Completely lost

[Delboy]

Hi GM, just to say about 4 months after my wife left us, my Mum met MIL across the street. And MIL just said "It Happens" and walked on.

She is quite right a lot of sh1t "happens" with her family!

Love

Delboy

[MrBond]

"It was probably wrong on my part to solicit an apology from someone who isn't genuinely sorry. I will leave it to you to grapple with those demons. I don't want those negative feelings to be part of my life anymore. I've said what I needed to, I know that I have consistently done the right thing, and I forgive you."

Actually this doesn't mirror my thoughts because what you wrote it still says "I'm right and you're wrong". That's not what forgiveness is about. It's understanding that while you don't necessarily agree on a person's actions, you agree that they have THE RIGHT to those actions.

Your response sounded like you were telling your W how much better you are than her. And that is not part of the process.

[Raine]

I totally agree with Bond. Anything that could be genuine comes across as passive aggressive, because you are throwing a ton of negative in there. It doesn't sound like forgiveness; it sounds like superiority and you pity her with your forgiveness. It doesn't sound like you care, rather you are washing your hands of her.

[greymeadow]

I have to respectfully disagree MrBond, forgiveness does not mean saying someone has "the right" to certain actions. That would mean condoning those actions which should never be expected of someone who has been victimized. Is a victim who forgives a rapist ever expected to say that the rapist had "the right to those actions"? Of course not - that would be ludicrous. Forgiveness is meant to release the injured party from feelings of negativity and resentment, not to condone the actions that caused harm.

Likewise Raine, forgiveness does not mean that the victimized party needs to care about the perpetrator. Again, to use the terrible example of a rape victim who does not know their assailant but forgives them - they do not form a care-based relationship with the rapist. It is, as you said, more about "washing their hands of it" or more accurately, moving forward and leaving the associated negativity behind. As such, I no longer have a care-based relationship with my STBXW. I am forgiving her for me, not for her - that does not mean saying that her actions were anything other than undeniably wrong.

I always refer back to this Mayo Clinic definition of forgiveness which I've found very helpful:

"Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life."

On Friday we go to court; a sad end to a long chapter of my life. I will never really understand what happened but I will move forward in a new life and I will find happiness. While I have not entirely gotten over the pain of being betrayed and abandoned, it gets easier every day to move into a place of peace.
____________________________
"In the midst of winter,
I found there was, within me,
an invincible summer."
-- Albert Camus

Me:39 WAW:38
M:9 T:19, No Kids
EA/PA with co-worker:9/24/12, ILYBINILWY, S:9/25/12
EA/PA ongoing, MC 9/12-12/12
D: 9/13/13

[MrBond]

"I have to respectfully disagree MrBond, forgiveness does not mean saying someone has "the right" to certain actions. That would mean condoning those actions which should never be expected of someone who has been victimized. Is a victim who forgives a rapist ever expected to say that the rapist had "the right to those actions"? Of course not - that would be ludicrous. Forgiveness is meant to release the injured party from feelings of negativity and resentment, not to condone the actions that caused harm. "

First off, we're not talking about anything as serious as rape. And second, everyone has the "right" to do what they choose to do. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the action itself isn't ethical or non-ethical.

As a LBS you had the right to try to save your M. Your W had a right not to. Doesn't make either one wrong and the other correct. It comes down to who you are, the individual. Anyway it's a moot point in your case if you can't forgive her anyway.

[greymeadow]

"First off, we're not talking about anything as serious as rape. And second, everyone has the "right" to do what they choose to do. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the action itself isn't ethical or non-ethical."

You don't get to judge the seriousness of the trauma experiences by another. And where do you draw that line between what sort of abuse someone has the "right" to inflict on another? I was completely broadsided, betrayed, emotionally traumatized, and had my life torn apart. I was severely depressed, suicidal, suffered from PTSD, and was medicated and hospitalized. But by your account someone had a "right" to do that to me? NOBODY has the "right" to abuse another being - emotionally, physically, or otherwise. Period.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. The notion that "everyone has the right to do what they choose to do" even when those actions inflict trauma on another being is just plain dangerous rhetoric.

____________________________
"In the midst of winter,
I found there was, within me,
an invincible summer."
-- Albert Camus

Me:39 WAW:38
M:9 T:19, No Kids
EA/PA with co-worker:9/24/12, ILYBINILWY, S:9/25/12
EA/PA ongoing, MC 9/12-12/12
D: 9/13/13

[Raine]

Likewise Raine, forgiveness does not mean that the victimized party needs to care about the perpetrator. Again, to use the terrible example of a rape victim who does not know their assailant but forgives them - they do not form a care-based relationship with the rapist. It is, as you said, more about "washing their hands of it" or more accurately, moving forward and leaving the associated negativity behind. As such, I no longer have a care-based relationship with my STBXW. I am forgiving her for me, not for her - that does not mean saying that her actions were anything other than undeniably wrong.

