Emotional Connection and Attraction

[MrBond]

IMHO, I've seen it work both ways. I've seen the LBS detach and separate from the WAS and have the WAS both come back and also some thought they liked being single and free and hooked up with someone else.

The biggest thing that happens when a WAS decides to come back is exactly that. They make a conscience choice. They make the choice to do whatever it takes to work on the M. Fear of losing the LBS may open the door but it's not enough to sustain the relationship in the long run.

You are going to have to see how it feels in your sitch. The fact that your W told you honestly how she felt is a big thing. It shows that she's actually searching for an answer for why she feels so empty inside. The problem is that she's constantly looking for EXTERNAL things to make her feel whole when in reality, SHE herself is the only one that can fill that void. It's a choice. If she actually stopped and turned around to see you and your family and actually appreciated what she has, she will see that her life is very rich. But she's still looking elsewhere.

[BC39]

Thanks Bond, so helpful as usual. This ^^^ pretty much sums up my thoughts and sitch.

Fear of losing the LBS may open the door but it's not enough to sustain the relationship in the long run.

This is exactly how I currently feel.

The fact that your W told you honestly how she felt is a big thing. It shows that she's actually searching for an answer for why she feels so empty inside. The problem is that she's constantly looking for EXTERNAL things to make her feel whole when in reality, SHE herself is the only one that can fill that void. It's a choice. If she actually stopped and turned around to see you and your family and actually appreciated what she has, she will see that her life is very rich. But she's still looking elsewhere.

Exactly.

What would you do in my sitch?

What would your daily interactions look like?

How would you try to incite some passion or fill the void she's missing?

[AnotherStander]

I should have separated when I was where you are, did not, and have paid the price. I believe we would have been back together now with my W committed and happier than she is now. It would have been the quickest and best path and is not giving up

Early in my sitch I read DR and Love Must Be Tough and I followed the advice in both and told my W that I wanted her to stay home and work on the M, but if she felt like S is what she needed to be happy then I wouldn't stand in her way. And she did leave just under 3 months after BD. It's been nearly a year since S and she is more set on D than ever before. I don't really see any hope for our M. That said, I do agree that in the end, S helped ME recover from BD much faster than if she had stayed home. I think we both would have been miserable for months and months had she stayed home. So S didn't save our M, but I think it did help both of us to move on.

[Accuray]

IMHO, I've seen it work both ways. I've seen the LBS detach and separate from the WAS and have the WAS both come back and also some thought they liked being single and free and hooked up with someone else.

Totally agree with this! Once you open the door, either they'll walk back through it, or they won't!

My argument is that if they are in the second category where they like being single and free and hooking up with someone else, you wouldn't have kept them anyway, so dropping the rope sooner just shortens your suffering waiting for the inevitable. If they are in the first category and likely to return, dropping the rope sooner shortens your wait.

What would you do in my sitch?

I would pursue a "controlled separation". There is a book out there that will guide you through this. A controlled separation basically means that you're going to work together to take a break. The "controlled" part means that it's for a pre-defined amount of time, and you agree how you will conduct yourself while separated. i.e. you agree on whether you will date others or not, how you will handle finances, how you will handle custody, how you will handle contact between the two of you -- you lay it all out up-front. This greatly reduces the uncertainty and therefore the anxiety. At the end of the controlled separation, you reassess and decide on your path forward. Simple as that. To make it work, you really have to treat it like a separation, however, and live your own life.

What would your daily interactions look like?

I would strive to be less emotionally available until I had a reciprocal commitment. I would be friendly, pleasant, funny, but not emotionally intimate and the opposite of needy. I would not pursue AT ALL.

How would you try to incite some passion or fill the void she's missing?

Can't. That's a recipe for self-torture.

LONG TERM you could embrace the MMSLP type philosophy, start working out religiously and develop a killer physique, dress better, etc. which should improve your self confidence. Would that work? MAYBE, it might make no difference at all, but it's certainly not a quick turnaround, it could take a couple years.

================================================================

Here is something very useful that I read -- "in love" feelings are based in fear. It is the fear that provides the high, just like extreme sports give you an adrenaline rush.

