In all honesty F, I think you are doing fine and good with the sitch as it stands. You are not allowing any cake eating, you are standing your ground, if and when needed. Why wouldn't you take advantage of any invites from the W, as long as they don't lead to cake eating. I suppose the only thing I could think you could do, would be to knock back the occasional invite. Sorry, cannot make breakfast I have to meet someone or do something, but can meet you at the school at such and such time still. Try and allow her some time to miss you, especially when she wants you. If that makes sense. Again, only you know her so personally. So you need to try and decide if it benefits the long term R prospect.
ME:51 W:46 M:25 S:22, S:20 Divorced 16/9/15 BD 10/12 W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12. Dark since 6/13 I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
Originally Posted By: LTH It does seem that your W is going to need to miss you and understand that things are different now if anything is going to change.
I agree to this and in here is also one of my big problems! I understand she got fed up with me! Coach told me that she properly moved out in anger and I understand this as well. She got enough and I pushed her away. This was prior to BD. Few weeks after BD I changed totally and started working 180s, PMA and all of that and I have done this for five months. I can without any doubt say that if we didn’t have a history she would be attracted towards me today.
F, has it crossed your constant wheel-turning brain, that you did a lot of the pushing away after the BD? Do you know why she got fed up? I'm not talking about anything before BD, but afterwards, you pushed and kept pushing. We tried to tell you to back off and that you were pursuing, but you would say you were "trying". You're a nice guy and I don't want this to sound harshly, but honestly, you are still pursuing to a point. You need to forget that 3 - 1 rule of yours. Do not initiate any contact that is not an emergency.
LTH is 100% correct. Your W needs to miss you. Miss you really badly! The two of you will always be connected, so it would be rather difficult to go completely dark on her. But I'm not talking dark, I'm talking about not initiating any contact with her.
You say you can't detach b/c you still love her (or words similar to those). You don't have to stop loving in order to detach. You've been given information and you are a smart enough person to read about it. Let me put it this way. (I'm saying this softly, even if you can't hear my voice.) If you want to detach bad enough.....you'll do it. And you will love still love her.
This happens to men all the time. They make the same mistakes you made pre-BD. Then you panic at the realization you're losing her. The reason you can't detach is b/c you are still scared to death of living with that loss.
You kept thinking your stitch was different b/c your W wasn't being the b!tch that you read about in other threads. She didn't have to be, as LTH pointed out, you have made things easy. Not that you wanted the break-up, but you made it easy by not fighting and standing in her way. Which, of course, you really couldn't do much else.
You really have no doubts that she would be attracted to you today.....if not for the history? My, but that almost sounds like a confident man! So why the fear? Yes, history can be held against the LBH, but it can also be a plus for the LBH. She's the mother of your kids, after all. I remember how you didn't understand why she was leaving b/c you had such a great R. That has to count for something. Besides, you've heard about women changing their minds!
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But if she is stuck prior to BD this will be almost impossible to R.
Hogwash! Stop giving her excuses. Your are your own worst enemy. If you do what we have preached to you all this time, (need I repeat it again), she can become unstuck whenever she decides she's ready to give the R another chance.
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On July 23. I gave things a last shot and got this from her:
By "a last shot" you mean you initiated a R talk, and/or pursued her. See, still pushing.
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We have been talking about this over and over I have been withholding myself so much for the last months. This has been coming for so long and you didn’t see. It is not fair that you tell me you feel cheated because you didn’t get the chance. Funny enough you are not angry in the mornings anymore IDLY
What does the IDLY stand for? I do love you or I don't love you? I'll take a guess. Look, she was trying to be nice as long as she was living in the same house with you. She probably didn't want any fighting and wanted to get out being "friends". But you kept pushing.
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You have been pursuing me for sex – I don’t believe how you have gotten through these months
July 23rd? Was that the last shot you were talking about?
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I have given you everything you wanted This already started when before D4 was born. You have gotten it your way since BD
What does she mean by given you everything you wanted? I understand what she means in the second sentence (which is another reason you shouldn't have pursued sex). What exactly does she mean in the third sentence? If she's referring to you standing up and not letting her use you......then, good.
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She is in the fog and this is not something she will miss.
Are you referring to sex?
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So how do I make her miss me?
Don't make me come through this screen.
