Things starting in right direction, NEED TIPS!

[PJS]

I fear though that she will continue with her ways that don't build trust in me. Like going out alone, and making new single male friends. I just don't believe someone who respects their M and Spouse does those things. And I know that she would not approve if the tables were turned. Part of me just wants to give her a taste of the crap she gives me. I hope I can fight those urges and she changes some of her ways as well.

My W is extremely jealous and was upset if any female made contact with me. However, she can do what she wants and i have to, as she always put it "deal with it".

We both have to fight the tit for tat urges. I don't want to do something that is going to set w off just for the sake of doing it. I don't want to set her off at all because I love and respect her.

Marriage is about submitting one's self for the good of both. My wife didn't agree because she said "I put more into this than I got out." So did I. But I wanted (and still want) a better US than me or her. The US is what carries you thru the really traumatic times in life. Her history is to run when it gets too tough. I tend to fight it out until the war is lost.

I'd let the guy friend die a natural death. Pray on it but if there is any doubt let it die.

Your wife is testing you. She has doubts and is seeing how you react. My wife tests me. I don't test her and won't. I think about it sometimes, but won't.

I'm sure you are the one withdrawing. Right now, you "got what you wanted". That is your wife came home. Now what? It isn't like it was before. It is different. How do you react? You need to think about it and to think about things men withdraw to "their caves".

At least you are seeing it. Don't withdraw too much because W will leave again. Don't smoother or w will leave again. It must be a fine line to walk.

The old "happy and confident" thing is all you can probably do. For me, I've been using exercise to get out the frustration. I talk to maybe 1 or 2 people about it now and of course pray, which helps the most.

Like I told you awhile ago. You are in uncharted waters for me to give you advice. Take what I say with a small grain of salt. If it makes sense, pray on it. If it doesn't throw it away.

I'm an engineer and one of the first things we were taught is "If it looks like a bad design, it probably is." Same goes with advice.

Take Care and God Bless,

Patrick

[talitsa]

Well, I actually see some very positive things in the "uncomfortable evening".

You will have to deal with the whole issue of boundaries with friends of the opposite gender...but...she let you in. She is not uncomfortable with you meeting and even getting to know her friends, that is a GOOD thing!

The talk you had with her GF...I think that was great too. You being able to openly communicate these things to a third person was a way to look at your issues with a little bit of detachment. It was sortof like what you would experience going to an MC...except the GF took the place of the MC...and you were giving the GF DBing information. I would think it that was very cool if I were your W--much less, she got important information about you!

[stopping_the_cycle]

Reuben-

I don't have a lot of witty words to offer today. The one thing that jumped out in my mind is this:

You mention the trust issue a lot. (this is understandable)
However, what I did notice is that W was encouraging and thought maybe it would be helpful for you to talk with the guy freind. I am not suggesting that you run and talk to him, form a life long freindship or anything. But, if she is encouraging it, she must not have too much to hide. In my oppinion if there was something she didn't want you to know you would hear something like, "I don't know why you would even think about talking to him about things, I came home to you. Can't you just take things for what they are and leave the past alone?"

This would be a typical WAS come back. The fact that she didn't do this tells me she is TRYING to earn your trust.

I may be totaly off base with this and other more experienced DB'rs may tell you I am off my rocker. I just wanted to give my 2 cents on what my thoughts were.

Sorry if it confused you!

Have a great Sunday.

[cruiserrg]

You will have to deal with the whole issue of boundaries with friends of the opposite gender...but...she let you in. She is not uncomfortable with you meeting and even getting to know her friends, that is a GOOD thing!

Tal, thanks for stopping by. Thanks for this tip. I look back on this now and I can see that.

The talk you had with her GF...I think that was great too. You being able to openly communicate these things to a third person was a way to look at your issues with a little bit of detachment. It was sortof like what you would experience going to an MC...except the GF took the place of the MC...and you were giving the GF DBing information. I would think it that was very cool if I were your W--much less, she got important information about you!

