NEW LIFE / NEW ME

[Fartiltre]

I am still working me and my new path and would really like some opinions on this. I know you can’t judge my boundaries and values since those are mine, but you can judge and add to the rules. (Defining boundaries and values have been extremely difficult to me – I thought I was quite clear on those but putting them on paper is tough…I would recommend that everybody try doing this.)
At the same time you can hopefully tell me if this makes any sense, if I am missing something, need to add something, got something wrong….anything!
ANY THOUGHTS?


(Nothing is prioritized or finished - properly and hopefully it never will be)

BOUNDARIES
I won’t take the blame for the decision to D in front of anybody.
I won’t be met with untruthful stories about our M and BD from anybody.
I won’t pay anything but the child support unless commanded by the law
I won’t accept W (and others) not behaving and speaking nicely to me
I won’t do anything that I believe will hurt my children – them seen as a total.


VALUES
HONESTY, TRUTHFULNESS AND CONFIDENTIALITY
I want my life lived truthful so I won’t accept people lying to me and I won’t lie to them
I will let things be untold or state that I won’t talk about certain issues rather than lie to people
People can confide with me and trust me to keep their secrets. This goes for children as well.
If I experience confidentiality broken I won’t trust in people again.

AMBITION AND DEVELOPMENT
I will be ambitious on behalf of every aspect of my own and my children’s life.
I wan’t us all to develop daily.
I want to learn and I want to change myself according to my new gained knowledge and experience.
I will to some extent look at the rest of my life as a project and apply the tools I use at work when I do project management.
I will change me for me and my children. We solely judge the present me but I will take advice and words from others into consideration when I judge myself.

HAPPINESS, JOY AND LOVE
I want happy people and close friends in my life. I want to laugh, enjoy and live a good life full. I will try to leave places or situations, that makes me unhappy and I will seek up situations that gives me the opposite feeling.
I want love in my life and I will judge the people around me. If I feel myself being indifferent towards them or the other way around I will either address this or simply get them out of my life.
I will work my financials so I can afford doing the things I want to do and life I want to live.


RULES TO FOLLOW
CHILDREN:
When I have the children at weekends I will do at least one special thing outside the house with them

I will do anything for my children as long as the hurt this afflicts on the others is not too big. I am the only one that I trust in measuring this but I will listen to advice from W and other people.

I will help the children making her a birthday present, but I won’t spend money. This is for the children and not for W.

I will show them love, caring and protection every time I see them.

WIFE:
I won’t help her finding happiness by helping her out or giving her advice - out of what I would have done for a stranger.

I won't hurt her intentionally in anyway that I can't justify as me trying to save M or do good for me or children.

I won’t share my life with her but I will share the children’s life with her by giving her information when special occasion occurs. I will initiate this.

I will be kind, pleasant and a little upbeat at all times.

I will do short breakfast on birthdays and short meet up at Christmas but only with her and Children.

I will enter her house but I won’t seat myself in her house or garden unless birthday, Christmas or if she at some point initiates R-talk.

I don’t initiate contact unless special occasion or urgent matters for kids.

I won’t offer her coffee, a seat or anything but a glass of water if she asks when she is at my house.

I won’t tell her what is going on in my life and if she asks directly I will answer shortly without any details.

I won’t initiate hugs or touching

AROUND OTHER PEOPLE
I will (if asked) tell people that she chose to leave me and that in order for me to get a hold of my life, I can’t have her in it as a friend, but that I cherish her motherhood and caring for the children.


ME:
I will keep the focus on me and the children and leave W being her.
I will GAL my a$$ off
I will keep working and evaluating my 180s

Every time I feel myself thinking that it would be nice to have W around I will look at the reason why I was thinking it right in that moment. Then I will take the measures to avoid this happening again. I will detach totally this way.

I won’t fear W getting mad at me so if needed I will state my opinion without any regards to how W looks at things.

I won’t read anything into her being nice and pleasant – this is just her matching me being nice and one of her ways to get things her way.

I will try to let go of my feeling of guilt towards the children and I won’t let W use this to put pressure on me.

If W at some point asks me something I won’t answer until I am sure that my answer is one that doesn’t regard my wish for R

I won’t decline an invitation from mutual friends just because W will be there.

