better to love or be loved?

[RosaLinda]

WillBWell "Rosalinda, please forgive me and I may get the 2x4, but my h says it was nothing that I did or did not do. 

It is just him. He doesn't want to be married anymore There is no list of things he gave me, no complaining"

i'm sorry too WBW, I did not mean to imply that you did anything wrong. I just meant that I appreciate the advice, because I do have a lot of things to work on, trying to work on. And that I hope that my H will see that my changes are permanent (some are 4 years old already!) and realize that staying married to me is 100 times better than getting divorced and marrying that Tramp OW of his. 

[BeginningAgain]

I can't even believe I am typing this. I am a smart aleck. I should go back and delete because I don't want to show that side of me...
I've got to lose the smart aleck...my issue. not attractive

Half the battle of solving an issue is admitting to yourself and others that you have one. Good that you recognize this, now you can move on to taking steps to eliminate it.

BA

[willbwell]

Rosalinda, I do have stuff to work on, battling with and accepting my part in all of this. realizing that I too have issues that maybe I don't want to acknowledge. I'm not the miss perfect wife that I like to believe I am. But, like you, I don't doubt that staying married to me is 100 times better than the train wreck that he is caught up in now.

I see my smart aleck ways... How to eliminate???

[willbwell]

kind and considerate. From this day forward...words of affirmation.
think twice before the smart aleck retorts. they do me no good. make me no better

[BeginningAgain]

I see my smart aleck ways... How to eliminate???

Well one way is to think about what (and how) you are going to say something before you actually say it. Another way is to ask your friends/family around you to call you out when you are being a smart aleck.

BA

[Underdog]

Will,

realizing that I too have issues that maybe I don't want to acknowledge.

Well, this is a good place to start. Denial ain't a river in Egypt and now is as good a time to make yourself a newer, happier version of you. I kind of had to laugh when you posted your H said it was nothing you did and all him. That's a bunch of BS. He just doesn't want to share that with you. Why not? Because you might interpret his desire to share the real reasons as an invitation to actively work on them and feel hopeful.

Like you, I have a developmentally disabled teenage daughter. So does Barb (SunFunOne). I know firsthand how much stress it puts on a marriage and family overall. You may not want to see it as the cause (I don't), but the very nature of their needs force the parents to go into survival mode. Once that happens, the nurturing stops.

I've been a smart aleck my whole life. But I have NEVER been a mean one. If your "smartie pants" personality has you making fun of anyone, it's bullying. How do you think your kids felt when they saw you making fun of their dad and his job?

Look, my purpose isn't to get you to feel shame. My purpose is that it's really simple to stop those behaviors. Ask yourself how you'd feel on the other side of any of your comments. Ask yourself how your kids might see your actions if they were watching a movie of you.

I have been sarcastic my whole life as well. My XH told me in our 1st round of counseling that he hated it. I felt it was part of my personality and didn't really take his feelings into consideration. So 5 years later, it was in the top 5 of his most hated things about Betsey list that I received. You might ask why sarcasm is THAT bad of a sin.

It confuses people. They don't often know if it's a passive aggressive way of disguising true feelings.

What made me change? When my XH moved out, my then 7 year old daughter told me that my anger scared her and my sarcasm made her feel confused. THAT was enough for me to change.

I'm still mildly sarcastic - but only in circumstances that are amusing and they are not masks to my feelings. I use it sparingly. A little bit goes a long way.

I'm one of those people who lived in limbo for 2 years until he filed for D. It gave me every opportunity to work on myself and the behaviors that I needed to change to be a happier person. I DB'd my butt off. I don't regret giving him that time because it literally cooled everyone off. But I hated living in limbo. It's not the panacea you might think. My kids were far younger than yours (7 and 4) when their dad moved out. I *needed* to give them a shot of getting their family back.

If you have any compassion for this man, you'll do the work, Will. You hurt him and now he doesn't want you. So be it. He hasn't made that his final word by his actions so use the bought time and just focus on you and those kids.

BTW, I need to say this: I know you aren't 100% responsible for the mess you're in. He's apparently got his own issues and negative traits. I'm sure the list of his transgressions according to you is also there so he doesn't get a free pass.

But since he wants out and you don't, changing how you think, feel and act is now in your court.

In the meantime, I have to agree with Ellie that you need to contact a lawyer. You have a special needs kid to consider and in the very, very near future you are going to have to establish guardianship and make arrangements for HER. With your separation not defined, you need to get that defined and stat.

