better to love or be loved?

[25yearsmlc]

yes, the detaching is hard. H has moved out, but he will call/text d everyday using my phone. I give her the phone to answer. I could tell h to call on the house phone but I don't.

If this is too hard, then maybe TELL him to call and let it ring twice and hang up, so you don't have to deal with it. You'll then dial for Her, and leave the room.


it is the financial stuff that scares me. its the having to do all the stuff I haven't had to these past 20+ years. like, pay the bills, insurance, car tags etc...Stuff I can do I know, just adds to my daily list- welcome to grown up world I guess. I've had it easy being a SAHM.

I hear you there. But you're right, we have to do it. Like the gazillion of single moms out there...but try to see this as empowering. If he had died, you'd be in the same boat but in a more traumatic way, believe it or not.

This is the big one, and I know you are dealing too... knowing h is with someone else having a good time. doing fun stuff, not a care in the world.


says who? How do you know the OW knows all of his needs and wants? How can she? How do you know he isn't racked with guilt about leaving THREE kids, including an innocent disabled child who will always call him "daddy", or that it's SHAME that makes him not comfortable coming into the house?

He must guess that his relationships with his sons will NEVER be the same again...and every time there is a conflict or wave of guilt, he can look either in the mirror or at OW to blame...how fun is that?

Every time they have a conflict, he'll have second thoughts that are painful. Same goes for every birthday he partly attends or misses, and every holiday...

thousands of songs and fragrances and TV shows and a million different memories are going to resurface IN TIME....

the more you challenge his choices, the more he'll defend them...

so don't bother. Let HIM DISCOVER the realites of the life HE is creating but for God's sake, ask yourself how happy and fun filled YOUR LIFE would be,

if you were doing the same thing...and you might realize that the mind reading and speculation you are doing about HIS life, which is also the wrong focus...

is also NOT even accurate. So it's counter productive on a number of levels.

While the WAS always always will wonder if maybe they could have given their marriage a chance, maybe YOUR CHANCES ARE REAL and would last...

whereas you have no choice.
You can be miserable and bItter or become bEtter.

But the smart aleck talk is usually words of contempt or resentment and they eat away at the partner's self esteem. Don't underestimate that. If you have read the Five Love Languages, as I hope you will if not,

then you'll see he may need "words of affirmation" and that they were lacking in the marriage. It's easy to be mad about what they don't do, often b/c they literally do not know and because they are at their JOBS, which they don't get thanked for b/c we don't see what they are doing in THEIR DAY...and how affectionate were you, outside the bedroom?

And do you now see that every night you were "not in the mood" that he felt rejected? How does that feel to HIM? MOst men don't feel loved when sex is less frequent than they want it to be unless the wife really makes an effort elsewhere...which is usually not happening.

I think you said his work mattered a lot to him, so maybe he needs to be thanked for the years you were a sahm. Many couples cannot afford to do that and your d surely benefitted...as did your boys.

One thing I said to my h, which was ONLY b/c my DB coach had just spoken to me, I admit...

was right after h left. Then our electricity almost got cut off b/c h stopped paying the bills but forgot to mention that to me...

when I told him, his FIRST comment was that he HOPED it would not hurt HIS credit...I assumed he was kidding but now I wonder...

ANYHOW I said "so from now on, I need to pay the bills, right?"

And he said,very angrily, "that's right! So now you can do it like I had to for 25 years and YOU see how it feels!"

And I said, "I know, it IS Stressful, and I want TO THANK YOU FOR PAYING THE BILLS ALL THESE YEARS, B/C IT IS HARD TO DO."

and boy was that a 180 for ME and it so stunned h, that he was silent for what seemed like five minutes, (probably 10 seconds)

Then he said "you're welcome"...

Anyhow, it was a pivotal moment in my life. I finally saw things, for a moment, thru HIS eyes...

Hope that helps.

Meanwhile... I put my kids first. I think ow leaves her kids with her mom so she can be with my h. way to go!

yep, life is not fair. but, I will say, I do know my blessings. I have great kids, great friends, a great family.

i'll say this here. I know I am supposed to focus on me and not h,

CORRECT...and when you follow a good comment with the word, "BUT", you negate what you just said that was constructive. Stop using excuses to make HIM your focus.


but here is my detach struggle...I want h to be a better guy.


meaning what? OH my, please know I mean this all to help you, okay?

But I mean WOW...have you really read the DB books?

Who are you to decide how good a guy HE ought to be?
YOU need to ONLY WORK ON YOU, and btw you have zero control over him. Want to waste more time going in the opposite direction?

In fact, I'm going out on a limb here so put your helmet on...my guess is this feeling that YOU want HIM TO IMPROVE is NOT new.