I will adjust this document and thereby me as my life progresses and accordingly to new knowledge, advice or experience.


EXPECTED QUESTION/COMMENTS FROM W:
(If more the one ME: these are different possibilities and not to be stated at the same occasion.)

W:The children are hurting, please……
ME: It must be very difficult dealing with the children's sadness, but W, you surely thought about all this when you were making the decision to leave the M.

W: Why don’t you want to be friends?
ME: This is a result of your choices. I always wanted a R with you but that you chose to leave the R and along with you leaving came a different R for us. I will continue to co-parent, be the best father possible and I will be friendly towards you but I can’t be your friend.

W: Why don’t you want to do things as a family? / You are hurting the children when you don’t want to do things together with me
ME: Since you chose to break up the family the children have been hurting. They will hopefully get better in time and I won’t pull them through this again when OM or OW comes into the picture. I will help the children to the best of my abilities and therefore I will also try to protect them from further hurt.
ME: W, I am just trying to protect the children from further hurt. You chose to break up the family and I won’t be responsible for pulling the children through this process once again when one of us gets hooked up again.

W: Why don’t you answer my calls and texts?
ME: If I am not busy I do answer them – if you have something very important about the children then send me a text and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

W: Why haven’t you told me this before? / Why have you been so nice when we lived together?
ME: Things were different when we lived together after you made the decision to leave our M. You pretended and so did I – I felt I had to keep things light and pleasant for the children’s sake – they will always be my first priority.

W: Come on in and have a cup of coffee
ME: Thanks, but I have to meet somebody soon so I have to run

W: Can I come in?
ME: Nope, we/I do not have the time right now.
ME: Yes, but you have to leave quickly – I/we have plans and I don’t want to be delayed.



I will keep on working this and thereby me.

F

[sandi2]

I am getting there but still somewhat confused about this blame-assigning I asked you – should I do this?

First off, do not assign blame to her, if that is what you meant. The point in what I have told you was not to guilt her, nor to punish her. You aren't playing a blame game. She will NEVER go back to you if you do that. If I gave you that impression, I apologize b/c I never intend to give out that advice.

Let me tell you what the point is. It is to stop her from eating cake and trying to have family times and you as her BFF without the MR. I have tried to direct you in what to do to make a sharp turn from the path you were on. However, don't want you to jump across and miss the entire road!(joke)

Do not go to extremes on all of this. It is so hard to get something though you men's thick skull, and about the time I think one of you are getting the picture.....then I find you guys being too harsh, or too cold, or whatever. . Seriously, I think you do very well to understand my English slang.

Let me try this again. You don't make up excuses about not attending her invitations. Lovethehub gave you excellent examples, btw, of what to say to her. You don't make up stuff by saying you don't "feel like it". But, You don't say something to intentionally make her feel guilty. You don't try to be mean or nasty in your statements to her. (Remember, you conduct yourself in a friend--ly manner.). You talk politely,if at all possible. If she complains about not having family occasions, or you not accepting invitations, or how sad the girls are, or any of that old stuff.....you give her an answer that directs the attention of the fact she chose to leave. You can say that without being hateful about it. And as LTH said, you can tell her you need to move forward.


You do not allow her to pull the "friendship card" whenever she decides she wants to share time with you. You do not act as though you are a married couple (like it is your responsibility to please her by doing what she wants). You don't let her show disrespect to you (especially in the presence of your children). You don't allow her to manipulate you. You don't buckle under her pressure or be "passive" acting, in order to get out of dealing with her. In other words, don't be a "yes dear" kind of man.

I am sure I am forgetting a lot, but I'm almost afraid to say much b/c I am worried you will go too far the opposite direction. I do believe a man has to show tough love with most WAW's b/c most WAW's are some level of rebellion. And most of them usually have another man waiting in the wings somewhere. That is "most". We have a famous American author that I have followed his books and programs for many years. Dr. James Dobson has written about tough love. If you can get a copy of his book, it may shed light on this subject. However, the board will not recommend it b/c they feel it doesn't line up with with everything they teach. I don't believe it is all that contrary, but it is more in how people interprets things. Many get the wrong impression when they hear those words....tough love. But so do people get the wrong idea about DB and think it is some kind of kiss-a$$ type of advice.