Legal separation in Colorado means squat. So we didn't do it. However, we hired a mediator to work on the parenting time, and support terms. Then when he filed for D, we converted all our work into the D. The first task our mediator assigned to us was to get a special needs trust set up for our now D16. It took a couple months and about $1000.

Don't see this as an obstacle or a death knell. See it as a safeguard for your family. A document of the terms of engagement going forward. Use it as a means to address the unknowns you fear.

I wasn't a SAHM because I was always afraid of not having power and a lack of income. (Childhood baggage.) You shouldn't see this as something to fear. If your H died, you'd have to do everything anyway, so take on the task of learning how to manage a household with appreciation and excitement. You'll feel better about you knowing you can do it.

We used to have a saying here way back when. Stop looking at his train wreck and start focusing on cleaning up your own. You've got enough stuff on your plate that requires your focus and all your attention, so get busy.

Just ask BA - nobody likes a complainer.

That doesn't mean we're not here to support you, but you have to put your money where your mouth is.

So I'll say it instead of Linda and I won't feel bad for asking: what ARE the things you know he didn't like in your M? What are the behaviors you demonstrated that made him feel the way he feels now? I'd bring that list into your IC and ask for help in changing the ones that present you in an unflattering light to the world.

Hey, we're all works in process Will. But like BA, I'm a much happier person for being forced to take this route and shed light on some of the personality traits I had that were not conducive to a marriage. Do it for you. Do it for your kids. No matter what happens, you'll be better off having learned the lessons. Trust us on that.

Good luck! And for goodness sake, I hope you're getting some sleep. I know for sure that being sleep deprived certainly contributed to the demise of my own marriage. I don't think either one of us made good decisions in a fog. You've got a tough road with your 15 year old, so hope you take a big e-hug from me.

Take care--

Betsey

[25yearsmlc]

Will,

realizing that I too have issues that maybe I don't want to acknowledge.

Well, this is a good place to start. Denial ain't a river in Egypt and now is as good a time to make yourself a newer, happier version of you. I kind of had to laugh when you posted your H said it was nothing you did and all him. That's a bunch of BS. He just doesn't want to share that with you. Why not? Because you might interpret his desire to share the real reasons as an invitation to actively work on them and feel hopeful.

Thank you for saying this^^ Underdog...b/c I thought the same thing, and a few other thoughts.

I also believe that there is almost NEVER a WAS who leaves his spouse without (INTERNALLY) blaming at least part of the reason, on the LBSer. Unless it's men/women who decide they are gay. So whatever the WAS SAYS out loud, is only somewhat relevant.

There are admissions they do not want to make, either to you, society, their children or themselves.

For a WAS who is leaving his wife & kids, chances are they tell themselves they are NOT leaving the "family" but them marriage they were unhappy in.

But telling you any of the real reasons (or lying about them) just opens the door for a reaction from you, which will lead to a "relationship talk" or "discussion" which he does not want.

He fears it will lead him to an admission he does not want to make OR to a fight. Or defensiveness on your end, or denial...
he does NOT want to engage. He believes he wants OUT of the marriage, but were there a lot of conflicts between him and the kids?



Like you, I have a developmentally disabled teenage daughter. So does Barb (SunFunOne). I know firsthand how much stress it puts on a marriage and family overall. You may not want to see it as the cause (I don't), but the very nature of their needs force the parents to go into survival mode. Once that happens, the nurturing stops.


Interesting insight. I'd also add that a sick/dying parent can do that as well. It is exhausting and draining and emotionally a constant stressor. Talk about lowering libido...

I've been a smart aleck my whole life. But I have NEVER been a mean one.

Really? Maybe not consciously. But Are you saying your humor was always at your expense? I mean, I can be very sarcastic. Sometimes it helps to make a point or is simply funny.

OTher times it's biting, and not from a place of love or light in my heart. I have worked on this b/c it often wounds far FAR more deeply, and lasts much longer than we realize, or care to admit.

After my h's Alaskan dream/fantasy blew up on him and us, and was a financially devastating blow, his father lit into him about it.
There was nothing for me to ever say, after that. Plus, h apologized.

True, I had warned him specifically, contractually, of how risky the venture was, with little guaranteed in response. I opposed it totally and he left anyhow, and said I was being "too pessimistic and biased", although I am a L. Anyhow, He was simply wrong and it cost us a lot. A LOT...