My gut says it has been shown to him for years...and to your kids. So his ego has been bruised and damaged for a LONG time.

The LAST THING ON EARTH YOU OUGHT TO BE DOING NOW is wishing HE would improve.

You don't have that right. You improve you. Model for HIM that change in an adult can happen.

Because GUESS WHAT?

The only way your h will return to the marriage, will be

because he believes the marriage can be better/different.

That's it. So how is your desire for HIM to improve, helping him believe that can happen? That's more of the same message that he is NOT good enough.

and my guess is that the "smart aleck" way you spoke was a euphemism for saying, you did a lot of undermining or criticizing him.

Your goal ought to be on showing him that YOU can change and be a better wife to him, so that the marriage would in fact be better this time around...IF he'd give it a chance.



I want him to see how great and the joys of family.


The most you can do is model that for him. And applaud loudly for the 1% of things he does that are positive (per my DB coach...this is NOT easy to do. Sometimes it felt 'Mother Teresa hard' but it helps a lot).


he says he is there for kids, but doesn't want to be married.


Ouch...what do you think that means? It's you he is leaving, not them. So the marriage itself, NOT being a dad, was the problem. THANK HIM FOR BEING A GOOD DAD when he is.

Work on you. It's the best chance you have for happiness with your life, and the chance of a reconciliation lies mainly in how much change in YOU that you demonstrate to him...

I know a million times I can't control him. I have to accept.
Thanks for letting me share.

You have to accept HIM but you can work on YOU. Dig deep and do the brave thing, facing your own shortcomings. The worst that can happen is you'll be a greater mother and person, and that ain't so bad. The real journey in life, is an inward one.

What are your SPECIFIC goals? Instead of saying "don't be smart aleck" give yourself a goal of what TO DO.

Such as "compliment h at least once, sincerely, every time we interact."

Down the road, Maybe flirt if you can pull it off OR at least look your absolute best.

Be the woman he fell in love with. Be a woman only a fool would leave.

Good luck.

[25yearsmlc]

having said all that

I also think you need to consult with an attorney. Getting a temporary order of support does not require filing for divorce in most states...if it does, then THINK IT OUT.

If he's giving you more than the L says you'll get later, then keep your cards close to your chest. Listen to your L's advice.

ALSO ALWAYS ALWAYS

keep the financials and legal issues between the lawyers. Do not let him associate you with the unpleasant realities that he has created...

refer him to your lawyer if he begins to escalate things.

Do NOT show him your anger. It does not help you at all.

Do not fuel his negative images of you which will only justify his choice to leave even more.

INSTEAD contrast those negatives with positives...those 180s.;..if you were always late before, start being early or punctual.

Think about three ways you could do that and start today.

[willbwell]

25, thank you for your wise advice and giving me plenty to think about.
I have seen an attorney. I have copies of financials.

h has made no mention of talking again and did not answer my email regarding further discussion of finances.
I will not mind read.

I have read DR, DB and 5LL.I try and validate h. we are cordial and polite to each other. I miss the physical, he gets it elsewhere. that hurts. I miss the attention. those things are hard to replace with something else.
I have my kids and they have me and for that I am so grateful.

I am a good and positive person. I know this. I know my faults. I know where I need to improve. Hurts like hell . could easily turn so bitter. I don't want that. My inner struggle. I do not show my anger.

need to go pray a bit. feeling weary.
I do thank you 25 for spending time with my situation.
I know ultimately, I will be ok.

[willbwell]

just got an email from h. he is proceeding forward. discussed some finances. I feel sick.in one breath he says, want a D, but then asks s16 to go to lunch. Really?
sorry, but lunch or dinner a couple times a month is not ok. Do I say anything? no, because I put kids needs first.
Really, I want to say just leave us alone.
Going for a walk with d. will say nothing to h yet

[willbwell]

venting ahead...disappointment that h doesn't value commitment and family. he wants to have a relationship with kids but doesn't want to do anything in regards to parenting. just wants to buy me out. I'm the hired help.

just let me vent here...DB'ing is for working on me, focusing on me. Is it possible that in reality, it is not something that we did or did not do towards the breakdown of our M, but rather that our spouses are selfish and self-centered?

kids here, have to go . more later

[25yearsmlc]

venting ahead...disappointment that h doesn't value commitment and family. he wants to have a relationship with kids but doesn't want to do anything in regards to parenting. just wants to buy me out. I'm the hired help.

well if this is venting...so be it. I won't argue. I will point out that NOT all venting is productive. For many people, at times, myself included, enables bitterness. Venting negatively can keep people stuck.

So if you don't feel more at peace after venting, then it's not helping...