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Can I do anything but focus on me, GAL and detach because that’s what I am doing.
You stop playing "family" with her, that's how.
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Should I address her anger at some point?
No, not unless she unleashes it on you in a disrespectful manner. Otherwise, you have to let her deal with it and get through it in the way she decides. Don't try to decide for her.
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For now I feel I shouldn’t address anything at all and just let her be!
Absolutely!! You must leave her alone and stop trying to "be there for her". I know that goes against your feelings, but that is what works. For her to experience what it's like to not have you in her life.
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I don’t believe she is cakeeating at the moment.
Whenever she can call on you to help her with........anything, it is cake-eating. Calling to chat, or asking you to come help screw in a light bulb, or keep the kids while she does something else.....whatever her requests are for your help. But the number one way of cake-eating for the WAS is having "family" time together. She left that option, remember? Once a week, are you kidding? And don't let her (and neither should you) use the excuse that it would be good for the kids. Both sides are often guilty of using that one, but reality needs to set in as quick as possible. Those family times would immediately stop the minute another person entered the picture anyway. So why let the children think it would always be that way? I hope I answered your question about if you need to do it.
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I will do all the good I can for the children but doing good for one should not hurt another (to much). I don’t know if this makes sense and would really like your comments. (It feels like W doesn’t realize that D will have impacts on the children!)
Yes, very good, I like it. And you're right, your W doesn't, or won't, recognize the fact D harms children. That fantasy fog helps her believe they will be fine as long as they have both of you.
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How and when should I pull back?
Be unavailable by phone. Let it go to VM or TM. That keeps her from getting too chatty. If it has something important about the kids, and if she is asking a direct question....then give a two or three word sentence. But for the most part, you can text back with a "K". But don't respond immediately, or if she doesn't ask a question. I've known some couples who never spoke or saw each other after the D and they had children. This is not what you want. But you are the Chatty-Cathy doll! I know! You need to create some kind of a shift to adjust to a new connection with each other. You want to have a friend--ly R with her, but sometimes there has to be a break in order to build a bridge, KWIM? You have to stop filling that role of H for her and allow her to make it on her own. Stand back and allow her to fail......or succeed at being a single mom. She chose it, now let (or make) her live it.
Don't go inside her house when you pick-up or deliver the kids. Don't agree to go with her to anything. No family events. Just don't be available for her in any way for now. I know it sounds terribly cold to hear it, but if she keeps having you at her convenience, she will not be able to progress to the place she needs to be in order to come out of the fog.
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I do not feel I am being a doormat. I am still working on my values and boundaries and I do try to stick firmly with these.
That's good.
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Sandi, you told me many times in the beginning that there was no magic-word that would fix this. I looked but I am not doing that anymore. I am working me. Off course I look towards W but I mind my own business and me and I do not try to adjust the me towards her – anymore! So what is left is the hope and the patience.
Yes, hope and patience. Hope....while you go on living. Patience.....b/c it may take her two years before she comes out of this. And I'm not trying to kill your hope by telling you this, but I want you to realize what could be ahead.
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How do I earn respect? How do I go from respect towards feel in love? How do I show the manliness you talk about? How do I attract her from here? Do you believe coach is right about the anger that W feels?
Oh wow! Well, you have a good idea on the respect part. A woman wants a man who is inwardly strong and works hard to provide for his family. She wants a man with integrity, loyalty, honor, and a good leader. She wants a man who will stand up to her, and remind her, in a Rhett Butler way, she's dealing with a "man" and not a jackass. A man who takes nothing off her, but would defend her to his death....and she has no doubt of his love for her. She wants a man who is passionate, and can stir the passion in her. But, I think I may be getting off the subject a bit....
It is kind of hard to tell a man how to display manliness that women are attracted to. My H can cook and keep house when he has too, however, he looks manly while he's doing it. It's more about not be a wimp and acting clingy and needy. I think ambition is attractive, as long as it's not sand castles and he's dealing with reality. I think laziness and some other unlikable qualities is far from attractive, but goodness, look at the books that's been written on the subject of attraction and what women like.
Have to stop for now.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I have decided to go LRT now. My next post will be an answer and some questions for Sandi2 and from thereon I am as dark as possible – for me and for the sit!