So, I hope you will read LTH's post again, b/c she really had great suggestions.

Btw, you have not messed up! I am so glad you wrote what you did today, before you did mess up and speak harshly to her. You don't have to be a sissy-acting boy with her, but neither be a bugger-bear.

[Fartiltre]

LTH & Sandi

Thanks a million! Just read through your posts but time is 3 AM here and I need some sleep now. I will get back to you tomorrow but I get your drift!
Thanks again!

(I believe we have to discuss the blame-issue. I am not sure I get this totally and I will post about about this.)

Have a nice evening

F

[Fartiltre]

LTH, Sandi

Thanks for all your advice – I simply don’t know how I would have gone through these days without this.

I do have a thick skull. It is hard getting anything inside but on the other hand it stays inside when it finally get there! I have been at home working on the house all day long and while doing that I have been thinking and to be honest I am not sure I get this. I believe it’s my male lizard brain working against me and at the same time it has to cope with female advice regarding female behavior and perception – that is truly a hard one.

When I am told not to call then I don’t, but then you tell me to talk to children on Skype. That demands giving her a call so she can help them and right there my male brain starts smoking. Don’t call her – do call her! I am a man, ladies – remember? When I have told you that I will follow your advice then I do so! Don’t call her means don’t call her like in never ever! Same applies on don’t go into her house and don’t give her any cake (family time).

Skype is family-time since she is right beside them – it is a very small cake or a crumb I know. I did call her today and asked if she could set the Ds up on Skype. She did and it was so nice seeing them and talking to them. If I can do this it will make me feel good but isn’t it working against the advice you gave me.
(By the way: W sounded funny when I called - almost like she was telling me in her tone "WhyTF are you calling?" She turned nice quite quickly and tried to keep the Ds focus on Skype. She also interrupted and told something about them having tea and CAKE )

I am confused about when I can interact and at the same time I know I should chit-chat.
Is the point that I can contact her when it is about the children – also just a social call to the children like the Skype call?
Is this the “Bill and Boys” that I have read about in another sitch?
Should I chit-chat as long as it is strictly about Ds or should I only talk about facts, appointments, homework and leave out a nice moment with D and what if she starts doing this – should I end the talk? Sandi told me business-like convos at one time and that means no chit-chat at all as I see it!

I believe my confusion is centered on the exact do’s and don’ts and this is properly simply because my brain works squarely.

Do you know what I mean?

I am also confused about the sentences that I should use if she goes for the friend-issue again. I believe she will do this somewhere in the future. She won’t come directly at me – she will properly just invite me inside for coffee and when I turn her down she will ask why. This is the easy part since I can just state that I am meeting somebody or likewise. The hard part will be if she at some point want’s to discuss this! I will end the convo but still I need to say something to do it nicely.

It feels like I am missing the link or the road Sandi wrote about. Friends are to the left and blame is on the right – I have to walk this road and I can’t see it clearly – yet! I am getting closer but do believe I need some time to go over this – and luckily it seems like I have gotten the gift of time from W.

I don’t feel like being friends and I don’t feel like putting blame and guilt on her but you tell me to use words like “when you decided to leave” – isn’t this putting blame on her or is it just my lizardbrain once again?

Sandi, I don’t know if it was your writing, my reading or perhaps my English – but I thought you wanted me to assign blame (I haven’t done it!!). I did believe you wanted me to place the blame on her.
I am glad that I shouldn’t do this since I still feel no anger towards her. I believe she has the responsibility for BD but I still take my part of the responsibility for getting her there – that’s how I felt all the way and still does.

I know, it is hard on all of us. Unfortunately you and I knew it would be when you made this decision but the girls didn't really get it until after you moved

This sentence is simply excellent! I will have the hardest time doing sentences like this without totally understanding this. I understand all of your words but I don’t feel able to put them into action. I have tried to adjust towards your summary of how I should look at it all.

Some are yours and some are mine:
W: The children are hurting, please……
ME: It must be very difficult dealing with the children's sadness, but W, you surely thought about all this when you were making the decision to leave the M.
ME: I know, it is hard on all of us. Unfortunately you and I knew it would be when you made this decision but the girls didn't really get it until after you moved
W: Why don’t you want to be friends?
ME: This is a result of your choices. I always wanted a R with you but then you chose to leave the R and along with you leaving came a different R for us. I will continue to co-parent, be the best father possible and I will be friendly towards you but I can’t be your friend.

