He satisfies her emotional needs without any physical contact. Of course, an EA often leads to a PA, but not every time, and can last a long time.

Sandi always gets it right! I knew OM for 2 years prior to our A, and never once even considered him in a romantic/sexual way. One night, he was the last one closing up with me at work and I sat down to have a drink with him (like I did w/anyone who was with me). We talked and laughed for about 2 hours and halfway through I wanted to kiss him. After 2 years of never once looking at him that way. Next time I saw him, I let him know through looks and actions what I was open to and that night our A began.

Also, I don't know if your W did this, but once I knew how close I was, I went to H and told him that I really needed to know how he felt about me, that he had no idea how important it was and he said "I feel like I don't want to talk about this" and he left the house. Without him realizing it, it was a done deal in that moment. Did your W try to talk to you about how she was feeling over the years? Give hints? Get angry about things you would do but you kept doing them?

I am not saying any of this makes an A okay, it is just the reality of how it goes because we are emotional beings and after so long you will reach out to someone else. Just like when you are single and you decide you have been alone long enough, you want to find someone to share your life with. If you are in a M that makes you feel alone, uncared for, unloved and hopeless, eventually the same thing happens.

Regardless, my wife has been through alot over the past four years. I didn't help by complaining she worked too much and we never saw her. I was also very critical of her, judgemental, angry and drank too much. I would always try to solve her problems instead of just listen to them. She didn't want to have sex with me because she didn't like me very much and that caused problems.

What have you done to support her? If my H was drunk and critical, I would want to stay at work too and I definitely would not be interested in sex. Are you working on your drinking? Your anger? You have to be sure you changes are not just on the surface and these seem like deep seated issues. I am glad you are going to see a counselor soon, that should be helpful for you.

Because I have looked at her emails and texts, I know she is planning on leaving when she gets her settlment money from the accident in about 6 months and plans to live with the OM.

I've been DBing and am a delite to live with. I'm very careful but she tells the OM I'm always around and it annoys her. I'm doing 180's and have given her no reason to become upset whatsoever.

I was "planning" on leaving, too. Even after I knew I wasn't leaving, I still told OM I was because I didn't want to lose him until I knew for sure H was sticking around. I loved OM, I would have left except something inside kept telling me not to. It seems, from some of the comments, your W is torn and that can go in your favor at some point.

Yes, you have given her reason to be upset because she is upset at everything you have ever done! She is probably upset you are breathing. Right now she probably finds just about anything you do annoying. I know that doesn't sound promising but it really can blow over.

I feel like nothing I do matters and she hasn't said one thing about all I'm doing ...AND NOT DOING!!!

She is wrapped up in herself right now and doesn't want things to get better so she probably won't say anything. That doesn't mean you should stop and she is noticing, she just isn't talking about it.

I need a new car, ands she said in 6 months when we get the settlement, you can get a car. So, do I risk that issue by jumping the gun? Oh man...this is tough!

When the time comes that you feel the need to address the A, which will happen at some point, I don't think putting it off to get a car will be a wise move.

I know there is an on-going issue between my W and the OM about this girlfriend he lives with. He claims that it's over with her and he's told her to move out, but she can't find a place. My W expresses her hurt for his dishonesty and unwillingness to get rid of her and he claims he's trying. I know this from previous texts I've seen.

See, there is already trouble in paradise!

Anyway, I'm confused about where my focus should be at this stage. Since my W is unaware that I know everything about her affair with OM, should I talk to her about our relationship and how I'm unhappy and want to work on myself because I know alot of our issues are a result of my attitude, behaviors and issues? Or do I strictly focus on DB techniques and simply demonstrate through my actions, 180's and GAL while this affair runs it's course?

Actions speak louder than words. Keep focusing on yourself, growing, GALing, 180's, etc.. Telling her what you are doing will most likely have little, or no, impact on her.

Maybe it will shock her into real life and really make an impact when she's least expecting it. My plan is to reherse my presentation so that I can remain composed and charge neutral without emotion. Letting her know that I am aware of the affair and that she needs to end it immediately and sever all contact with OM permanently or she'll have to leave and there will be a significant cost to leaving. No come and go as she pleases, no taking the kids with her to a house she shares with OM, etc.

