NEW LIFE / NEW ME

[hotwheelsaust]

F

[hotwheelsaust]

Sorry accidentally hit "enter". F, just checking up on you. Seeing how everything is going?
Some of us males do make it hard for ourselves, by wanting answers to all our questions. Right or wrong, it is only because we want to do the best in this horrible situation we find ourselves in. We don't want to blow the only chance we might have by saying or doing the wrong thing/s.

[Fartiltre]

HWA, Sandi, T & LTH

Thanks for all your advice and caring! I needed some time for me and that’s why I haven’t answered.
I need time to process all of this and writing about it in here doesn’t seem to get me any closer! I read and understand all your words but converting them into real life is hard on me! I want to do well and I fear making mistakes so much that it will drive me towards insanity if I don’t get hold of me!

I have been feeling good since starting LRT but today I am home alone and my brain is going in all directions. I feel sad, then I feel good, I feel hopeless and 2 min. later I believe she will come back. My feelings are all over me and I guess that’s why I am looking for rules. I want something firm to hold on to during this and I have been searching desperately for this in here, with coach, in books, at shrink and everywhere.
I need to realize that firm doesn’t exits and that I will have to go with my own beliefs adjusted towards the advice of friendly neighbor. I need to understand this concept fully and from thereon trust my feelings and my beliefs.

T, I believe to some extend that you might be right about me being black/white and that this is also one of the reason for me finding myself here. I want to do the things, that gives me the best odds for R in the future and as I see it, this means going with Sandis, LTHs and your advice. I try to follow the advice strictly as a new set of rules but I guess I am realizing now it is not rules and when Sandi tell me not to go into Ws house she is really saying “Don’t go into W house if not for children’s sake. When I am told “Not to help W with a light bulb” It means “Don’t help W with a light bulb unless you would have done the same for a complete stranger”
That’s what I have to measure my future actions against as I see it now! So rules goes to the dumpster and in comes these principles that have to sink in and become a part of me!

I need to work through this my own way but based on the advice (that I now see as guidelines) given to me.

Don't make a call to her so you can chit-chat. But something may require you to have to call. Do you tell yourself you can't just b/c Sandi said no calls?

Yes, I did! When you say no calls and let her calls go to VM then I don’t call and I get a VM! To me don’t is don’t! Black and white! You do or do not! So reading your post once again I still read the same “don’t call” but I now get that while these were the words, the intention of them was another – It was to make me pull back! But when you initially told me what to do I told you that I would follow through! When I state a thing like that I do my best to make it happen!
That’s why I have been confused: Advice is to do or not to do but the guidelines (friendly neighbor) is otherwise. The guidelines and these hard suggestions didn’t match up in my head. I will from hereon go with the guidelines and then if needed make rules on my own to keep me on the path.

But when you know the main purpose, the goal, your boundaries, and apply your good judgement (or common sense) to the situation at hand.....then you won't appear to be so ridgid.
T can tell you, F, learning how to balance and learning good timing is everything!

Although I am not sure how to understand the balance and good timing – this is what I will do!

I want to be happy, I want my family back and I won’t take any abuse.
I want to be the best farther and a nice and pleasant human being.


Now, about the blaming part:
I don’t believe Sandi told me to put the blame on W anymore – I believe I misread, misinterpreted or something her words and that were why I kept on asking about it - without doing it! I do blame W (internally) for the way she made this happen – that I am guilty off but I also blame myself. At first I felt all the responsibility for BD was mine but I was advised to adjust this and so I have.
I see why she did it, I see my own stupid actions, I see a lot, but as many LBH I do not see the reasonable part of BD without talking first. I know she properly feels that we have talked, that she have tried and so on but that is her POV and not mine. I believe LTH, Labug, Adinva and more 2x4 me months ago about this taking responsibility in front of the children. You all did well and managed to get a new POV through my thick and sometimes unreasonable skull. This still sticks with me!
I don’t feel anger towards W, I don’t feel she is entirely responsible, I feel this is 50%++ my fault. I would like for her to take her part, but that’s up to her and not to me! Sometimes I just feel like grabbing her and giving her a good shake to wake her up, but I understand that this can’t be done. I feel like reasoning with her, talking with her and so on but also know from advice and costly experience that this won’t get me anywhere.
I have thought about the words of LTH and still am – could I just be kidding myself and subconsciously feel otherwise??? I simply don’t know!