W: Why don’t you want to do things as a family? / You are hurting the children when you don’t want to do things together with me
ME: "W, I have thought a lot about doing things together as a family. You have chosen to move on and I don't see how this will help the girls in the long run. Us being friendly when we see each other will help the girls but dinner, I don't think that will help"
ME: W, I am just trying to protect the children from further hurt. Since you chose to move out the children have been hurting, but they will get better and I won’t be responsible for pulling them through this process once more when one of us gets hooked up again.
ME: W, the children are hurting because they don’t have us together anymore that’s just the deal of D and surely you have thought about this when you decided to move on. Having dinner once in a while will just rip up their wounds and I won’t do that.
W: Why don’t you answer my calls and texts?
ME: If I am not busy I do answer them – if you have something very important about the children then send me a text and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

W: Why haven’t you told me this before? / Why have you been so nice when we lived together?
ME: Things were different when we lived together after you made the decision to. You pretended and so did I – I felt I had to keep things light and pleasant for the children’s sake – they will always be my first priority. I will continue to be friendly with you but since we are not living together anymore I will not be your friend.

W: Come on in and have a cup of coffee
ME: Thanks, but I have to meet somebody soon so I have to run

W: Can I come in?
ME: Is there anything we need to address right now?
ME: Sorry, we/I do not have the time right now.
ME: Yes, but only for a minute or so – I/we have plans.

I am sure I am forgetting a lot, but I'm almost afraid to say much b/c I am worried you will go too far the opposite direction.

Sandi…I won’t! I will do my best to stay on the path between friends and blame. I do believe I understand the principals but putting them in to actuals sentences when I talk to W will be my problem!

I will look into Dobson. “Love must be tough” is available on kindle so I can have that one in a second. He has also written “Love must be tough: Straight talk”. Which one are you suggesting? Both?


Perhaps I just need a day or two or a hundred going through this over and over - and then it will possible get through my skull. I want so bad to understand the why's and how's because then the do's will get so much easier! If at some point the two of you succeeds I would love to be able to tell you a shortcut to use in the future when other LBHs turns towards you.

Ladies, I keep on posting Thanks and it doesn’t cover my feelings towards all the time and help you have given me!

I am off to bed - enjoy the rest of your day and sleep tight when you decide the day has come to an end!

F

[hotwheelsaust]

F, you are doing great, but I would think sandi is going to come back and tell you, you are putting too much thought into everything. Relax, we don't always say the right things at the right times. Just remember to change your focus: you are co-parenting, not friends.
With regards to Skype: should you not work out a time to call, as a permanent fixture. ie. when the girls are with W you will call on Thursday, Saturday and Monday at 7pm. The W can set up the computer, get it already and that's that. If the W is on Skype as well, again be friendly, but the focus is on the girls and what the girls are doing.
Hope it helps a bit.

[sandi2]

Last night I spent almost an hour typing out a long post, trying to clarify my part in the advice I have given. Somehow, I accidentally lost every bit of it. Today, I take a deep breath and do it all over again. Guess what? I lost it again. I just can't go into all of it for the third time. I feel I am repeating myself, as it is.

I did not discuss the Skype with you, but at the risk of answering for LTH, you are not the W. You are calling the girls, you just have to go through the W to tell her you want to skype with the kids. You are not using Skype to communicate with her, it is "for" the girls.

You don't chit-chat in a llong, private conversation "to" her. You may not be able to advoid or ignore her when she is there with the kids, but you direct your attention to the kids......not the W. Why is that so hard,to understand? I have already told you not to get extreme and to use good common sense in these matters. If you want contact with the kids via Skype, then you have to go through her, but you don't make it "about" her. It is all about the kids. If W tries to ask questions during that time, you give short answers (politely), but quickly turn it around by saying something to one of the kids.