I haven’t initiated contact to W for three days. We have spoken since she has been in my home moving some of her things. When she did this two days ago I told her to leave her key and she did. Yesterday D4 got stung by a bee or wasp on the tongue and this needed to be addressed since W got the info. She called me up and we talked very briefly. At that time I told her that her stuff has to be gone in two weeks. I have invited around 20 guys to a boys-day at my home in three weeks and I want her out. She agreed to this.
XW1 has been very communication and yesterday she went completely ballistic. She invited me to join her and S10 on a short skiing trip right after new-year. I believe she is just taking advantage of the situation and that she only wants S10 to have us both around him now that this is possible – but still it is a peculiar situation. I said thank you and that I would consider this. We also – on S10s initiative – are going together to a movie on Monday.
ADVICE??? WILL THIS WORK AGAINST MY GOAL OF R?
My GAL is going great IMHO. Never done that much. I am meeting new people and enjoying myself doing this. Fixing my home and GAL are major for me these weeks. My business situation and medical issues are unchanged and since I can’t do that much until the end of august I just leave them be for now.
I feel good in general but W is constantly on my mind! I do not work against this since I believe only time will change this and at the same time I don’t feel sad or sorry – it is more the feeling of wondering about why I let this happen that hits me. I had a session at my shrink yesterday and addressed two issues. Why I let this happen and how to get the changes in me to sink all the way in. It was a good session but it should have lasted a day and not just an hour. I am getting closer to the answers but still have a lifetime of work that I would like to do on me and my living. This keeps me going and since I now realize my own changes I feel confident, busy and good.
Me:44 W:43 D7, D5 (S11 from other R)
T: 8y - not M ILYB: 8. Mar 2013 W moved: 1. Aug 2013 LRT: 20. Aug 2013 _______________________________ Do or do not – there’s no try.
You and your wise post have kept my head spinning but I have reached a conclusion and if you will back me up on this one I will go all the way with it!
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
F, has it crossed your constant wheel-turning brain, that you did a lot of the pushing away after the BD? Do you know why she got fed up? I'm not talking about anything before BD, but afterwards, you pushed and kept pushing. We tried to tell you to back off and that you were pursuing, but you would say you were "trying". You're a nice guy and I don't want this to sound harshly, but honestly, you are still pursuing to a point.
I see I have pursued but for the last months the pursuing has been for me! I needed to feel that I had given things a shot! I do get your point! I don’t believe that I have pursued her daily or even weekly but rather in certain situations. I have followed my DB-coaches advice and this could come out as pursuing. I have had doubts about this touching-advice for so long but everybody has told me to go with it! The above is not a defense it is just to give you my point of view and I definitely see that I have done a lot more pursuing than LRT suggests. I will never look at your texting as harsh – to me it is caring and LBHs (like me!) needs to rough words to comprehend and even then we don’t.
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
You really have no doubts that she would be attracted to you today.....if not for the history? My, but that almost sounds like a confident man! So why the fear? Yes, history can be held against the LBH, but it can also be a plus for the LBH. She's the mother of your kids, after all.
No doubts! And yes: My confidence is back! What I fear is to make mistakes in all of this. I want a shot at R badly and therefore I want to do what’s right! I am realizing that I have to do good for me first and I am doing this. This is also what gave me my confidence back.
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I remember how you didn't understand why she was leaving b/c you had such a great R. That has to count for something. Besides, you've heard about women changing their minds!
When we met! The last months or years have been rough and ending with me withdrawing prior to BD. Nope, never heard of a woman changing her mind ILU, IDLU, D, R … and then all over again – firm as a rock!
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What does the IDLY stand for? I do love you or I don't love you? I'll take a guess. Look, she was trying to be nice as long as she was living in the same house with you. She probably didn't want any fighting and wanted to get out being "friends".
I agree and also knew this when I initiated. I do think I even posted this before I initiated but I needed to do this for me. When I look back at this in years to come I want to be sure that I gave her every chance possible. I know this properly isn’t wise – also knew this when I did it.
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What does she mean by given you everything you wanted? I understand what she means in the second sentence (which is another reason you shouldn't have pursued sex). What exactly does she mean in the third sentence? If she's referring to you standing up and not letting her use you......then, good.