LTH, I hope you understand me! Thanks for the 2x4 about responsibility! I do not agree fully but I know what you mean and simply knowing that demands for me to get into this one level deeper.


I still don’t get the difference between pointing things at her decision and blaming! This could be due to my foreign interpretation of the words, me seeing black/white or simply because I don’t get it…but I do feel responsible!

When I saw your examples of how you could answer some of her questions, that is when it hit me that you thought I was instructing you in how to talk to her hatefully. That would be hurting yourself. Instead, you want to say things and do things for her to get this message that this is the results of your decision to break up the family.

A sentence like this confused me and still does!
I wouldn’t use the word hatefully but you are right! I thought you told me to put the blame on her and I didn’t get it – that’s another reason for confusion.
I get that you want me to be nice but also to let her know that all of this is a result of her decision. Last part will be hard so I have turned it around. These sentences that I have written have to go! Instead I am working on a list of words not to use. Responsibility, fault and guilt are good examples – these has to go if W ever addresses this friendship matter again.


This is solid advice:

One more thing, then I have to stop tonight. If she comes to your house and asks if she can go in, my advice is to say, "sure". The reason is b/c your house was where she,shared part of her life with you. When she steps in that house, she has memories of those times. Hopefully, they will trigger positive emotions in her heart.

This is action-oriented, it is explained so I know the why and it follows the friendly neighbor.

F, you are doing great, but I would think sandi is going to come back and tell you, you are putting too much thought into everything. Relax, we don't always say the right things at the right times. Just remember to change your focus: you are co-parenting, not friends.

HWA – I don’t feel I am doing great at the moment but I will try to let your words convince me otherwise! And you are so right in stating that I should relax and simply just co-parent – I am having the hardest time relaxing and only co-parenting!


Thanks!

F

[Fartiltre]

I texted W this morning at 8.45AM and asked if she could set up the girls for a skype-session. Not answer but she logged onto skype 4 hours later and immediately called.

The girls weren’t up to anything. They were busy doing all kinds of stuff and didn’t feel like talking….that hurt me! Not that I don’t get them but I would just have loved to see and hear them.

W looked as always – she told me that D6 was going to a friend and then asked how I am. I told her “I am fine but a little tired after yesterday” Then she asked what I did yesterday and I told her in one short sentence.

Well that’s it – I will talk to her at some point about this Skype and get it scheduled.

I miss my girls!

[lovethehub]

F,

Good to see you, I thought you were going dark on us. (Just kidding!)

You really are doing great, hang in there.

I only have one thing to say about pointing out and blaming. I often say to my children "it's not what you say, it's how you say it". Think of it that way. If you said to W "no we can't be friends and it's your fault because you left", what would the reaction be? It definitely wouldn't be good! However, if you say "W, I want to be friendly for the girls, however, I can't hang out like friends. I am sorry, you chose to move on and I need to do the same", it still points out her decision but without the blame.

[Fartiltre]

LTH

Thanks for all your kind words and advice!

Good to see you, I thought you were going dark on us. (Just kidding!)

LOL
I have been thinking and GALing – both to extremes
I am not going dark on anyone ever again without telling them in advance! I believe this is some kind of what I did to W prior to BD!

You really are doing great, hang in there.

