Blowing in the wind....

[RosaLinda]

Forever  "If we don't speak our spouses LL, then why would they want a marriage with us again? Because we're "showing them what they're missing"? Hmmm. I wouldn't count on that working. They're already "done", remember? Withholding their LL could just as easily confirm in their mind all their reasons for bailing on us. Maybe a good last resort technique if you're done, or on your way to D, like RH was when she cut back on H's LL."

This makes a lot of sense to me, FY. I know our spouses are seeking fulfillment of their LL elsewhere (do you think this might be a clue as to why some MLCers have EAs and others PAs?) and are NOT seeking LL from us at all, but agree with you and Wonka that it's a good idea to sneak in a few sincere LL stokes now and again so as to not add fuel to the list-of-why-I-am-done fire. 

Dawn  "IMHO, and how I started detaching before I was "done'', I would not have text H. To me, that is an LBS doing exactly what we have always done and expecting a different result. Also, it is the MLCer seeing that he can expect you to always do the same things. 

I think if they want to bail, we really don't do too much to encourage that, again IMHO. As I began to feel ''done'', I had no need to speak to H who's LL is WOA, but there was no need, he said it wasn't ''my'' words at the time he was interested in any. 

Now that I can ask him some things outright, I have learned that it was better for me, in his opinion, that I didn't LL him because he would have been resentful."

A very different opinion and quite valid also Dawn. I agree that that smothering our MLCer with too much of their LL would be seen as insincere and probably cause resentment. My H has, at different times, told me to stop being condescending when I offered a sincere WOA, andcalso that MY WOA don't mean much because I "have to tell him nice things," he craves them from other women. Ouch. So I have cut way down, especially on the AOS. 

But don't you agree that FY's point is valid and completely withholding LL might just confirm their justification at bailing on us? As SA said, just don't go overboard. 

Rose  "My H's LL is time together......this may be difficult since he won't come anywhere near me or the house. Lol

That's a tough one Rose. Does he have a secondary LL?

Forever  "Which reminds me, I need to pull out my official T2 googles and clipboard, spank wife and take notes on her response."

you better borrow his hard hat too if you intend on trying this one!

[RosaLinda]

Forever  "If we don't speak our spouses LL, then why would they want a marriage with us again? Because we're "showing them what they're missing"? Hmmm. I wouldn't count on that working. They're already "done", remember? Withholding their LL could just as easily confirm in their mind all their reasons for bailing on us. Maybe a good last resort technique if you're done, or on your way to D, like RH was when she cut back on H's LL."

This makes a lot of sense to me, FY. I know our spouses are seeking fulfillment of their LL elsewhere (do you think this might be a clue as to why some MLCers have EAs and others PAs?) and are NOT seeking LL from us at all, but agree with you and Wonka that it's a good idea to sneak in a few sincere LL stokes now and again so as to not add fuel to the list-of-why-I-am-done fire. 

Dawn  "IMHO, and how I started detaching before I was "done'', I would not have text H. To me, that is an LBS doing exactly what we have always done and expecting a different result. Also, it is the MLCer seeing that he can expect you to always do the same things. 

I think if they want to bail, we really don't do too much to encourage that, again IMHO. As I began to feel ''done'', I had no need to speak to H who's LL is WOA, but there was no need, he said it wasn't ''my'' words at the time he was interested in any. 

Now that I can ask him some things outright, I have learned that it was better for me, in his opinion, that I didn't LL him because he would have been resentful."

A very different opinion and quite valid also Dawn. I agree that that smothering our MLCer with too much of their LL would be seen as insincere and probably cause resentment. My H has, at different times, told me to stop being condescending when I offered a sincere WOA, andcalso that MY WOA don't mean much because I "have to tell him nice things," he craves them from other women. Ouch. So I have cut way down, especially on the AOS. 

But don't you agree that FY's point is valid and completely withholding LL might just confirm their justification at bailing on us? As SA said, just don't go overboard. 

Rose  "My H's LL is time together......this may be difficult since he won't come anywhere near me or the house. Lol

That's a tough one Rose. Does he have a secondary LL?

Forever  "Which reminds me, I need to pull out my official T2 googles and clipboard, spank wife and take notes on her response."

you better borrow his hard hat too if you intend on trying this one!

[RosaLinda]

Why did that post twice? Hiccups?

[mizjjd]

Why did that post twice? Hiccups?

Lol, I don't know why, but it's happened to me too.

My thoughts on this debate.

As I see FY's position,

They're already "done", remember? Withholding their LL could just as easily confirm in their mind all their reasons for bailing on us. Maybe a good last resort technique if you're done, or on your way to D, like RH was when she cut back on H's LL."

it seems an assumption that the MLCer hasn't yet made up their mind. So, in an effort to either forestall that decision, or change the weakly made decision, FY suggests LL appetizers. (If I have that wrong I apologize and welcome correction.)