When you're dating, you don't know if the person will call you back, you don't know what they're thinking, you don't know what they think of you, you don't know if they will reciprocate your advances. You don't know the other person's full story and there could be some horrible skeleton lurking in the closet that you haven't come across yet. All these things are risky, and the risk imparts fear of failure. The fear fuels the desire, and the reward is the sweetest because of the fear that was overcome -- i.e. high risk = high reward.

That's why affairs can be so powerful emotionally -- the risk and the secrecy are even higher than regular dating, it's intoxicating.

Now look at "long term husband":

Does she know what you think of her? Yes
Does she know if you'll call her back? Yes
Does she know if her advances will be reciprocated? Yes
Does she believe there are things about you to discover? No

So where is the fear? Where is the risk? There isn't any.

What can you do about that? Not much.

You're not a date, you're not an affair partner, you're a long term husband, so you CANNOT incite the passion that those other types of players will incite.

Unless you separate....

Now she doesn't know what you're going to do, if you're going to come back, or if you won't, and the fear and uncertainty can come back, igniting the passion.

OR, to Mr. Bond's point, she can decide she doesn't care what you do or if you come back, in which case, I would argue, you're done either way.

Acc

[Accuray]

One last thought to ponder -- do you "crave" something that you can have immediately, that is always available to you, or do you "crave" something you have to work to get, and even if you do the work you may not get it. Which scenario inspires craving?

How could you possibly keep "craving" alive in a long term marriage?

What fuels most long term marriages is the memory of the craving, which can be re-ignited after arguments, after long periods of separation, etc., but it's a residual effect.

[etc]

OMG, I need to read these last two posts Accuray every day. This is exactly why I'm stuck as the pursuer. How will I ever break this cycle? I'm stuck now as the nice guy. Time to seriously detach.

ETC

[etc]

Also, the hardest thing about DBing is becoming unavailable without engaging in an EA of our own. It seems the WAS wants us to not be available to desire us again. When they ask about our whereabouts, we can lie or be vague on the details. But vagueness about details seems to annoy them if they've asked. Or I guess we can just focus on not being available so they never have the chance to ask. Am I making this too complicated?

ETC

[BC39]

I'm overwhelmed and confused.

I understand everything your saying in theory but my emotions may be blocking rationale.... because all I think about at the moment is my W just said her current perception of our biggest problems are

1) all we have is surface conversation (emotional connection)

and because of that (amongst other things) there's no passion.

So instead of trying "fix" the surface convo (by having more meaningful conversations) I should be doing more of the same?

She changed her tune pretty quickly during that talk from "I hate talking about this" to "I'm so glad we're talking about this and it makes me feel better". Then we went home had S and shared some intimacy.....should I not be doing more of that for a while?

Its only been 2 months since she pulled back and has been "struggling". Everything was going very well up to that point. I can't help but feel its premature to separate.

Again, I believe everything your telling me and I'm probably leaving out many important points, but this seems like something I should be contemplating after she's confirmed "she hasn't felt like trying" for longer than 2 months.

She has been much better since we talked. Again, I understand she could be giving me just enough to keep me around.

The timing just doesn't seem right. I'm having a hard time explaining why I think that is. I'm always afraid I'm not painting the proper picture to get the proper advice. At the same time I don't want to be a fool in denial.

I need to go over your posts for a couple more days to fully take them in, I don't want to dismiss anything.

I probably should have waited to post a reply but I figure I'll just get my thoughts out there despite how mixed up they may be and how much of your message I'm probably missing.

My current thinking is parallel to Bonds last post.

[BC39]

test

[Accuray]

You know your sitch the best and I welcome your disagreement -- I only see your sitch through a key hole.

I guess my summary is that unilateral need-meeting on your part will not incite passion. I think your W's A + B = C is wrong.

If passion is the cure she's looking for, seeing you happy without her and wondering if you need her at all is how "craving" would be 're-established. As you have identified that is high stakes poker.

Connection is wonderful and necessary -- there's a chance that establishing deep connection on an ongoing basis will make W forget about craving and affair style attraction, but that only works if it's a two way street, if she's as invested in meeting your needs as you are in hers. Otherwise you are the pursuer, she is the distanced,