I haven’t pursued sex after BD even once. I haven’t tried to even kiss her. This was prior to BD. I pursued her then and I believe her statement refers to that and how I have been able to live without sex for five months. I believe she is referring to me standing up! I have done this every time she touched a boundary of mine and quite firmly!
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Are you referring to sex?
Nope, I was referring to our R in general and the statements I got on 23 July.
CAKEEATING I haven’t helped her! I did once help her shortly with her new budget but realized that this was wrong. Otherwise I haven’t done anything for her but one. Playing family! See, I didn’t realize this was cake-eating. In fact I thought I was doing the right thing but I do get you just never looked at it this way. I agree on your statements about this!
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Yes, hope and patience. Hope....while you go on living. Patience.....b/c it may take her two years before she comes out of this. And I'm not trying to kill your hope by telling you this, but I want you to realize what could be ahead.
I do realize this and at the same time there is nothing I can be sure of. I also realize that this goes both ways! I will keep on working me and keep on developing me, my values, my boundaries, my GAL and at the same time I will realize that she can meet OM tomorrow or I can meet OW. My goal will be R until something else tells me to go in another direction to pursue happiness for myself and my children. You can’t kill my hope – only I can do that! But you can make me realize what lies ahead. I believe I already do!
Well, I will change my path but for me to be successful in doing this I need strict goals and rules of conduct and I hope you will help me on this one:
GOALS: Keep, update and evaluate a list of goals and 180s Continue journaling in here Get my business situation and thereby income stabilized. Get my medical issue solved and possible go through surgery Fix my home Work my 180s Try to follow thoughts – being more spontaneous.
KIDS When kids are here – Focus on them, by: No work when they are awake No long phonecalls Doing at least one thing out of the house with them, when they are here for weekends. Involving them in daily life like cooking, cleaning etc. and accepting that this will be on their timeframe
ME When alone focus on me by: GAL Work my goals Exercize Sleep
W: I won’t initiate any contact unless urgent matters regarding children. I will refuse any invitation except Christmas, birthdays, first school day and likewise. I won’t answer her calls and since I don’t have and don’t want VM –she will just have to text or mail me. I won’t enter her home If she asks direct questions I will answer them in short sentences I will ask her to get the rest of her belongings out of MY house I will still be kind, smiling and nice (but short in words) when we talk If W at some point asks me something I won’t answer until I am sure that my answer is one that doesn’t regard my wish for R I won’t accept the key to her house that she wants me to have and I want her key to my house back. I will remove her pictures except the one on the children’s family wall.
QUESTIONS: Any adding’s, comments or suggestions to the list above.
1/ Prior to BD I withdrew and went silent. Do you see this as a problem or do you believe that she has seen the changes? MWD seems to suggest not going dark/dim if this is an issue and I believe it is!
2/ What do I answer if she ask: Why don’t you call back? Why don’t you want to talk? Why don’t you accept my invitations?….and likewise. I see this coming and would like to be prepared! Should I just go with: Well, I don’t feel like doing it and if she ask why just back off immediately and tell her that this is just how I feel.
3/ I also believe she will involve others when I go dark/dim and that I might get the same questions from her family or mutual friends. How should I handle myself and how should I answer if this happens?
4/ What should I do about FB. I don’t use FB more than once or twice a month but should I defriend her and if so what about her family and mutual friends?
5/ How should I handle myself around XW1 – please read my previous post about her acting’s.
6/ How do I get looks and words like Rhett Butler Just kidding! I have made major changes already and feel good. I am not Rhett but F will have to do for the moment.
Sandi – Thanks a million once again! I hope you will help me in the time to come.
F
Me:44 W:43 D7, D5 (S11 from other R)
T: 8y - not M ILYB: 8. Mar 2013 W moved: 1. Aug 2013 LRT: 20. Aug 2013 _______________________________ Do or do not – there’s no try.
"XW1 has been very communication and yesterday she went completely ballistic. She invited me to join her and S10 on a short skiing trip right after new-year. I believe she is just taking advantage of the situation and that she only wants S10 to have us both around him now that this is possible – but still it is a peculiar situation. I said thank you and that I would consider this. We also – on S10s initiative – are going together to a movie on Monday."
You asked if this would work against your goal to R. Are you referring to the ski trip or all this communication from XW1? Don't you find it rather odd that your XW has become so chummy? Has she ever invited you on a trip after the D and you and present W were together?