What does your coach say now? I do not believe confronting her will make her stay, especially with how much she will be making. Rehearsing a presentation and being able to remain calm are two completely different things. She does not give any indication of warming up to you at this point so it is more likely she will leave. What is the significant cost to her leaving? You will not be able to prevent her from taking the kids to a house she shares with OM, this will be her choice. (A poor one if she makes it but her choice)

Any suggestions? During my first coaching call, My DB coach, Joanne, said that I should start therapy and then tell W that I have been listening to her and reveal that I am getting help because I need to make changes for myself, my kids and my W. My W has been telling me to get help and make improvements over the years, but I was too pround, weak, ashamed.

Do I begin by telling my W about my therapy and that I realize our marriage has been suffering for a long time, but I know I need to work on me for everyone's benefit. That I want to be the husband and father that I know I can be, want to be and that my W and kids deserve?

After you have been to several sessions, and you have been making consistent changes for several months, you can tell her the reason you have been working on yourself is....

Be sure you have a good therapist, the therapist can make or break everything.

Leaving a marriage is one thing, but leaving for another person that you are sexualy involved with while your married and have two small children at home is going to put the pressure on her because she'll have to think about how all the people we know, including family, will react.

Not really. I came close to leaving many times, looked for places to live, etc. and I never once worried about what other people would think. In my mind, I couldn't wait to bring OM around my family and friends.

I'm sure he pursued her.

Why are you sure of this? Does it matter?

How do I attempt to meet her emotional and other needs at this point? Do I just stay upbeat, PMA, GAL and have fun with the kids?

You cannot meet her emotional needs now, she doesn't want you to. You have to focus on yourself. Yes, stay upbeat with a PMA, have fun but you need to GAL. Hire a sitter once a week and go do something. Even if you have lost weight, exercising is still a good idea because it will help you mentally and it is good for your health - and all of this stress isn't. If you eat enough you will be fine working out and maintaining weight.

I realize that I do not know what the future holds, but it's so difficult to think about the past 12 years being chucked aside by W and not valued at all! Our two boys WILL be damaged. My W is selfishly making choices that will affect four people and damage the rest of their lives. The worst part is that 3 of those 4 have no say in the matter. That hurts.

You had a choice for a long time and you squandered it. Nothing infuriated me more than to have my H say I didn't care, it was my fault, I was leaving the family, etc.. when I had tried for years to get him to understand how I felt. Your W may be making the decision now, but you made it over and over. Also, by your own admission, you had very little patience with your boys until a month ago and you were critical and judgmental. That also damages children so do not make the mistake of placing all of this blame on W.

Originally Posted By: doubledown
- consistently agree with her feelings and not question them

that's something you can work on. but don't do it in a wimpy way. validate her feelings, let her know you agree with her when that is true, but avoid criticism when you don't agree. you don't have to pretend to agree if you think she's wrong, but you can say it in a diplomatic way, like "I think differently, but I understand your reasons for feeling that way." (and then don't continue to argue about it.)

Agreed. Do not agree just to agree, that is annoying and women don't like a guy who agrees with every single thing, or says "whatever you want" every time she asks him something. Like TT said, you can disagree without disagreeing.

DD,

I know this is long but your topic grew quickly! Focus on you, grow, grow, grow, And you are right, if nothing else it will make you a better man.

[lovethehub]

Okay, one more thing. I was reading what I posted and it made me think of your counseling. Your counseling should be to address your self-esteem issues, anger, controlling behavior, etc. Your first session and it is already focused on your M and telling your W you know about her A. Focus on you, that includes your counseling for now!

[doubledown]

Hi LTH:

thanks for getting back to me. I really appreciate your time and thoughfulness in providing your feedback and insight.

I'm begining to understand why it may be best to keep my knowledge of the A to myself. I need to take advantage of all the time I have to work on myself in the presence of my W. I realize my work is for me, but allowing her to witness it can't hurt.