Dawn: Now that I can ask him some things outright, I have learned that it was better for me, in his opinion, that I didn't LL him because he would have been resentful."

Is of the opinion that the MLCer doesn't want and will resent LL from the LBS.

One of the pillars of DBing is NO PURSUIT. So, application of LL needs to be very careful lest the MLCer perceive the behavior as pursuit.

Portia posted once about the difference of lovingly detaching and detaching with love.
(Attention all you "J-go-to-Al-Anoners", I got this from an al-anon website which should make you happy.)

Detachment with love means caring enough about others to allow them to learn from their mistakes. It also means being responsible for our own welfare and making decisions without ulterior motives-the desire to control others.

Before we start doling out the LL, we should examine our motives for so doing. Do we have "expectations"? Maybe not immediate expectations, but eventual expectations. We expect our behaviors to affect the decision making of the MLCer. NO EXPECTATIONS

"Loving" is a two way action. By giving, loving and care taking we bond with another living thing. This seems counter to DETACHMENT, imho.

Further, I think making the life of the MLCer too comfortable allows them to avoid confronting the reality they have created. It sends a message that their behavior will be accommodated and so they have less motive to continue on their journey.

Hi RL! I hope your eye doesn't make you too crazy. I get a headache just thinking about your symptoms!

[reachingHigher]

I really enjoy reading people's opinions! So many good points!

I was pondering my own sitch last night. I think when applying or removing LL's so much of it must be timing. Over the course of roughly 5 years of my H's MLC, what "worked" at some times didnt work at others.

It was the six months of beginning replay that he acted disgusted with my touch, my looks, etc. Once he moved out of the house he changed. About April 2012 we were having a super time together and he said "why weren't you like this all these years?"

So I said some reasons (kids were little and I put all my energy into family, home and school and there was none left for him) but I said "I'm like this now."

Touch was sporadic. But sometimes when he would visit I would touch his arm or hand and he was starving for it even though he resented that connection we had.

Then, yes, I withdrew in December. I was fully accepting we would/could be D and I knew to continue connection through touch would only hurt ME. So that's really why I withdrew.

Now, it flows naturally.

I wish we could all sit around and discuss this stuff!

Linda, hope you're doing well. I, too, like J, shudder at the thought of that eye problem.

[Wonka]

As the saying goes here, each sitch is different.

I cannot imagine WH or Rose or BNR touching their H's or doling out WOAs/AOS for they'd growl loudly and angrily like Mr. Hyde with a spectacular blowback! Whereas, Linda's H is like a itty bitty mite kitten with soft, sharp claws that only leaves a tiny line on your forearm. Which is why I think it is okay for Linda to continue using these actions toward H sparingly.

[kml]

It can be tricky to sneak in the LLs when you're trying not to pursue, but there are ways to do it.

My ex's love languages were quality time and gifts. Since we were still living together and had kids, gifts was easy - I just made sure that I got him exactly what he wanted (in the kids' name and mine) for birthdays etc. Quality time was harder, but I made a big effort to stop multitasking and every time he spoke to me, I stopped and gave him my full attention. Also, instead of maybe sitting in another room if we were doing two different things, I made sure to sit in the same room.

Although we are divorced now, we were reconciled for a number of years, and at the time, those techniques worked. I also mastered the "accidental" touch - squeezing by him in the kitchen, etc.

[wishing, hoping]

As the saying goes here, each sitch is different.

I cannot imagine WH or Rose or BNR touching their H's or doling out WOAs/AOS for they'd growl loudly and angrily like Mr. Hyde with a spectacular blowback! Whereas, Linda's H is like a itty bitty mite kitten with soft, sharp claws that only leaves a tiny line on your forearm. Which is why I think it is okay for Linda to continue using these actions toward H sparingly.

ACK ACK ACK! I would get severely bit!!! LOL! I would need stitches. : )

I honestly am past the point of showing LL. Even though when H is actually speaking decently to me one on one, I make it a point to stop what I am doing and give direct eye contact. I stopped all other actions when it became apparent I was just feeding his ego. I prefer to let him figure what he is missing out on all by himself. I think it will hit him eventually. I won't be around when that happens.

WH

[Portia]

Hey Diamond Diva Princess Rosa,

Don't ever forget that you are a diamond - and you should act like it!

I am so sorry to read about your eye troubles. That has to be incredibly annoying and with surgery coming up so soon, I hope you are taking care of you. I am very sorry that your H is leaving that day for Russia. But no more wasted time on him!