"I see I have pursued but for the last months the pursuing has been for me! I needed to feel that I had given things a shot! I do get your point! I don’t believe that I have pursued her daily or even weekly but rather in certain situations"
I had to smile a sad little smile, b/c of the difference in men & women's thinking. Of course the pursuing was for you! Isn't it the nature of men? That is why it is so easy to fall back into pursuing behaviors, even when the H knows nothing else to do. Isn't that what you men see as working the relationship? It is how you guys see "taking a shot at it". That is why men feel they are doing nothing when we tell them to stop pursuing. And it really didn't matter that you weren't doing it every day or in certain situations. It was still pursuing in the eyes of your WAW. However, now you have decided to stop all pursuing, and that is a good decision.
"I have followed my DB-coaches advice and this could come out as pursuing. I have had doubts about this touching-advice for so long but everybody has told me to go with it!"
I never understood the coaches advice, but I try not to go directly against what they say. If I recall, your W's LL was PT, and she responded positively, instead of jerking away. So, look at it this way, you followed coach's advice and gave the PT and tried to make the R what you thought your W wanted. But she stuck with her decision to leave you, take the kids, and breakup the family. So now, things need to take a sharp turn.
"What I fear is to make mistakes in all of this. I want a shot at R badly and therefore I want to do what’s right! I am realizing that I have to do good for me first and I am doing this. This is also what gave me my confidence back. "
You are getting the shot right now! You just can't see it b/c neither of you have completed necessary steps in order for a R to be completed. We are going to work on those steps, right?
Remember how different men & women are in relationships. He doesn't listen until she drops the bomb b/c she feels done........and what does he do? He is suddenly wide awake and committed. It seems rather difficult for him to get the timing right. So I understand you don't want to mess up the chance to reconcile, and that is why I hope we can help you see what you do during this time of separation will affect how quickly she moves back. And.....if you have no doubt she's attracted to you, it may be very soon indeed. From what I have read over the years, "most" WAW's aren't feeling the attraction.
"I haven’t pursued sex after BD even once. I haven’t tried to even kiss her. This was prior to BD. I pursued her then and I believe her statement refers to that and how I have been able to live without sex for five months."
Well, I guess I got confused over the wording in her letter and the pre-bomb & post-BD. She is nice, she likes the PT, and is attracted to you, but writes this message that sounds pretty clear she isn't interested. Maybe I can't keep up with what's going on.
"Playing family! See, I didn’t realize this was cake-eating. In fact I thought I was doing the right thing but I do get you just never looked at it this way."
Oh yeah, and men get sucked into the WAW telling them they want to be best friends and continue to do things together "for the children". It is one of the worst traps for a LBH'S who is grasping at any straw, and thinking he can be her friend and that will lead to a reconciliation. I have not seen it happen like that yet! I won't get into all the reasons right now, but you don't want to be her BFF hanging around like girl friends.
I've got to finish up for tonight b/c my hands are really hurting. Besides, I think I am saying stuff I've already been over in the last post. think your goals are fine. I will try to answer your questions tomorrow.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Prior to BD I withdrew and went silent. Do you see this as a problem or do you believe that she has seen the changes? MWD seems to suggest not going dark/dim if this is an issue and I believe it is!"
You are in a new position now. You showed her your changes, before she left but she still chose to leave and not work on the R. From this point on, you must look at it with that mindset.
"What do I answer if she ask: Why don’t you call back? Why don’t you want to talk? Why don’t you accept my invitations?….and likewise. I see this coming and would like to be prepared! Should I just go with: Well, I don’t feel like doing it and if she ask why just back off immediately and tell her that this is just how I feel."
Don't make up excuses. Don't tell her you don't feel like it. You aim this at her choice. This is the result of her choices. Simlply tell her that she chose to leave the R and along with her leaving...came a different R for the two of you. She should have realized things would be different. If she continues to ask about it, then tell her that You will continue to co-parent but you will not be available for a buddy-buddy R with her. You will be friendly, but she rejected the R she had with you, so why should you want to be her BFF?
Don't fear her getting mad, b/c she probably will, but when you do tell her this...you pick up the reigns to what you want in a future R with her. Understand? She won't like it and may spew, but that is okay. You don't have to stand there and listen.