Again thank you so much for the insight. Her GF is actually studying to be a counselor so she has a lot of insight. I think my W took the conversation well, she hasn't backed off at all from what I can tell. I did mention the converstion and she and I both agreed it was good. She did even mention during the conversation and afterward she likes to hear me give R advice like that.

---

You mention the trust issue a lot. (this is understandable)
However, what I did notice is that W was encouraging and thought maybe it would be helpful for you to talk with the guy freind. I am not suggesting that you run and talk to him, form a life long freindship or anything. But, if she is encouraging it, she must not have too much to hide. In my oppinion if there was something she didn't want you to know you would hear something like, "I don't know why you would even think about talking to him about things, I came home to you. Can't you just take things for what they are and leave the past alone?"

This would be a typical WAS come back. The fact that she didn't do this tells me she is TRYING to earn your trust.

I may be totaly off base with this and other more experienced DB'rs may tell you I am off my rocker. I just wanted to give my 2 cents on what my thoughts were.

Rachelle,

Thank you so much for this insight, I NEVER saw this before or even looked at it this way. I think you may be correct. She did go to meet a friend and hang out where she stayed while seperated. Its a duplez house and she knows both guy tenants. As we were heading to the concert, I asked if the GuyF was there, she said he was sleeping. Then she asked why I always have to bring him up. I said refering to the night before if he mentioned anything about getting together. I do think she can read from me that it does bother me when she hangs out there. She seemed to understand when I answered that way. I asked if she had a problem with me talking with him. She replied "my ears will be ringing". I said would it seem like snooping to you, or do you not want me to talk with him. She said no, that there is nothing to hide. I said I just didn't want you to get the wrong idea, because I felt that he wanted to talk to me more than I did him. She agreed with this and said she had no problem with it.

Update for today.

Well as planned we headed out to eat and to a concert. Before my W went to meet a GF where she stayed while sep, we talked about when we should leave to make it there on time. Then as leaving she was flirting with me a bit and suggested posibility of ML when we got home.

Well before it was time I planned for a short nap and have her wake me up when she got there (about 10 min.). Well my W didn't show up until about 20-30 before we HAD to leave. We did make it on time to everything, but dinner was rushed. I was a bit upset by it, but didn't mention it.

We had good conversation on the way, and she mentioned talking with her GF about me, and even shared some pics of me with her that kinda embarass me. She told me her and GF agree I look great now I have lost weight, there were specifics comments as well. All good.

The dinner was great, and we were talking about the walls. Chinese resturant with oriental decor. We talked about our future new home and how we want to do the bedroom and master bath in an asian theme. The future talk was nice. Another note is that I have heard my W bring up our future talks with her friend once and a while too. Great signs.

The concert was great, and I even held her up to see the stage a few time (MS makes it hard for her to stand). We swayed to the sangs a few times, kissed a few time and had a blast.

Drive home was quiet. I was nervious because she said one of her GF was supposed to call after work (11:00). I of course thought the worse and worried about being ditched. I didn't say anything, but was quiet (tho I didn't have a lot to say anyway). Her GF never called (YEAH).

We relaxed at home, and shared ice cream on the couch (W fed me like she and I like to so). We went to bed and she snuggled up with me and was gently massaging me. SHe did get more intamate with her touches, but fell asleep on me before it went anywhere. I was a bit bothered by it, but fell asleep on my own not saying anything.

This morining, she got up to do some things and then came back to bed and snuggled again, only this time without her PJs. She didn't really initiate, but I gentely touched her for a long time but avoid certain areas. It developed from there into ML . It was wonderful. We were worn out afterward. So much so I had to take over making breakfast so my W could relax.

She did mention to me 2 things. She was hoping the touches wouldn't last so long, and that she gets really tired when we go that long. Not bragging, but because of her MS and loss of sensitivity I have had to learn and focus on going a long time. Now I almost go so long that she wears out. She gets to a point of several Os into a Constant Multiple O. She in fact asked me to hurry up and finish since it was taking so long. I was able then to do so after she told me she had been pleasured enough.

We have talked a bit over the last several days about our sexual relationship so that is good. I did tell her she can tell me to finish quicker once she has reached her point of satisfaction, so I hope she tells me more. Its good we are commicating about it more, plus the fact we are doing it again.