"I guarantee she doesn't see her faults right now. She sees that she tried for years to be happy with you and to let you know what she wanted but you didn't listen; you were angry, critical, judgmental and lacked patience. She handled this until she could no longer do so and then she emotionally left your M. THEN (most likely) she began her A because she is already so far gone she no longer thinks it matters because you don't love her and you aren't nice to her and the kids".

Your statement here is tough to take, but I realize it's true. Everyone is different and my W took what she could. I'm glad I am able to still love her and want her as my W and a member of our family.

"AS is right IF you are prepared to stick to those boundaries and have W leave the home, or at the very least have an in house separation, when she does not end the A. I would be shocked if you telling her you are aware of it and setting boundaries makes her end the A. It sure didn't make me end mine, I just hid it better".

I have no idea how my W would respond to a confrontation followed by me setting boundaries. She may pack up and leave and file for divorce! She could also ignore me and file for divorce without my knowldge and end up kicking me out of my own house.

Were you confronted by your H? How did the A come to light? What was your reaction? Were you angry, resentful?


"This is how you see it. She sees that you made repeated choices, year after year, that said you didn't care. That caused a lot of damage, too. Do not make the mistake of thinking that this A is the cause of the most damage in your M, esp if you get to the point where the A ends, she knows you know and you try to work through it. By blaming everything on the A, it says "Yes, I was crappy to you for years but that doesn't matter. Your A however, now that really caused some damage" That was the biggest obstacle to my R with my H, everything focused on the A and not the years of pain, loneliness, anguish, begging for a better M, etc that led up to me getting to the point where an A seemed like the best option".

I realize that I'm the one who wants to save this marriage and that I need to focus on her pain and what, specifically, drove her into an A. I get that. If/when there is a confrontation, I want to start with just that. Acknowledge her suffering, pain, loneliness and frustration of not getting what she needed.

You mentioned you knew you would come back. From what I've seen in text/email, it looks like she wants out, but I haven't seen the word "divorce" spoken. I'm hoping she's so fogged out of her mind that she is lost in space right now and won't make any permenant moves.

"No, the OM is, in her eyes, a caring man who listens to her and makes her feel good about herself, attractive, worthy. Logically I knew that things would never work with OM and I because he drank too much for me, however, that didn't matter one bit at the time, not in my heart. I wanted to throw away my family and be with him. I felt happy for the first time in years and when you are in A, it's not reality so it doesn't matter if he has diploma, is overweight, whatever; he makes her feel happy and loved again".

You were so lost in the OM during your A, you said that you wanted to throw away your family and be with him. I'm curious, from a WAW perspective, were you able to detach from your kids? How did that facilitate itself? Is it common for a WAW to disregard her children during this foggy time? Did you ever move out of your houase to be with OM?

I'll look forwrad to your responses when you have time. Thanks again for your willingness to share your experience with me. It truely helps.

[doubledown]

LTH:

thanks again for investing so much into my situation! I truely apprecaite that. I was thrilled when I saw your additional responses! It really helps keep my spirits up.

You make some good points here and I'm going to have to have faith that my wife will eventually come out of this fog and see what is before her. A man who loves his family, accepts responsibility and accountability for his mistakes of the past and who is committed to rebuilding a new marriage. Becuase to be honest, I didn't like the one we had either. It takes two, I only hope that she is willing to invest herself again at some point. You are an inspiration.

You're right about the therapy, we did discuss my marriage and didn't focus on the purpose of the visit. This was the intake/initial visit, so I'll look to address my anger and esteem and drinking issues on 9/4, my next visit.

I have my second DB coaching call tomorrow with Joanne. I have a lot to talk to her about and from my understanding, she's supposed to be pretty good at this, so I'm looking forward to it.

Right now, my focus will be to keep the OM and the A out of mind and concentrate on me and making me better.

Should you have any other thoughts, please don't hesitate to chime in. I really appreciate your willingness to share your story and help another!

Thanks.

[doubledown]

I wanted to share something that I think is very significant to my relatively new situation. I first posted that I found out my W was in a PA on 7/24/13. She still has no idea I am aware of any of this!