So what was the loving thing to say? OFTEN The most loving to say at that time, was NOTHING.

We all need to Learn to STFU. It was a huge lesson for me. Silence can be golden and when it's not, it is not necessarily OUR job to end it. LET THEM TALK MORE, b/c it's good for us and them.

Consider it a reconnaissance mission at the start, if you need that to discipline yourself. LISTEN. Know that NOT making the snide remark that you think is actually "witty", BUT at HIS expense, will benefit you more than you know.

If this is a real 180 you work on, then There WILL be times when your h expects a withering retort or comment from you - but does not get it.
That will be noticed, subconsciously at first...then more openly and he'll feel more relaxed at home.

That's a goal, WW. Making it easier for him to be around you. OR LESSEN your presence. Why must you be home when he is there?

I'd be more scarce WW. BE a little mysterious.

And saying these comments we make are "smart aleck", well I struggle with that terminology. I doubt it is the terminology the spouse would use AND it's probably a crappy example we set for the kids.

Why not openly say what you really mean, instead of being "smart alecky"?

Is it a euphemism for passive aggressiveness? Is it a euphemism for snotty or critical? I am being sincere and not meaning to give a 2 x 4.

Not yet anyhow. But be wary of how WE describe ourselves and then contrast how we would describe our spouses. See how fair we are...or not.


If your "smartie pants" personality has you making fun of anyone, it's bullying. How do you think your kids felt when they saw you making fun of their dad and his job?

Exactly. And WW, don't think we are judging you. For ME, this behavior was something I personally had to work on b/c I was furious when h was leaving. And I made many remarks that were NOT helpful or needed or loving. But if there ANY humor in it, I thought it was somehow worth it and the real reason was b/c I could use the humor as a shield for making a nasty cutting remark. I was hurting.

But it was just idiotic of me to think THAT would "wake him up". Indeed, understandably, it made him flee faster.


Look, my purpose isn't to get you to feel shame. My purpose is that it's really simple to stop those behaviors. Ask yourself how you'd feel on the other side of any of your comments. Ask yourself how your kids might see your actions if they were watching a movie of you.

I have been sarcastic my whole life as well. My XH told me in our 1st round of counseling that he hated it. I felt it was part of my personality and didn't really take his feelings into consideration. So 5 years later, it was in the top 5 of his most hated things about Betsey list that I received. You might ask why sarcasm is THAT bad of a sin.

Brave questions, ladies...


It confuses people. They don't often know if it's a passive aggressive way of disguising true feelings.

it is often just that^^^, or a slightly clever way of cutting someone down. Instead of calling them stupid to their face, and sounding "mean", we roll our eyes and make a sarcastic over the top statement, and might pretend we're hilarious.

Hey, I do stand up comedy as an avocation. Seriously, I am funny. (Get it?)

But truly, I always have to watch who the target of the joke REALLY is and there are "rules" to it. I know if it's not me or some entity we can all hate (like Congress), it's a lot safer. It's a lot less likely to be nasty.

What made me change? When my XH moved out, my then 7 year old daughter told me that my anger scared her and my sarcasm made her feel confused. THAT was enough for me to change.

I'm still mildly sarcastic - but only in circumstances that are amusing and they are not masks to my feelings. I use it sparingly. A little bit goes a long way.

I'm one of those people who lived in limbo for 2 years until he filed for D. It gave me every opportunity to work on myself and the behaviors that I needed to change to be a happier person. I DB'd my butt off. I don't regret giving him that time because it literally cooled everyone off. But I hated living in limbo. It's not the panacea you might think. My kids were far younger than yours (7 and 4) when their dad moved out. I *needed* to give them a shot of getting their family back.

If you have any compassion for this man, you'll do the work, Will. You hurt him and now he doesn't want you. So be it. He hasn't made that his final word by his actions so use the bought time and just focus on you and those kids.

Total agreement with this^^. Though WW, I appreciate that you know you have gifts, and that you will not always be alone, or feel unloved, etc. I'm glad you are not mired in negative futurizing. But you posted just one or two posts ago that were really brave and deep. Stay on that track.


BTW, I need to say this: I know you aren't 100% responsible for the mess you're in. He's apparently got his own issues and negative traits. I'm sure the list of his transgressions according to you is also there so he doesn't get a free pass.

But since he wants out and you don't, changing how you think, feel and act is now in your court.

Since you are here to work on your m, and HE IS NOT, there is zero value in you wishing he'd change. OR improve. We cannot help you with it. Besides, it's Not a productive use of YOUR time and energy.