Later on in the day she has been nice and affectionate. Her kisses have been more passionate, (as I said I like it when we are). She is being responsive to what we discuss and I can tell its genuine.

Things keep going good, I just have to keep focused on the positive and not let the triggers get me down. I do hope to get to boundries at some point, but I still feels its too soon. She is going to start going to church with me for Lent (this is BIG for me) and I hope with that, the IC and MC, and our retrouvaille retreat that the boundries may develop on thier own. They may have even started as she has talked about meeting with more married couples or dating couples when going out. Its not soon enough for me, but I am going with it until after our retreat and Easter.

Thanks for the advice everyone, keep coming with the suggestions and support, its really helping me.

[TKKC1]

Reuben,

Thanks again for stopping by my post. As far as your sitch goes, I don't know what you would get out of meeting with guy friend. I believe that any insight you can get from him you should be able to get from your W, unless there is something he knows that your W is not comfortable telling you. If that is the case, perhaps it is better to wait for your W to feel that the time is right to share this info. with you. Third party conversations concern me because you really can't tell the context of how things were stated (too much room for misinterpretation).

I also would not feel comfortable being in a social sitch and not having my W introduce me properly. I don't really understand this unless your W may not have shared with all her friends that you guys are back together. The WAW's always have to deal with the fact that they now have to defend the fact that they "changed their mind" to all those they spoke about the sitch with, particularly if they painted an ugly picture of you. This emotional investment they made in their decision to leave takes some time to reconcile with the intellectual decision they have made to stay with their spouses. That may be why she is not so eager to do the proper thing and introduce you appropriately to her friends.

I also like the fact that you laid it on the line by saying it was your W's decision if she wanted to be the one you loved. I wish I could get to that point but the time has not presented itself (still no R talk). It is a very direct way of letting her know that you are extremely confident that if it is not her it will be someone else. I am sure that had to make her really think and it also sets an expectation that she needs to be fully committed to working on the M and it can no longer just be you that is making changes.

As far as your progress goes, it sounds like things are moving ahead just fine. I know you mentioned that people would be envious of my sitch, but yours is absolutely wonderful!

[cruiserrg]

TKKC1,

Thanks for stopping by. I tend to have a bit of the same feelings as you and Patrick, seems the guys say stay away from guyF while the women think it may be good. Who knows, but after last night I think my W wants me to talk with him.

UPDATE: PLEAE I NEED HELP WITH THIS!

Well when I posted yesterday, my W went to run a few errands and was going to be home before dinner if not earlier. As you guessed it was after we planned to start dinner that she called me (while I was starting to prepair dinner)

She said "I am sorry as I know you probably have dinner started or on the table, but I need your help. I am at the bar in my van and I am to F-ed up to drive. Can you come and help me." She also had trouble with an MS sitch. I said I will be there right away and I thanked her for calling.

When I got there she was just sitting in her van. She said "I love you so much, I'm sorry but I need help". She asked me to sit with her in the van and she asked about what we should do. I said I would drive her home and we would leave her van there and get in the morning. She indicated about her driving and me following, and I said gently no I will bring you home and get her van tomorrow.

I helped her to my car as she could barely walk. She said a lot of "I'm Sorry" "I am embaraced" "I feel stupid" and "I feel stupid for calling you". I replied compassionately to each of these and thanked her for calling me. I said I am always there to help.

She asked how this made me feel. I said "I appreciated that she called me, but I felt sad for her that she was hurting herself". I never once got angry, only understanding and compassion in my voice. She asked about what I meant by huritng herself. I said "I can tell you aren't happy and don't feel good about yourself right now, your hurting and I wish you wouldn't hurt yourself". She agreed that she wasn't happy and didn't like what had happened.

She also said that she tried to call other friends. The two she mentioned where guy Fs. She said the both told her to call me. She said the guy F that she lived with and wants to talk said "Call Reuben, he loves you more than anything. Reuben is a great man, and every woman needs a Reuben. I really want to get to know him. Just call him and he will help you." She said he really wants to hang out with me because he can tell I am a wonderful person. She mentioned this a couple of times last night.