Sure you want a list of do's and don'ts, but I did a list like that one time and the next thing I knew, it was being called Sandi's rules. There are no rules, just suggestions and some examples. The same applies in your stitch presently. Nobody can tell you word for word what you say to W if she ask this or that, if she does this or that. All we can do is tell you not to be cold, rude, mean, or punitive. Don't make a call to her so you can chit-chat. But something may require you to have to call. Do you tell yourself you can't just b/c Sandi said no calls? Use your good common sense to decide if it is important enough to make an exception. Is it about the kids or business? If not, then that just leaves personal. That seems like a guide to me, but maybe I am forgetting something.

I did tell you that the answers you give to some of her questions regarding friendship, etc., should be directed to her choice in leaving you. It is the results of her decisions. But you don't get to tell her those exact words every time she asks something. She is suppose to get that message as time goes on. And there may be no other way to tell her why you are doing what you're doing now...without saying those exact,words. But if you are blunt and cold, it comes across as sounding like blame assigning. Don't throw blame directly in her face by sounding like you have eaten bitter grapes. Just remember that whenever you must be plain spoken to her, use a soft voice and keep the sound of revenge out of your tone. Understand? When I saw your examples of how you could answer some of her questions, that is when it hit me that you thought I was instructing you in how to talk to her hatefully. That would be hurting yourself. Instead, you want to say things and do things for her to get this message that this is the results of your decision to break up the family.

One more thing, then I have to stop tonight. If she comes to your house and asks if she can go in, my advice is to say, "sure". The reason is b/c your house was where she,shared part of her life with you. When she steps in that house, she has memories of those times. Hopefully, they will trigger positive emotions in her heart. Sometimes, it works in favor of the H for her to see the house that no longer has her personal touches that it once did. Do you see the difference in letting her come in your house, but you not going in hers? Again, these are guidelines. Don't get crazy and think if one of the girls are asleep when you take them home that you couldn't carry her into the hose. It's not like you were "staying" to visit with W, b/c you would turn around and leave once you had the child laid down. Use common sense!

[lovethehub]

F, you are doing great, but I would think sandi is going to come back and tell you, you are putting too much thought into everything. Relax, we don't always say the right things at the right times. Just remember to change your focus: you are co-parenting, not friends.
With regards to Skype: should you not work out a time to call, as a permanent fixture. ie. when the girls are with W you will call on Thursday, Saturday and Monday at 7pm. The W can set up the computer, get it already and that's that. If the W is on Skype as well, again be friendly, but the focus is on the girls and what the girls are doing.
Hope it helps a bit.

I will start at the end..Hotwheels is correct - you are putting WAY too much thought into this. You must be exhausted!

Yes, you are co-parenting and that is your focus. Set up the skype ahead of time, and if you can't, that is fine. When you do set it up, be direct, "I called to see if you can set the girls up on Skype".

When I am told not to call then I don’t, but then you tell me to talk to children on Skype. That demands giving her a call so she can help them and right there my male brain starts smoking. Don’t call her – do call her! I am a man, ladies – remember? When I have told you that I will follow your advice then I do so! Don’t call her means don’t call her like in never ever! Same applies on don’t go into her house and don’t give her any cake (family time).

I metioned skyping the kids so that may be why Sandi didn't mention it in what to say. Again, don't be so literal. Calling her to interact with your children and calling her to interact with her are two completely different things.

Skype is family-time since she is right beside them – it is a very small cake or a crumb I know

How is this family time? If she chooses to be right next to them it is because she wants you to see her. If you have a set schedule to skype it so you can see your daughters.

Is the point that I can contact her when it is about the children – also just a social call to the children like the Skype call?

Unless it is an emergency, don't contact her at all. If it is for skyping, this schedule should be set up ahead of time and then she will clearly know it is about you seeing your children and not inventing reasons to contact her.

Should I chit-chat as long as it is strictly about Ds or should I only talk about facts, appointments, homework and leave out a nice moment with D and what if she starts doing this – should I end the talk? Sandi told me business-like convos at one time and that means no chit-chat at all as I see it!

Do not chit-chat. Set up skype on a regular schedule and ignore the rest. Yes, listen to Sandi. "Business-like" Do you discuss your d's and what is going on with your clients?

I believe my confusion is centered on the exact do’s and don’ts and this is properly simply because my brain works squarely.

Do you know what I mean?

F, we want care about you and want to help you - you simply cannot overthink every little thing.