HWA told me so as well – I am having a hard time believing it

I only have one thing to say about pointing out and blaming. I often say to my children "it's not what you say, it's how you say it". Think of it that way. If you said to W "no we can't be friends and it's your fault because you left", what would the reaction be? It definitely wouldn't be good! However, if you say "W, I want to be friendly for the girls, however, I can't hang out like friends. I am sorry, you chose to move on and I need to do the same", it still points out her decision but without the blame.

This I do get! I really understand it and believe I could write a thesis about it right now! It actually is doing it that’s causing all the problems in my head!

I have to small questions:

As I recall, Sandi told me not to do Christmas, children’s birthday or anything and I do believe she meant this. What’s your opinion on this one? I wouldn’t do that with a neighbor but I would for the children. I am thinking about me,W and children in a short get-to-gether on these occasions, but I don’t know!

Was is you writing about how your happy posting on FB tricked something in your H. I did post 2 things on FB yesterday and got a lot of likes and comments. I have never done this before but I am thinking about being more active on FB but this seems to go opposite of all I read in here.


F

[sandi2]

The girls weren’t up to anything. They were busy doing all kinds of stuff and didn’t feel like talking….that hurt me! Not that I don’t get them but I would just have loved to see and hear them.

My experience with children was to find them most anxious to talk when they came in from school. They want to share what happened throughout their day. Sometimes I had to prompt them by leading with questions that required more than a "yes" or "no" answer.

When you interrupt them out of something they are enjoying at that moment, they may not want to leave that action in order to have a conversation. That is just how little ones are.

That is a small example of the "timing" I mentioned. We don't always hit the right timing in things, but we can learn what wasn't the best time for certain activities, conversations, approaches of certain subject matters, etc. , and try to choose a better time for better results.

F, I feel somewhat responsible for your depression and confusion. For my own sainty, i can't take responsibility for anyone's R success or failures. I know there is always a risk when one is trying to advise another one, and the risk is greater when they are strangers......and even greater still, when there is a difference in language. Hence, my telling you to always ask questions to clarify anything you don't understand. And as far as I can tell, you were doing so.

You are correct, I was trying to get you to detach from the pattern of behaviors you were accustomed to doing in this R with your W. You were asking very detailed questions that would have taken weeks to answer all the scenarios of daily interactions. I should have gone more slowly instead of trying to give you a wider scope of the plan. As I told you before, I assumed you were getting the general idea of what i was trying to teach you about entering a new phase of action. Obviously, I was wrong.

Perhaps I threw too much at you at once, or maybe you were going off into all the "what if she says this or does that" sceneros that was too much to handle in written out conversations. You will always have a connection with this woman for the rest of your life. There is no way on earth any of us can give you a book of "rules" to use for every thing that is going to happen between the two of you till death parts you. Now, do see how "extreme" I sound? You may be thinking, "Sandi, come on now, I didn't mean I had to have a book of rules for every scenerio!". Well, that is how it sounds when you come back and say that I told you no more calls and do not enter W's house. You make it sound that you could NEVER, under any circumstances go beyond the doorway of her house. As if it had the plague! You said no calls meant just that.....no more calls . Really? You didn't know that I was giving a guide as how you are to handle getting away from her R hold? You don't know anything that would tell you instinctively that you needed to make an exception?
F, it is a GUIDELINE, not the Bible. Life is too full of unexpected situations for you to be so rigid. There will be exceptions, this is a fact of life we all have to deal with. My mistake was assuming you knew.

I try to speak plainly b/c most LBH's want to use their kids as a crutch to keep contacting the WAW. He will cling to the excuse he had to check to seeif his kids were okay. So, when you told us that you and W trusted each other with the welfare of the children, I was relieved. I thought we would really get somewhere on this road, since you would not be the type to find excuses to keep from detaching from W. It also caused me to believe you would be one who knew the difference between what was an ecxuse (or crutch) from what was of true exception.

