better to love or be loved?

[25yearsmlc]

Will,

realizing that I too have issues that maybe I don't want to acknowledge.

Well, this is a good place to start. Denial ain't a river in Egypt and now is as good a time to make yourself a newer, happier version of you. I kind of had to laugh when you posted your H said it was nothing you did and all him. That's a bunch of BS. He just doesn't want to share that with you. Why not? Because you might interpret his desire to share the real reasons as an invitation to actively work on them and feel hopeful.

Thank you for saying this^^ Underdog...b/c I thought the same thing, and a few other thoughts.

I also believe that there is almost NEVER a WAS who leaves his spouse without (INTERNALLY) blaming at least part of the reason, on the LBSer. Unless it's men/women who decide they are gay. So whatever the WAS SAYS out loud, is only somewhat relevant.

There are admissions they do not want to make, either to you, society, their children or themselves.

For a WAS who is leaving his wife & kids, chances are they tell themselves they are NOT leaving the "family" but them marriage they were unhappy in.

But telling you any of the real reasons (or lying about them) just opens the door for a reaction from you, which will lead to a "relationship talk" or "discussion" which he does not want.

He fears it will lead him to an admission he does not want to make OR to a fight. Or defensiveness on your end, or denial...
he does NOT want to engage. He believes he wants OUT of the marriage, but were there a lot of conflicts between him and the kids?



Like you, I have a developmentally disabled teenage daughter. So does Barb (SunFunOne). I know firsthand how much stress it puts on a marriage and family overall. You may not want to see it as the cause (I don't), but the very nature of their needs force the parents to go into survival mode. Once that happens, the nurturing stops.


Interesting insight. I'd also add that a sick/dying parent can do that as well. It is exhausting and draining and emotionally a constant stressor. Talk about lowering libido...

I've been a smart aleck my whole life. But I have NEVER been a mean one.

Really? Maybe not consciously. But Are you saying your humor was always at your expense? I mean, I can be very sarcastic. Sometimes it helps to make a point or is simply funny.

OTher times it's biting, and not from a place of love or light in my heart. I have worked on this b/c it often wounds far FAR more deeply, and lasts much longer than we realize, or care to admit.

After my h's Alaskan dream/fantasy blew up on him and us, and was a financially devastating blow, his father lit into him about it.
There was nothing for me to ever say, after that. Plus, h apologized.

True, I had warned him specifically, contractually, of how risky the venture was, with little guaranteed in response. I opposed it totally and he left anyhow, and said I was being "too pessimistic and biased", although I am a L. Anyhow, He was simply wrong and it cost us a lot. A LOT...

So what was the loving thing to say? OFTEN The most loving to say at that time, was NOTHING.

We all need to Learn to STFU. It was a huge lesson for me. Silence can be golden and when it's not, it is not necessarily OUR job to end it. LET THEM TALK MORE, b/c it's good for us and them.

Consider it a reconnaissance mission at the start, if you need that to discipline yourself. LISTEN. Know that NOT making the snide remark that you think is actually "witty", BUT at HIS expense, will benefit you more than you know.

If this is a real 180 you work on, then There WILL be times when your h expects a withering retort or comment from you - but does not get it.
That will be noticed, subconsciously at first...then more openly and he'll feel more relaxed at home.

That's a goal, WW. Making it easier for him to be around you. OR LESSEN your presence. Why must you be home when he is there?

I'd be more scarce WW. BE a little mysterious.

And saying these comments we make are "smart aleck", well I struggle with that terminology. I doubt it is the terminology the spouse would use AND it's probably a crappy example we set for the kids.

Why not openly say what you really mean, instead of being "smart alecky"?

Is it a euphemism for passive aggressiveness? Is it a euphemism for snotty or critical? I am being sincere and not meaning to give a 2 x 4.

Not yet anyhow. But be wary of how WE describe ourselves and then contrast how we would describe our spouses. See how fair we are...or not.


If your "smartie pants" personality has you making fun of anyone, it's bullying. How do you think your kids felt when they saw you making fun of their dad and his job?

Exactly. And WW, don't think we are judging you. For ME, this behavior was something I personally had to work on b/c I was furious when h was leaving. And I made many remarks that were NOT helpful or needed or loving. But if there ANY humor in it, I thought it was somehow worth it and the real reason was b/c I could use the humor as a shield for making a nasty cutting remark. I was hurting.

But it was just idiotic of me to think THAT would "wake him up". Indeed, understandably, it made him flee faster.


Look, my purpose isn't to get you to feel shame. My purpose is that it's really simple to stop those behaviors. Ask yourself how you'd feel on the other side of any of your comments. Ask yourself how your kids might see your actions if they were watching a movie of you.