I am also confused about the sentences that I should use if she goes for the friend-issue again. I believe she will do this somewhere in the future. She won’t come directly at me – she will properly just invite me inside for coffee and when I turn her down she will ask why. This is the easy part since I can just state that I am meeting somebody or likewise. The hard part will be if she at some point want’s to discuss this! I will end the convo but still I need to say something to do it nicely.

This is not the "easy part" You have to establish a boundary, not make an excuse that leads her to believe you are in a hurry. She must know that you don't want to be friends, you just want to be friendly. Sandi and I have both given you examples of things to say. Where is your confusion coming in on this?

I don’t feel like being friends and I don’t feel like putting blame and guilt on her but you tell me to use words like “when you decided to leave” – isn’t this putting blame on her or is it just my lizardbrain once again?

You don't want to put blame on her? Are we clear on this? a day or two ago you wanted her to tell the D's it was her fault. F, there isn't any blame to assign. Yes, you 180'd and W didnt' respond, however, even according to you she tried to get you to understand before BD. So it isn't your W's fault. You both failed. You before BD, your W after. The words are simply to show that she made the decision to go and that is why you need to move on. If you suddenly aren't comfortable with blame, adjust the words accordingly.

Sandi, I don’t know if it was your writing, my reading or perhaps my English – but I thought you wanted me to assign blame (I haven’t done it!!). I did believe you wanted me to place the blame on her.
I am glad that I shouldn’t do this since I still feel no anger towards her. I believe she has the responsibility for BD but I still take my part of the responsibility for getting her there – that’s how I felt all the way and still does.

F, seriously? You have repeatedly spoken about W needing to accept responsibility with D's for making this decision. NOW you don't blame her and don't know where Sandi got the idea you should? She may be R for BD but you have just as much, if not more, R for before BD. And I say 'if not more' because you admitted she tried to get you to understand how she felt.

This sentence is simply excellent! I will have the hardest time doing sentences like this without totally understanding this. I understand all of your words but I don’t feel able to put them into action. I have tried to adjust towards your summary of how I should look at it all.

Again, since you have repeatedly pointed out that it is your W's fault, and the kids should know this, I have no clear idea on how you don't understand this. It doesn't even place the blame on fully on her.

F, it seems you keep asking the same ?s until you get an answer that you like, or wording that you like. (The Girl Scout issue with D^ is a perfect example, we all gave you great ways to handle it and reasons why D6 shouldn't miss out. You asked several times until Sandi agreed with you and then you never mentioned it again so I am assuming you have your justification not to agree with W on GS)

[T1000]

I think F is so organized and black and white that the extra work he is putting in is actually making this more complicated than it is.

You have put a lot off effort into that list. It's a good list but it's not and never will be everything.

Take this for example:
W: Why don’t you want to be friends?

Chances are she won't ask this.

She might ask Will we ever be friends?
Whats your answer? It's not on your list so you don't have one.

All times I have tried to predict what was going to happen when I interact with W I have been way off. Just know your general position and try to stick to that if possible and use your judgement every time (something I am guilty of not doing).
I believe part of my problems right now is I never used my judgement t all I just I stuck to the rules. They are guide lines and the sooner you get that hopefully the simpler this will become.

[lovethehub]

Well said T!

[sandi2]

It amazes me how men relate to each other. It takes me pages to say something one of the guys sum up in a couple of sentences. I hope F look below for an example:

All times I have tried to predict what was going to happen when I interact with W I have been way off. Just know your general position and try to stick to that if possible and use your judgement every time (something I am guilty of not doing).

So true! T would devote the entire THREAD to what he "could" say or "might" say to his W. But you can't whip out a little memo pad where you've written possible responses, in just in case you're asked something by your W.

I believe part of my problems right now is I never used my judgement t all I just I stuck to the rules. They are guide lines and the sooner you get that hopefully the simpler this will become.

Thanks for telling F this about your experience, T. The two of you do remind me of each other in wanting a list of do's and don'ts for each situation. It's not always that cut & dry. That's life. Nothing is always going to be exactly the same every time.

But when you know the main purpose, the goal, your boundaries, and apply your good judgement (or common sense) to the situation at hand.....then you won't appear to be so ridgid.

T can tell you, F, learning how to balance and learning good timing is everything!