If it is your belief, I'd say stop mind reading and making yourself feel worse. Just counter productive, and worse.


just let me vent here...DB'ing is for working on me, focusing on me. Is it possible that in reality, it is not something that we did or did not do towards the breakdown of our M, but rather that our spouses are selfish and self-centered?


You want someone to tell you that you played no role in this?

I know the feeling. We are reeling and then, we feel a lot of guilt and regret, and shame.
It can feel so overwhelming that we feel we must turn it outward, and want to blame b/c we cannot handle our own shame and the work we know we ought to do. OR we can block that all out and keep on blaming them entirely.

Amazingly a few people do that here, and keep wanting to do that and eventually they lost posters b/c the continue their victimhood role and change NOTHING b/c their spouse is NOT here working on their m, they are. But they think, I guess, that by blaming the WAS...what? They feel "right"? But not happy...anyhow, I know this is new for you and you're in the first stages.

But deicide. Use this ordeal, and decide

Will you be a BITTER, or BETTER woman?

I won't say that it's all or even mainly his fault, or he's a pig and this "happened to you".

YES, I have seen a few cases where a truly wonderful spouse was deserted by a WAS, who was simply and plainly and totally WRONG. But it's rare.

Besides, In theory, brain tumors might be the reason for their choices, or their lousy diet, or a repressed memory or unresolved child hold issues, or fear of mortality...

We don't and can't KNOW. What do we know?

We KNOW you were Not a flawless wife, and your h felt put down.

What matters NOW? YOU and your work on you, and your kids. So who should you focus on? ONLY on YOU and YOUR KIDS.

i wish I had stopped wondering WHY my h was doing what he was doing or who was truly at fault, a lot sooner than I did.

What a waste of time and energy. The past won't matter if you reconcile. That is why, imo, the words "from this day forward" are in our vows.

You will need to let go of the past and "his wrongs", just as you must hope he lets go of yours...in order to move forward.

You will need to agree on what you two want, "from this day forward", not who did what to whom, first, or worst, etc.

I wish I had more quickly started detaching and putting my energy into creating a new fulfilling life for myself, and indirectly my kids.

When I finally did that, ironically, it's what h noticed...

when I finally just knew I was now a better partner and mother and looked forward to MY NEW life, instead of still harping on how UNFAIR it all was, it got better.

(SIDENOTE: for some perspective, recall that there is food in your refrigerator...

So? Well, recall that you have a refrigerator, with electricity in your shelter, which is a real home, not made of corrugated metal or cardboard.

There will be food in your electric refrigerator tomorrow too.
Or you will drive in your car to a store where there is more food available, and you will buy it and cook it. No one will shoot you or kidnap a child of yours, while you do this task.

No one is shooting at you now or attacking your family for being in the wrong tribe. Your sons are not being recruited to join a rebel army, your daughter is disabled but gets care for herself, and will for life.

No one is forcing you to stop worshipping or begin worshipping their way, No one tells you where to live or what job you must do.

Your h has a job and income, you can drive, your sons are completely healthy and one is attending college soon.
You are an educated literate healthy woman with food and shelter and an income. You have children who love you.

We often forget that the factors above, place you in the top 3.5% of the world in terms of security and prosperity and freedom.

So sure, Life can be unfair. Just look at the Sudan, Somalia, well, that whole continent, China, Russia, Bangladesh, ETC.

Your h may be selfish or self centered. AND you may also have been resentful and critical of him.

So which thing do YOU have any control over?

Don't you want him to have second thoughts and doubts about his choices?

That means your changes have to be real and lasting.
The longer you show consistent change, the more likely he will believe the changes are real and lasting.
Because, to reiterate,

Your h will only come home if/when he believes marriage to you

can be better/different.

YOU MUST SHOW THAT TO HIM...

consistent change + sufficient time = change HE can believe in.
Are you digging deep? What would HE SAY if we asked him why he left?

I asked you some questions and although you said "thanks" and (btw, you're welcome, sincerely) & you sounded thoughtful,
I'm a bit sad to see your next post so quickly turning to blame him again.

What issues do you OWN and wish to change? What are your 180s?
THat must be your focus.

I believe that despite your d's needs, you can do some GAL that is not about earning money but rather, enjoying something. A film class or language or cooking, or a seminar, or JOIN something and meet new people who do NOT know your situation...

We hammer GAL because we know it works. The inertia and depression and obsession about the situation, are usually the hurdles to overcome but you will always be glad you did, once you are out. It does not merely make you happier, which is HUGE. But it makes you more interesting and, yes, appealing. plus you meet new people SO IF you become a single woman again, you'll have a ton more avenues for meeting others.

Can you name two you'll do in the next 5 weeks?

Notice how I derail the route of blaming him?
That's because I spent FAR too much time doing that in my own situation.