I have been sarcastic my whole life as well. My XH told me in our 1st round of counseling that he hated it. I felt it was part of my personality and didn't really take his feelings into consideration. So 5 years later, it was in the top 5 of his most hated things about Betsey list that I received. You might ask why sarcasm is THAT bad of a sin.

Brave questions, ladies...


It confuses people. They don't often know if it's a passive aggressive way of disguising true feelings.

it is often just that^^^, or a slightly clever way of cutting someone down. Instead of calling them stupid to their face, and sounding "mean", we roll our eyes and make a sarcastic over the top statement, and might pretend we're hilarious.

Hey, I do stand up comedy as an avocation. Seriously, I am funny. (Get it?)

But truly, I always have to watch who the target of the joke REALLY is and there are "rules" to it. I know if it's not me or some entity we can all hate (like Congress), it's a lot safer. It's a lot less likely to be nasty.

What made me change? When my XH moved out, my then 7 year old daughter told me that my anger scared her and my sarcasm made her feel confused. THAT was enough for me to change.

I'm still mildly sarcastic - but only in circumstances that are amusing and they are not masks to my feelings. I use it sparingly. A little bit goes a long way.

I'm one of those people who lived in limbo for 2 years until he filed for D. It gave me every opportunity to work on myself and the behaviors that I needed to change to be a happier person. I DB'd my butt off. I don't regret giving him that time because it literally cooled everyone off. But I hated living in limbo. It's not the panacea you might think. My kids were far younger than yours (7 and 4) when their dad moved out. I *needed* to give them a shot of getting their family back.

If you have any compassion for this man, you'll do the work, Will. You hurt him and now he doesn't want you. So be it. He hasn't made that his final word by his actions so use the bought time and just focus on you and those kids.

Total agreement with this^^. Though WW, I appreciate that you know you have gifts, and that you will not always be alone, or feel unloved, etc. I'm glad you are not mired in negative futurizing. But you posted just one or two posts ago that were really brave and deep. Stay on that track.


BTW, I need to say this: I know you aren't 100% responsible for the mess you're in. He's apparently got his own issues and negative traits. I'm sure the list of his transgressions according to you is also there so he doesn't get a free pass.

But since he wants out and you don't, changing how you think, feel and act is now in your court.

Since you are here to work on your m, and HE IS NOT, there is zero value in you wishing he'd change. OR improve. We cannot help you with it. Besides, it's Not a productive use of YOUR time and energy.



In the meantime, I have to agree with Ellie that you need to contact a lawyer. You have a special needs kid to consider and in the very, very near future you are going to have to establish guardianship and make arrangements for HER. With your separation not defined, you need to get that defined and stat.

Legal separation in Colorado means squat. So we didn't do it. However, we hired a mediator to work on the parenting time, and support terms. Then when he filed for D, we converted all our work into the D. The first task our mediator assigned to us was to get a special needs trust set up for our now D16. It took a couple months and about $1000.

Don't see this as an obstacle or a death knell. See it as a safeguard for your family. A document of the terms of engagement going forward. Use it as a means to address the unknowns you fear.

That special needs trust would probably be very smart to do even if you stayed married. You could be both be killed in an accident and she needs to be situated in a way that your boys don't feel it's all up to them.


I wasn't a SAHM because I was always afraid of not having power and a lack of income. (Childhood baggage.) You shouldn't see this as something to fear. If your H died, you'd have to do everything anyway, so take on the task of learning how to manage a household with appreciation and excitement. You'll feel better about you knowing you can do it.

We used to have a saying here way back when. Stop looking at his train wreck and start focusing on cleaning up your own. You've got enough stuff on your plate that requires your focus and all your attention, so get busy.

Just ask BA - nobody likes a complainer.

That doesn't mean we're not here to support you, but you have to put your money where your mouth is.

So I'll say it instead of Linda and I won't feel bad for asking: what ARE the things you know he didn't like in your M? What are the behaviors you demonstrated that made him feel the way he feels now? I'd bring that list into your IC and ask for help in changing the ones that present you in an unflattering light to the world.

Hey, we're all works in process Will. But like BA, I'm a much happier person for being forced to take this route and shed light on some of the personality traits I had that were not conducive to a marriage. Do it for you. Do it for your kids. No matter what happens, you'll be better off having learned the lessons. Trust us on that.

Good luck! And for goodness sake, I hope you're getting some sleep. I know for sure that being sleep deprived certainly contributed to the demise of my own marriage. I don't think either one of us made good decisions in a fog. You've got a tough road with your 15 year old, so hope you take a big e-hug from me.

Take care--

Betsey

Amen.
((( )))