Going to give you a small smack with the pink pool noodle - you mentioned in one of your previous posts which compared you to Laura Munson who simply refused to believe her husband when he said he was leaving. I would bet that most of us spent the first few months feeding that delusion. The thing about Ms. Munson is that her husband went through a barely discernible MLC for less than six months. At six months, I was still in some denial. Part of being as strong as a diamond is learning to accept and work within your reality and to see what IS.

Your reality right now is that your H is willingly travelling to Russia to be with his affair partner. He can easily leave two days later to be with you for your surgery, but he chooses not to do so or at least hasn't done so yet. No matter what you may believe about the woman - your H is an equal and willing participant in this A.

Now I am not at all saying that he won't make his way back to you or that you won't live happily ever after, I am just pointing out the reality of Right Now. He is disrespecting you.

His hook is that he is nice to you once in awhile - but then why wouldn't he be, he has no other place to go and he gets to cake eat in the extreme.

Which all is my way of saying that I absolutely agree with MizJ's post. (Aside: MizJ, love the al-anon reference! )Especially this:

I think making the life of the MLCer too comfortable allows them to avoid confronting the reality they have created. It sends a message that their behavior will be accommodated and so they have less motive to continue on their journey.

Linda, maybe I missed it but did Chuck give you reasons why he would recommend "sample touching"? Your coach knows best but it seems to me that your H has absolutely no incentive to change as it is and now you are being advised to provide his LL. It would seem to me that as long as he is engaged in the A, that it is too early to be progressing to using a LL. FY makes a point, but do not forget, there is no OP in his situation.

Obviously there are many opinions coming your way - give them some thought and act in accordance with your beliefs and be true to you while maintaining your self-respect. H will never respect you if you cannot respect yourself.

Shine On Crazy Diamond!

[RosaLinda]

hi everyone!

Portia, thanks for using the pink pool noodle, it's my favorite color and doesn't hurt as much as the yellow one You are a diamond diva Portia, you are doing so well. Proud of you! I realize that my H is a willing participant in his affair. I believe that both he and RT are using each other for their own nefarious ends. I was pretty convinced that their relationship would fall apart while he is over there, because he is SO sick and so crabby and nasty when he feels like this. He's getting worse rather than better. But I was seriously thinking about it, and RT's goal is to get a green card. I am sure she does not give a fig about whether her intended target-husband is nice or nasty to her. She wants to get married, and get a green card. So I am anticipating that she will overlook any amount of nastiness on his part. I'm sort of sad about this. I have not talked to Chuck about it yet, but depending on how H acts when he gets back, may need to switch things up.

I'm sort of happy that my H is leaving the same day as my surgery. It will sort of be a clean break. We can say goodbye at home and go our separate ways. For any of you whose spouse went on a "trip" with their OP, how did you handle saying goodbye?

Chuck advised me to start to casually touch my H because, while it is NOT his LL, my previous MC had advised me to casually touch H and to make sure that we talked to each other about non-logistical matters at least once a day, and both of those things seemed to help. Chuck said that he had advised casual touching for a couple of his other clients, and it helped them. My H had not said a single word to me for a couple of weeks back then in spring 2010, but since then we have talked every day. But he stopped touching me when he delivered BD2 on April 12th.

My H's LL are WOA and AOS. Those are the ones FY and Wonka recommend I give him in mini doses. Mz. J, about expectations from supplying H's LL, I do it to make him feel better about himself. He is so low and has such low self esteem. I don't expect and sure don't get anything from H from doing this, but it is important to me. Maybe my way of showing him I love him, which you might think is bad. But I really don't expect anything good or bad. And....CONGRATULATIONS on your wonderful new full time job!

Ellie, thanks for describing how you used your H's LL without pursuing. Although my H's is WOA, I think that your idea to stop multitasking and pay close attention while he is talking is really important to my H. One of his complaints about me is that I would read a book or use my laptop while he was watching TV, and he felt disconnected. I am not a TV fan, but now make sure to go into another room to read, and stare at the screen when watching with him.

Wishing, beware of being bitten by your H! Yikes! Good for you for using that full eye contact technique. I think this shows respect, and think that respect is important to all men, no matter what their LL is.

rH, interesting that your H resented your touch during the beginning of his replay, and that he seemed to be "starving" for it even though he resented it. Poor MLCers, so mixed up. I'm glad that while you were preparing to D, you protected yourself by withdrawing touch from him. I wonder why he wanted a hug from you at the same time he was Ding you? I remember you said that he mentioned that your presence was comforting to him in court. That is sort of mind boggling, and must have confused you so much, poor woman. rH you are THE diamond diva! One of those big ones with lots of little ones all around it!