So, even if it's "ALL his fault", which we know is not true, you would still have to work on the only person you can have any effect on, which is you.

No more "wishing he'd be a better guy" and skimming over your own issues.

IF and when the time comes, you can figure out if he's the man you want in your life.

I think right now you are score keeping, which I did. I compared MY sacrifices, which I felt were ignored, to his "takings", which I felt HE ignored.

But the thing is, THEY have their own scorecards. And on their scorecard, WE LOSE...

that's why I suggest you drop the scorecard. It simply keeps a record of wrongs and that's not what our job is, nor does it make us happier or our marriages better. It does the opposite.

You can do better than this and your life WILL be better than it is, right now.
kids here, have to go . more later

You can do this WW...your life WILL be better and no matter what you and your h decide, please keep posting.

BTW if your h is at all available to the idea of "divorce counselling" as if you simply want to make this "easier" for all concerned, could you get him to attend Retrovaille?

it's the retreat weekend for marriages in crisis and we got A LOT of help from it. But some couples were there with one partner just checking it off the list to say he had "done everything he could"...

and guess what? On Sunday night, every single couple said they wanted to try again, try harder, use NEW TOOLS for improving their relationship.

3 years 8 months later, 22 of the 25 couples are still married, maybe 21. Not bad, considering how things were when we all attended. Just a thought, or long term goal.

Keep on with the DB work and please read up on Detaching.

AND the 180s need to be specific, and GAL. I swear you won't regret it.

[RosaLinda]

25Years "So which thing do YOU have any control over?

Don't you want him to have second thoughts and doubts about his choices?

That means your changes have to be real and lasting. 
The longer you show consistent change, the more likely he will believe the changes are real and lasting.
Because, to reiterate, 

Your h will only come home if/when he believes ma rriage to youcan be better/different.

YOU MUST SHOW THAT TO HIM..."

Thanks 25yearsMLC, this is great advice. For all of us And thanks for staying with the forum, to help those of us who are still muddling through. 

[willbwell]

I had asked h about Retrovaille, he was not interested. for him he said he felt counseling was a waste of time and money. I still see my IC and my boys(older one more so)have been as well. I wish h would go...His mom was depressed and h didn't like that. didn't see a 'reason' for her to be depressed. h didn't recognize that it is a medical condition.

I have a life outside of my kids and h. Yes, most of my day involves my kids, but I do plenty for myself. I am spiritual. I have great friends, a great family. I do yoga. I volunteer, I know happiness and contentment. I am smart,caring, sexy,and fun. Really h is a fool. I will be someone else's prize.

Thru all this, I have been kind to h. Detaching is hard because I see or hear from or about him everyday thru the contact with my d. I know h is struggling too. I know its his journey and I can't force him.

My 180'S... to listen and validate, instead of talk. h is not much of a talker and I would almost put words in his mouth. I let him lead these conversations now.

I have been confused as to how to be when H comes over. I am cordial, busy. A 180 to me would be to go to my room and close the door and ignore h. This seems so childish to me though....

I try and validate h. we both say please and thank you.I do it more now than in the past, I'd say.

I need more help with 180's....Anybody??

I want to get unstuck. Hard when I still have that hope in my heart. I think it would be easier to take the money and run. I am not getting any younger and eventually, I will want/need companionship in my life. I still want that with h. And although, I know it can be exciting- the dating and flirting, would rather start over with h than someone new.

I know I will be ok. I am a strong independent woman. I've got so many blessings. this is what I try and remember when I feel that bitter, anger creeping in

[willbwell]

Rosalinda, please forgive me and I may get the 2x4, but my h says it was nothing that I did or did not do.
It is just him. He doesn't want to be married anymore There is no list of things he gave me, no complaining.

I know what I did. I was smart aleck. I made fun of his job. I didn't validate him. These are the things I need to improve. the changes I need to make. H does not want to give me the chance. He has checked out.

h wants to move on.
Its not what I want. its not what my kids want.

Get the 2x4 ready because to do opposite of what I do, would to be a sourpuss and do nothing for my home and kids...

I can't even believe I am typing this. I am a smart aleck. I should go back and delete because I don't want to show that side of me...
I've got to lose the smart aleck...my issue. not attractive

[willbwell]

My GAL, I went on meetup.com and joined a women's lunch group and a book club. All new people. no one who knows my situation...

I joined a prayer group, not at my church but a different local. Also new people who don't know my situation.

We are blessed in this country. I know that. I lived in Africa for 2 years so I do have first hand knowledge of just how blessed and how much we take for granted here.

I was resentful and critical of h. it is painful to admit. its ugly. still dealing with that. I get annoyed and become smart aleck. its not attractive. Surely, don't want to go thru life like that...
I've got to shovel out my own crap