Last night, as she was scanning through her phone, she asked me: "what do you think about me going to a jewelry party on Saturday night"?

My first thought was disappointment, becauase this is the Labor Day weekend holiday and I thought we would be able to spend it together as a family. I also knew it would be a another ruse to see OM over the weekend. Since my W started her new job on 8/26/13, she hasn't been able to see as much of OM as she worked with him at her previous job.

So, I was silent. She said: "so, you don't have any thoughts on it"? I replied: "well, for two years you've worked every weekend and now you don't have to work weekends with your new job and I thought that meant we would all get to spend more time with each other, especially on the weekends".

I listed the activities we had discussed and she said we can still do that stuff. I would just go out afterward.

I was bothered, but realized I better back off. So, I said ok. that's cool. I could tell she was bothered and she remained pretty silent for the rest of the evening. After I put my son to bed and came back downstairs, she told me that she had forgotten her Dad's 75th birthday on Monday and she just read an email from her Mother reminding her of it. Of course, it was in a very passive, aggressive manner from her Mother. She and her Mother have had a very temultuous relationship since my W was a girl.

So, we went to our bedroom to get ready for bed and I could tell she was very preoccupied and bothered. I changed the subject and asked her if she could be home right after work the next day to get the kids from the sitter, so I could go to the bank. She said, well I can go to the bank for you, that way she didn't need to rush home. I was very bothered by that, because I knew she just wanted to see OM after work and this would interfere with her plan. Of course, I was trying to prevent her from seeing hom by asking her to be home soon after work.

I know she felt extremely guilty about forhetting her Dad's birthday and really bothered by her Mom's email.

I attempted to empathize with her about the situation and as I was talking she rolled over and turned out the light. I found that very rude, so I stopped talking abruptly. She said, "yeh, you were saying"? That bothered me, so I just said "I can tell you're bothered so, I'll leave you alone".

She responded with "well, I am bothered. It seems like you just don't want me going anywhere after work. You want me home. And you don't want me to go out on Saturday, you want me home. It's my first week at my new job and you expect me to be home immediately after work everyday".

Well, the week she was off before she started her new job, all she did was run around and see OM. She went shopping with him to get her new outfits for work, they had lunch, she would go to his job site and bring him snacks and drinks.

She also made it a point to shop for all the kids school supplies, clothes, etc. during her week off. So, I knew she was looking for flexibility after work to continue this and didn't like being cornered with my requests or observations.

She was right. I do want her home. Who wouldn't want to prevent as many encounters as possible with OM? So, I apologized and said: "you're right. It is only your first week and you need time to adjust. I want to support you in your new job and getting acclimated. I'm sorry about that. I'll back off".

Now here's the significant part:

[doubledown]

My W and I were talking last night. She wants to go out to a jewelry party Saturday night. I was not ok with it, because, it's a ploy to get out to see OM.

When I showed my disapointment, she asked what the problem was and I mentioned that she's always gone. She has been working 7/day sweek for 6 months and we never see her. Now that she started her new job this week, 8:00-5:00 Mon-Fri, her time with OM is reduced!

I said you're always gone. You're either at work or running errands after work (seeing OM).

She said you want me home all the time. If I was home at 6:00, you'd want me home at 5:30!

I asked her to be home tonight by 5:30 so I could run to the bank after work. She said she can go to the bank for me during the day. She only said that so she can see OM after work and claim she worked a litte late.

I said I 'm available to help with errands and such.

That's when she said: "You've been this Father of the Year and Husband of the Year for the past several months and I don't know what to do with that or what to make of that person"!

Good sign? That's the first time she's mentioned anything about my behavior since I started DBing on 7/5/13!!

Then she said: "if you're going to say you've been available or willing to help out with this kind of stuff over the past sevral years, that's just a false statement"!

I said I can see how you feel that way. You're right about that. But I'm going to keep doing my best and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Then we went to sleep.

What do you think? What's my next move? Keep on with status quo? Start talking? What should I do vets?

Please provide some insight here. I think there's a crack in the armor!!!