I have tried to give you guidelines for detaching. I have tried to give you guidelines in how to conduct yourself.... with the intent of having her to face losing you and the relationship it offered. The plan was that as result of your interactions (or lack thereof), she would see that she can't have it both ways. She can't enjoy family b/c she tore it apart. She can't enjoy hanging out with you and chit-chatting about her life b/c she left you. She would finally see that she lost of it due to her decision to leave you and break up the family. This was her choice. She hears that message in the lack of availability she sees in you. She hears that message in you lack of interest in her. She hears that message in the answers you give her when she asks why. She will know that this has all come about as a result of her decisions. This is what,she wanted? That question is what she will begin to doubt in herself. All b/c she sees what she has lost. That, the loss, is the result.

The intent is not for you to set about being her punisher. She will punish herself. Her guilt, the loss will punish her. Her seeing the result of her own decisions is what punishers her. Do you understand that point? She will see and hear that message loud and clear in everything.

The plan was so she would miss you and want to regain what she lost. You have made it so complicated for yourself, till you are further confused about what to do. I feel badly about it, but I don't know how to be much more clearer (but I will try to clarify any statements as best as I can). As with many LBH's, you want a visible line drawn, or scales to show how to balance things so not to get extreme. But you must rely on personal boundaries, common sense, and your own good judgement.

[Fartiltre]

Sandi,

First and most important – don’t feel bad, sad or anything negative and don't feel responsible! You have advised me and I have read and implemented. I am the do’er and I make the decisions – we just misinterpreted each other and I get why you stated things this way. I have read some LBHs sitches in here and I do get you!

It took some well-meant harsh words, a lot of thought and some good GAL – then I got it!

I don’t see any harm done! I haven’t been unpleasant with W or done anything punitive as I see it.

As with many LBH's, you want a visible line drawn, or scales to show how to balance things so not to get extreme. But you must rely on personal boundaries, common sense, and your own good judgement.

I was looking for this line simply because I believed that you were trying to show. Now I understand that you stated what you did to be sure that I really pulled back. I have pulled back and perhaps 10% to much but that was only for a few days. I believe I am on track now following the guidelines.

The plan was so she would miss you and want to regain what she lost. You have made it so complicated for yourself, till you are further confused about what to do. I feel badly about it, but I don't know how to be much more clearer (but I will try to clarify any statements as best as I can).

I understand the plan and I don’t like that your sentence is in past time – isn’t this the plan for the months to come?
You are clear as glass right now! Do you believe any of my actions the last two weeks have complicated my sit (or is it just my brain you are writing about)?

You said no calls meant just that.....no more calls . Really? You didn't know that I was giving a guide as how you are to handle getting away from her R hold? You don't know anything that would tell you instinctively that you needed to make an exception?

Yes, really! When you told me not to answer her calls – I stopped
Don’t answer her texts – I stopped
Don’t call – I stopped
….and so on! Perhaps I am not average but that’s what I did and I will try to explain why!

This got me confused because I found myself in a situation where I believed that the right thing to do was to answer. Problem is that if I had gone with my feelings and my belief from day one I would still be pleading. This is not about what I believe and to put it in your own words: It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

Try to look back: LBH don’t know what works – if we go with our own sense, our own feelings and our own beliefs we would simply cry, plead and beg for a year. I know I am in a different place now but I still don’t or didn’t trust my own judgment until I woke up today! Why should I? DBing is counterintuitive and you can multiply this several times to get the LBH point of view. We want to cry, talk, plead, understand and so on – all the things we shouldn’t do. That’s why I took your words so literally! I (and properly a lot of other LBH) shouldn’t or couldn’t trust our own judgment. That’s why I look for rules – those I can follow. Guidelines demands a judgment every time.
Do you get me?

If we do continue this I will gladly open my brain totally for you if you would like this. I know that you understand LBH action but perhaps I can give you a little more insight on the reasons and the thoughts – why so many of us fall through.

"Sandi, come on now, I didn't mean I had to have a book of rules for every scenerio!". Well, that is how it sounds when you come back and say that I told you no more calls and do not enter W's house.