The point is to shift gears so she can get to the place that she misses you as a H and lover. She can make friends with anyone, but if you try to be her BFF you will be in limbo with her forever. Just don't get into that trap.
"I also believe she will involve others when I go dark/dim and that I might get the same questions from her family or mutual friends. How should I handle myself and how should I answer if this happens?"
That is another trap. Don't discuss it with anyone. If you must give an answer, simply say, "She made the choice to leave me, not the other way around. Now I move forward.". Then end the conversation right there. Refuse to listen or answer any more. She may try to have someone to intervene for her, but don't play that game.
"What should I do about FB. I don’t use FB more than once or twice a month but should I defriend her and if so what about her family and mutual friends?"
Defriend her! Be prepared for her not to like it, but so what? This is part of the plan. It hits her up beside the head that you don't have any interest to be a buddy of hers. You wanted a R that was set apart from friendship. You won't settle for being her buddy. (This is what I'm telling you. ). But if she asks, just reply with, "What did you expect after you left?". Just don't get into a conversation (which you tend to want to do.)
"How should I handle myself around XW1 – please read my previous post about her acting’s. "
I don't think you need to get chummy with her either. You are still vulnerable to a point, and it seems she is taking advantage of it. I think you need to be very, very careful of XW1.....if you want to R with your present W. I don't trust a females who do what she's doing.
I would turn down invitations that included either of your XW's with their children. You can tell XW1 that you need to not be involved in family-style togetherness for a good while. You don't have to give her a reason. You do need time, and you sure don't need an XW confusing issues for you.
I think you need to stay away from your present W's relatives for a while. It helps keep down confusion, confronting nosy questions, etc.
Make your own plans for the kids to have their birthday parties with at your house without the W. She can have them a party at her place. These are some of those hard bridges to cross, but it will hit her with the reality of her choice to breakup the family. Same at Christmastime. Very hard to think about right now, and don't bring it up to her, but just know that you will need to deal with it. No more shared family events with her. No more shared time with the kids. This needs to hit her right between the eyes.
The goal is not about upsetting her, or making yourself look mean. The goal is to push reality of her choice to live a separated life from you and sharing a home where she could experience all the shared times. Holidays are not shared between couples who are D. You want her to see how the future will be without you being there with her.
So, make plans for the kids to celebrate holidays apart from their mom. It may have to be on a different calandar date, but you still have the celebration. Does that make sense?
When you do see her or speak with her, you continue to be polite and even "warmly" if possible, but you do not allow her to take advantage. You are friendly, but not friends. This gap needs to happen in order for her to see the reality of what she has done. She thought you would continue to be her buddy while she pursued a different life. I don't think she ever thought you would cut her out of your life. And, that is exactly what she needs to think. "F doesn't want to be with me". "What have I done?".
Of course her emotions will run every which way before she starts considering moving back. Long before that happens, she will start taking relationship temperature checks just to assure herself that she still has you in her back pocket, emotionally. But, that is a ways off.
This will not be the easiest thing you've had to do, but I believe you will be a little surprised to discover the strength you will gain from this plan. Keep your eyes on the goal.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
"She should have realized things would be different. If she continues to ask about it, then tell her that You will continue to co-parent but you will not be available for a buddy-buddy R with her. You will be friendly, but she rejected the R she had with you, so why should you want to be her BFF?" Fully agree with sandi2 here. I do not want to be buddies with the W. I want to work on our relationship/marriage. I want to be best friends and lovers as part of being married. Not friends because we have divorced/separated. F, I think everything above is the way you need to go. Your W does need to see what the other side of the fence is like, greener or browner grass? It may be green for a few months, but then if it isn't watered or looked after, it goes brown. One of the quotes I heard over the last few months was: "The grass is always greener on the other side, as it is fertilized with a lot of b**lsh*t." Take care F and keep the PMA.
ME:51 W:46 M:25 S:22, S:20 Divorced 16/9/15 BD 10/12 W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12. Dark since 6/13 I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
It's more about not be a wimp and acting clingy and needy. I think ambition is attractive, as long as it's not sand castles and he's dealing with reality. I think laziness and some other unlikable qualities is far from attractive, but goodness, look at the books that's been written on the subject of attraction and what women like. 
(Well put!) 