In the meantime, I have to agree with Ellie that you need to contact a lawyer. You have a special needs kid to consider and in the very, very near future you are going to have to establish guardianship and make arrangements for HER. With your separation not defined, you need to get that defined and stat.

Legal separation in Colorado means squat. So we didn't do it. However, we hired a mediator to work on the parenting time, and support terms. Then when he filed for D, we converted all our work into the D. The first task our mediator assigned to us was to get a special needs trust set up for our now D16. It took a couple months and about $1000.

Don't see this as an obstacle or a death knell. See it as a safeguard for your family. A document of the terms of engagement going forward. Use it as a means to address the unknowns you fear.

That special needs trust would probably be very smart to do even if you stayed married. You could be both be killed in an accident and she needs to be situated in a way that your boys don't feel it's all up to them.


I wasn't a SAHM because I was always afraid of not having power and a lack of income. (Childhood baggage.) You shouldn't see this as something to fear. If your H died, you'd have to do everything anyway, so take on the task of learning how to manage a household with appreciation and excitement. You'll feel better about you knowing you can do it.

We used to have a saying here way back when. Stop looking at his train wreck and start focusing on cleaning up your own. You've got enough stuff on your plate that requires your focus and all your attention, so get busy.

Just ask BA - nobody likes a complainer.

That doesn't mean we're not here to support you, but you have to put your money where your mouth is.

So I'll say it instead of Linda and I won't feel bad for asking: what ARE the things you know he didn't like in your M? What are the behaviors you demonstrated that made him feel the way he feels now? I'd bring that list into your IC and ask for help in changing the ones that present you in an unflattering light to the world.

Hey, we're all works in process Will. But like BA, I'm a much happier person for being forced to take this route and shed light on some of the personality traits I had that were not conducive to a marriage. Do it for you. Do it for your kids. No matter what happens, you'll be better off having learned the lessons. Trust us on that.

Good luck! And for goodness sake, I hope you're getting some sleep. I know for sure that being sleep deprived certainly contributed to the demise of my own marriage. I don't think either one of us made good decisions in a fog. You've got a tough road with your 15 year old, so hope you take a big e-hug from me.

Take care--

Betsey

Amen.
((( )))

[Underdog]

Will,

Hope you're okay after my marathon post yesterday. Seriously, I want you to know that I have an affection for parents of special needs kids. I will go out of my way for them because I know how hard it is.

And 25MLC, you're right about taking care of a parent. Any time you are in the position of taking care of someone who can't take care of themselves, it's emotionally and physically draining as well as isolating.

So 25 MLC made some awfully smart and relevant comments to my post and yours earlier. They really resonated with me and brought me back to January 2003 when my XH moved out. I was left to deal with miserable old me and trying to figure out what I was going to do. I found DR in March of that year and then got my ass some plans. I kept a solutions journal and ROCKED my goals.

I got lovely Laurie as my DB coach and logged my backslides, his reactions to things I tried and did more of what worked and less of what didn't.

Hell, earlier this summer, I was having R troubles with my D19 after she moved home from college, and Wii pointed out to me that I needed to DB her. He was absolutely right.

I'm going to use a very specific example here because I have a sneaking feeling you might have a similar dynamic in your house. My family (nuclear and my marital family) has - for some reason - fed off MY moods. If I'm in the dumps, they don't lift me up, and they wind up in bad moods. I don't get that, but then again, I never specifically asked them to lift me up either. Anyway, way back when I was DBing my XH, as a result of my solutions journal, I realized this. So a few of my pals here and I conducted an experiment. We called it the Bob Barker principle. LOL

You remember Bob? The former host of The Price is Right? He was always happy and always smiled. He had to deal with dumb people, but he never wavered on his cheerfulness and supporting them while they were too stupid to play the High and Low Game. So, I came home one night and put on my megawatt Bob Barker smile and literally pulled my entire family up about 3 levels. I had totally forgotten that until this summer...

...when my D19 told me that she fed off my stress and bad mood and it made her not want to talk to me. After Wii reminded me that I needed to DB her, I put Bob back into action. Even my D16 was jazzed. There is something attractive and engaging when you're HAPPY. If you don't feel happy, fake it until you make it. Seriously, just watching my family's faces light up DID make me happy. I think I laughed out loud at it for awhile.