Sandi, I am not blaming you for anything – I am trying to explain why I got this impression! I can see how it sounded and I can see my posting going totally off the track that was intended. That’s simply due to the fact that I didn’t get anything as I hopefully has explained in the above.



I still want to do this your way, I want to follow your advice and implement your thoughts in my life and sitch – nothing has changed except now I got the picture.

I hope so much that you will keep helping me on my road, that you will give me guidelines when something happen and help me make the right choices.

Sandi, thank you so much! I do hope the above make sense!

F

[sandi2]

I don’t see any harm done! I haven’t been unpleasant with W or done anything punitive as I see it.

That's good.

Now I understand that you stated what you did to be sure that I really pulled back.

Yes, I was really trying to get you to pull way back, b/c you had not detached since you first arrived on the board. I believe a lot of confusion started that day you told us your W had tried to make contact several times and you would not take her call. Then somebody mentioned that it might be something extremely important (like one of the kids got hurt, for example). Then I wanted you to understand that whenever you co-parent, you have to make allowances for emergencies.....and one thing kind of lead to another. I think the best thing to do (if you feel that you do get it now), is to proceed with the plan.

Even though you are having to implement some tough decisions, you still hope that one day she will want to come back home to you. That is why you can't be a jerk. I hope you know how to be strong and yet charming, b/c that is what you will need to do. Anyone can act like a jerk, but she won't want to return to a R with a jerk.

I understand the plan and I don’t like that your sentence is in past time – isn’t this the plan for the months to come?

It is the plan for months to come. But please do not get off into worrying over things that are a ways off. This is something that is not set in stone. It will be tweaked according to how things are going at that time.

Do you believe any of my actions the last two weeks have complicated my sit (or is it just my brain you are writing about)?

Ha, mostly your brain. No, I believe we got it straighten out before the R became more complicated.

This got me confused because I found myself in a situation where I believed that the right thing to do was to answer. Problem is that if I had gone with my feelings and my belief from day one I would still be pleading. This is not about what I believe

It is often hard to separate our emotions and act according to what somebody else says works. The WAS is in a state of hurt and confusion when they come here, and it takes time for them to get to a place they are able to just "hear" what others are saying.

I know I am in a different place now but I still don’t or didn’t trust my own judgment until I woke up today!

Well, I'm glad you feel like you can trust your judgement. You have to be able to make some judgement calls when it comes to the people we love. Those are your kids and she's their mother and that's not going to change. We want to help you get to a better place. But always remember this F, (and it goes for me or anyone here giving advice), you make the final decision. If it seems absolutely wrong, then that may be your common sense telling you that you know better than we do b/c you know your W and the situation better . For example, when you explained that defriending her on FB could be seen as cultural offensive, and I immediately told you to not do it if that was the case. You did not have to explain anything else to me. That was one of those good common senses kicking in your gut.

I hope I can help. That's why I'm here.

[steveh27]

Anyone can act like a jerk, but she won't want to return to a R with a jerk.

Hi F - not to hijack your thread. I have followed your situation since I joined and I always respected your effort that you put into it. This above statement is something that I struggle with for personal reasons. You however seem to have a good handle on implementing a strategy once you understand what others are trying to say. I on the other hand need the whack across the head for it to sink in, not because I don't know what is best, it's because the situation gets the best of me and my emotions still fail me.

Sandi has always been helpful and seems to have a great perspective on the WAS. She has helped me in the past, but I was/still not smart enough to fully understand everything she has to offer. Half of what she says, and she admits to this, is we are not ready to hear her early on. Just like it's an evolution for the WAS and their journey, it is for us it seems to have a parallel journey that hopefully will converge someday. The WAS is said to be in their fog, and it certainly is true for me as well being the LBS.

Stay strong and live your life healthy. I will be trying as well as it seems my situation is slowly following your path.