[doubledown]

Wife finally mentioned that she sees big changes in me with the kids and toward her. She said she sees my "Father of the Year" and "Husband of the Year" efforts.

I'm trying to just continue with my DBing and 180's. Hopefully, she'll be attracted to it at some point. For now she's still focused on OM.

Actually out on a date with him right now! It's hard to take, but I've gotta let her do what she wants right now. Right?

Any feedback is appreciated. Suggestions?

[too trusting]

DD, you can't prevent her from seeing OM by demanding that she come home directly from work and/or not go anywhere on weekends. first of all she will still find ways to do it; and the result of your demands will be just to make her feel "trapped" by marriage, while going out with OM is a fun fantasy with no responsibilities.

instead I suggest:

1) you can't demand that she come home directly from work every day, but it's reasonable to request that she be home by a reasonable hour. (maybe 7-8 pm, something like that. maybe in time to have dinner together as a family; or to be home when the two of you put the kids to bed after you've given them dinner, and then you and W have a quiet dinner together.)

and her time at home should be pleasant so she will want to do it more. similarly with weekend time.

2) also if you do things as a family, they should be fun things and not tiring. like suppose you and W take the kids to the zoo and after 1-2 hrs she is starting to get tired, that's a time to suggest going home (or to a fun restaurant) for lunch. if the kids don't want to leave, you can emphasize the fun-ness of the next activity, and suggest that you can re-visit the zoo again in a month or two.

3) the "date night" suggestion from earlier; try to have fun evenings together once a week or at least once every two weeks. the purpose is not to keep her away from OM (because if that is the only purpose then you've already lost) but because you're a fun guy to be with!

remember... flies... honey... no vinegar...

[lovethehub]

Were you confronted by your H? How did the A come to light? What was your reaction? Were you angry, resentful?

H found out about a month after it started. I told him we were just texting and that it was an EA, which of course was a big lie. We started counseling, I kept up the A and hid it better.

Then a few months later I ended it and wanted things to work in my M. However, H overheard me talking to a friend about it and he confronted me. I came clean about everything and really wanted our M to work, wanted to go to counseling,etc. However, when counseling focused over and over on my A, when h continued to feel that everything he did was justified and nothing I did was (it had always been that way), when he kept making angry remarks about the A, when it felt like every single thing was turned back around on me, when H kept saying he wanted a divorce, I decided things would never change and I started texting OM again. We never really had a full blown A again after the first few months but the first 6 months of R, I would repeatedly reach out to him through texts when things were going bad. Of course they were, I had a foot in each R.

You mentioned you knew you would come back. From what I've seen in text/email, it looks like she wants out, but I haven't seen the word "divorce" spoken. I'm hoping she's so fogged out of her mind that she is lost in space right now and won't make any permenant moves.

I don't know what your wife really wants, however, I do know that in text/email it looked like I wanted out, too. A big part of me did want out but deep inside I always felt that I would really regret it if I left. I just didn't want to give up all contact with OM because I was afraid H and I would never be better or happy.

You were so lost in the OM during your A, you said that you wanted to throw away your family and be with him. I'm curious, from a WAW perspective, were you able to detach from your kids? How did that facilitate itself? Is it common for a WAW to disregard her children during this foggy time? Did you ever move out of your houase to be with OM?

I never wanted to leave my children and I did not detach from them at all; I never wanted them to have their family split and that held me back, too, esp since D already has a father somewhere else. When I say I wanted to throw my family away, that was how I felt on the surface of my emotions, being all wrapped up in the excitement of a new R and thinking H and I couldn't repair our M, deep down I couldn't go. However, in the beginning, it was the kids that kept me from going anywhere - with a very tiny, tiny sliver of hope that my M could somehow improve. I never moved out, a lot of friends advised me to but I felt that once I left, that was it.

Right now, my focus will be to keep the OM and the A out of mind and concentrate on me and making me better.

Good plan

That's when she said: "You've been this Father of the Year and Husband of the Year for the past several months and I don't know what to do with that or what to make of that person"!

Keep doing what you are doing