I got her home and had to help her into and around the house as she could barely walk. I finished dinner as she took care of her MS accident. We ate dinner and she continued to the pitty party and saying how sorry she was and how stupid she felt.

Two things she said got me thinking a bit. One she said she would have something to talk about in C (she has IC today along with us having MC today). The second was that she talked about feeling like I deserve a better W. I told her that I wanted to be with her, but I hoped that someday she could feel like I deserved her. She inquired a bit, and I mentioned again about my fear of being a WAS because of needs not always being met. She said she feels like she is losing me more everyday. I told her that it wasn't true. I said that most of the things she does makes me feel loved. I could tell she understood me saying most indicated there was still work to do.

The rest of the night went well. I told her to remind me to say my rosary, and she actually asked to say it with me. We prayed the rosary together, I said it outloud as she follwed along (she hasn't done it in a long time). I also said most of my usual prayer at each mystery..."Thank you Lord for hearing my prayer, Thank you for blessing our M, and continue to bless out M. Help W and I soften our hearts toward each other, help us break down the walls between us, and help us find the strength to reconsile our M. Lord help us deal with our fears about the future of our M, and show us that through you Lord our M can be happy, loving, and pleasing to you 'til death do us part. Amen" I finished with a healing prayer for my W MS, and to have God help us be less selfish and more loving toward eachother.

My W said afterward it was the most beautiful prayer she has ever heard, and said it was perfect. It felt really good and was the first time I have felt us become more spiritually connected in a while.

She again snuggled up with me in bed and we fell asleep.

The thing I need help with from everyone is how to handle piecing with an alcoholic. She can't see this, but over the last few weeks her drinking is the thing that is being destructive to our M. I can see this clearly now after last night. I hope she talks with her C about it today (I will probably drop her off to get her van right before her IC). I also will start to pray that she asks for my support to deal with her alcoholism, and that she starts to come out of her denial. I mostly don't know what to say or do. I know if I get angry it won't help, and last night I was just supportive and helped.

Please anyone who has pieced their M back with an alcoholic or is currently, I need some insight and sitches to read. Resources dealing with this specifically from a DB and M positive perspective would really help.

TIA

[marc_d]

Reuben,
I cant offer you any help on the alcaholism, but I think its a very positive thing that she doenst want to be the way she is and she still expresses to you how she is afraid to lose you. She really wants it to work and I think once her self esteem can be brought back, everything will be much smoother.

I thought it was just amazing how she prayed with you last night. She seems so emotional and scared so keep up the good work and be supportive just like you have been doing. Make sure she never feels as if she is a burden on you. Best of luck to you, but I dont think you need it. I think with time, God will help you.

[TKKC1]

Reuben,

If you really believe that your W has a problem with alcohol there are several things you can do. First of all, as you probably know, until your W admits she has a problem it will be very difficult for you to help her. (Very equivalent to trying to talk sense to a WAS) Most times, it takes the alcoholic to hit "rock bottom" before they reach out for help. While on the way to reaching rock bottom, the alcoholic and their loved one's lives can be torn apart in every way imaginable. This is something you want to avoid if at all possible. Also, in the process, much of the progress you two have made can be quickly undone.

Secondly, my recommendation would be to find an Al-Anon group and get involved in their meetings. The advice you receive about dealing with this sitch will be invaluable. You may also try and convince your W to attend an open AA meeting with you. This would be a great start as well.

You also have to be concerned with the fragility of your current R at this time. Repairing your M is an enormous emotional drain and adding this additional element into the mix will definitely make you and W's healing process more complex. For many alcoholics, the fear of losing their spouse is not enough of a motivator to address their disease, so I would not recommend that approach.

You have made much progress and I will continue to pray for you that things continue to improve on all fronts.

Be well,
TKKC1

[cruiserrg]

TKKC1,

Thanks for the reply. I am personally not going to approach this yet, and probably won't until my W comes to me seeking help. I think in some ways she might be starting to realize how its affecting her life. I don't for certain I would say she is an alcoholic, but she has been drinking quite often.