Let's get back to being smarty pants and/or sarcastic. I'm not sure if you consider yourself sarcastic, but sometimes smart aleckness plays well with sarcasm.

BTW, 25, I was blessed with great genetics - I come from a long line (paternal side) of people with a GREAT smile. It's my best asset. I have perfect teeth and dimples and my eyes twinkle when I smile. So in my distant past when I was a smart aleck, I could get away with it because people could see the sincerity of my humor in my eyes.

My sarcasm was where I got tripped up. And yes, it always accompanied eye rolling and a dramatic sigh for pause. Horrible, horrible stuff.

And like you, I'm seriously funny. I know I could do some very limited stand up somewhere. Unless I use the ubiquitous group thing like you do, my target of my humor is me. I make fun of me.

Will, 25 was also very, very astute on the principle of buttoning the mouth. In fact I'm going to say this out for everyone to see it. THIS was my 180. It was single handedly the first thing my XH noticed about my changes. When I quit trying to have the last word, he paid attention.

I also want to commend you for saying things that are hard to say about yourself. It's a hard path, Will.

Since 25 was able to restore her marriage, she's a great role model for you. I wasn't able to do that, but I was one of the lucky people who got my XH back as my friend. He's in my top 5 list of friends, so it's not lip service. We couldn't have returned to being friends without employing the DB principles and me actively deciding that I wanted to change for ME.

I'm going to say something to you that I wouldn't say to any other poster here. I don't normally tell people what to do - it's not my style. I'm much more the kind of person who puts stuff out on the table as food for thought. But I'm going to break that rule now.

You are going to have to parent your special needs D15 with this man for the rest of her life. I want you to consider that. Not only does she need her dad, but you need his help. Ask Barb - doing the bulk of the advocacy for your child single handedly is tough. I'm not saying you *can* do it. But you should try... you should make your #1 goal to get the kind of R with your H where you can co-parent in a friendly way. If you can BE friends, that's even better. But make your goal to interact with him on a level that's fair and solution minded.

In fact, most of the decisions made for my D16 have been deferred to me. I used to take that ball and roll with it. It also became the bone of contention - because I was viewed as controlling. SO... starting in early 2003, I started asking his opinion on her care. Once he felt safe doing that with me, we got to a really good point. I saw HIM through different eyes. And I also saw that he was smart, intuitive and he thought of things I hadn't thought of. In fact, we have had 4 conversations in the past hour about an issue she's having and we're drilling down on that. I'm SO glad I don't have to do this on my own.

Do it for you - you need respite care and the best person for that job is her dad. But you're going to have to create an environment and culture that makes it SAFE for him to engage with you.

I'm here to help if you need me. Because I think it's worthwhile.

And BTW, everything I learned here translated beautifully at work. I am in sales... and guess what? The techniques have sure helped me get better at those skills - listening, validating, looking for solutions, accepting responsibility when things don't go as planned. So look at this path as a means of furthering your education and employment prospects.

Hugs--

Betsey

p.s. Please ask us how you can make it safe for your H to engage with you. I can promise you honesty and help if you're willing to pull up your sleeves and start setting goals. Pretty sure the rest of the gang will be here to support you.

[RosaLinda]

Betsey "There is something attractive and engaging when you're HAPPY. If you don't feel happy, fake it until you make it. Seriously, just watching my family's faces light up DID make me happy. I think I laughed out loud at it for awhile"

Wow Betsey this is such an excellent excellent post. I'm going to try this. Thanks. 

My H mentioned in passing that his Russian Tramp used to be so much fun and now she's bitchy, desperate, unhappy. He has also said that he likes being around me cause I'm happy. I am usually cheerful but not sparklingly so! Boy I have a lot to work on and I'm adding overwhelmingly irristably happy. Practicing at work right now. 

[Underdog]

Linda,

One word of caution: use the Bob Barker wisely. Too much of him makes people wonder if you're off your rocker or bipolar. A little über happiness goes a long way. But if you can gauge the reactions of those around you positively, I'd say to do more of that in moderation. But it's seriously fun to see how impacting you can be just by smiling like a loon...

I'll try to recall some of the other things we did way back when that helped. But by and large, not having the last word, validating his feelings and stopping myself from having to be right all the time helped steer my ship around. This isn't to say we don't still have our skirmishes... We do. I just don't take his moods personally anymore. And we are in a place now where I can call him out when he's being a prick. And I get an apology and attitude change. That wasn't the case 10 years ago.

Back to WBW. It's your show, darling.

Betsey