It was interesting yesterday during MC. We first talked about how things were going and W and I agreed they have been going good. MC asked about our communication, and we both said we thought it was going better. My W brought up the discussion with her GF on Friday (the one asking for my advice on her sitch). My W said she loved it, and felt her GF and I were having most of the conversation and she just listened in. Then W explained about her guy F that stopped by and how we met. She told MC he thinks highly of me and wants to talk with me. I said again I thought he was seeking my advice in his life as well. My W agreed, and said that he told her how good of a guy he thinks I am and that every woman wants "a Reuben". MC agreed.

MC asked her what it is about me that makes me desirable. She listed off about 15-20 things and hugged me and kissed me right in session. It felt wonderful, and I thanked her. MC was impressed, and also said that we are getting to where others are seeking us out to be taught about Rs, especially me. MC said that is really good.

W then got on the subject about how she can do stupid things sometimes. (I can't remember how it came up). She went into detail about how I had to come and pick her up because she was drunk. She kinda denied how bad she was, and I pointed out that she could barely walk, and she didn't remember this. MC said that most people don't perceive how they are when drink.

MC then went on in detail about alcoholism, drinking, and the effect on people and their lives for the rest of the session. It must have been 30 minutes of this alone. Most of the discussion was between MC and my W. I kinda nodded and listened in, only interjecting an experience or two from my life with drinking.

I learned a lot, and my W did also. He did tell us that to see if you are an alcoholic to try going out and stopping after 2 drinks, if you can't you have a problem. He left it at that, but I asked for clarification if this was just a night or more than that. He said every night you go out. He explained there are times (say for example a wedding party) where its OK to chose going in to get drunk, but you shouldn't get drunk after going in to have just 2. He said to plan that so that you can be responsible.

The other interesting thing things MC said was first that alcohol is a primary drug and the liver will stop all other drugs from going through the system. With my W he said all drug for MS will stop until alcohol has gone through or will be rushed through. Also he mentioned that the #1 killer for alcoholics is lung cancer. He said since alcohol is a primary drug it even stops the body from dealing with the tar and nicotine, until the alcohol has gone through the system. Until then the tar and nicotine just sit in the lungs and eat aways at them. My W responded "great give my H another reason not to want me, and just want a D." I reassured her, and asked if I have said anything about her smoking or drinking, and she said now and that it helps that I don't nag her.

Later in the evening I asked what she thought about MC, and she said it went well and we agreed we learned a lot. I asked her if she thought her going out having drinks what affecting us in any way. She said she just thought it only did on Sunday when I had to get her. I told her I felt differently and reminded her about forgetting plans we made, or forgetting to call me. She looked at me understandingly and kinda nodded her head in agreement. (I mentioned this because MC brought up the fact some people look at alcoholism and its symptoms as either medical or problems caused in their lives, I feel she mainly has the later).

I feel it went real well, but I agreed with my W it went on for sometime. We talked a little more about it, and she told me she wants me to come with her more when she goes out. We also agreed it either of us wants to drink more than 2 that we will agree before hand and designate one to drive and try to always go together if we want to have more and get drunk.

Not sure its the right approach, but I think I am going to go with it for now, and see how her drinking develops. I hope that by having me along more I will be able to truly gage how much its affecting her. It is also great that she is talking with me about it, feels comfortable enough with me to want me with her, and she is opening up a lot more about her feelings and struggles.

She said another rosary with me last night, and I helped her through some grieving about her mother. She also opened up about her struggling with her MS and help to listen, and also cheer her up after she got her tears out about her mother and MS. She really hasn't opened up to me about her MS much, so this is a good step forward.

I feel good about where we are at, and I think time will heal my w, esp. with her IC. I hope that then the drinks won't be needed as much and she can start being happier with life and with me.

God is with me and I see him working in my life, I will pray that he does the same for everyone else here. Thanks.

[marc_d]

Thanks for stopping by my thread! you had good advice as always! Anyways, I think things are very positive for you and it sounds like everything went well in your session. I think its such a big move for her to ask you to come out more often with her. Dont take this for granted! I feel that you are handling everything just right and you are in my prayers.