Forgiveness is at the level you determine for you, but from what I read of what you said, it did not sound like forgiveness to me, by whatever definition you want to put to it. It does not sound like peace. It sounds like the negativity is there, not left behind. I would hope you would view your STBXW as more than the level of a rapist and there would be some compassion there.

So whether or not forgiveness is there on whatever level, eh, doesn't change what I felt about what you said. It was passive aggressive. You sounded like you felt superiority to her. And no it did not sound like you cared about her. So sure you can say you forgive or not forgive or hold onto negative feelings towards her or not. It's all just a way to excuse and justify in my mind. I don't set the bare minimum bar for myself and feel justified in a definition and then stop when I reach it. It's about you being in a good place and being happy, and if you can do that feeling like a victimized party that has washed his hands of a rapist, then go for it.

But here is the thing. You don't get to judge how serious the trauma was to her that caused her to take whatever action she did. This works both ways. Something was wrong there. And doesn't matter if you disagree, just as you and Bond disagree. To her, something was wrong. To her, she could feel even more victimized and traumatized than you do. You don't get to judge that. I don't think you realize that what you experienced as a victim very likely parallels what she experienced too.

Because take a good look at what you're saying. You are acting like your wife premeditated and intended to hurt you, like a psychopath. And you have every right to think what you may, but that means so does she. Maybe to her you are the psychopath and she had to do whatever she could to get away.

Why is it we think that we can compare and contrast sin and wrong and somehow that makes us perfect? "If he has sinned at a much worse level than I did, then I am justified." Sin is sin. And no one is perfect. Are you really going to be the first to cast a stone?

So yes you can justify that you have forgiven based on the definition. But what I would then ask is, have you done everything you can? Have you done enough to not look back and have regrets about how you handled one of the most difficult times of your life? Did you do everything you could to not hurt others, as you now know what it feels like to be incredible hurt. Did you make amends for your wrongs? Did you come out of this a stronger, better person? And you don't need to justify it to me or anyone. Justify it to yourself and continue to ask, "But could I have done more? Is there still more I can do? What kind of person will this make me going forward? Do I like that person? What should I change?"

[greymeadow]

"Something was wrong there. And doesn't matter if you disagree, just as you and Bond disagree. To her, something was wrong. To her, she could feel even more victimized and traumatized than you do. You don't get to judge that. I don't think you realize that what you experienced as a victim very likely parallels what she experienced too."

And just how is it that you have such an amazing degree of insight into a 20-year relationship that you know nothing about? Why is it that people so commonly want to blame the victim? Maybe it is more comfortable to believe that there must have been something the victimized person did to deserve what happened. Maybe that makes people feel like the universe is just and that they are less likely to be broadsided by undeserved tragedy. I was by all accounts an exemplary husband... in fact, she told me so even after her infidelity. Friends and family concur. I was the guy who, when she spilled a gallon of paint in her car and I was in bed sick, dragged myself out of bed to spend hours cleaning it. I was the guy who, when she said she had a bad day at work surprised her with a picnic by the lake. These were things that happened WHILE she was cheating in the weeks leading up to her leaving. No arguments, no contention, no signs, no nothing.

I initially came here looking for answers, and like most, hoping to find examples of couples who survived to bolster my own disbelief regarding what was happening. Then, when I didn't find that, I promised myself that I'd keep posting my entire experience no matter what happened so that the next person like me would be able to potentially gain some insight.

I'm done here. I hope other people going through betrayal and abandonment will find a more supportive environment elsewhere.

____________________________
"In the midst of winter,
I found there was, within me,
an invincible summer."
-- Albert Camus

Me:39 WAW:38
M:9 T:19, No Kids
EA/PA with co-worker:9/24/12, ILYBINILWY, S:9/25/12
EA/PA ongoing, MC 9/12-12/12
D: 9/13/13

[MrBond]

I think you're missing the point what everyone was saying.

"And just how is it that you have such an amazing degree of insight into a 20-year relationship that you know nothing about?"

We don't need insight and aren't taking sides. That's your own hurt feelings talking. But there's an old saying..."you can never slice anything so thin that it doesn't have two sides".

What your W did wasn't right. But she had her own reasons. Just as much as you have your own reasons for believing the way you do. Coming to terms with that and understanding your W's POV is how you start to turn things around.

If you do leave, that's a shame. But there is a way to salvage your relationship that's easy to see. You are wrong when you say that you aren't supported here. Dead wrong.

[MrBond]

"I was completely broadsided, betrayed, emotionally traumatized, and had my life torn apart. I was severely depressed, suicidal, suffered from PTSD, and was medicated and hospitalized. But by your account someone had a "right" to do that to me? "

Oh and to clarify. You can add this list to many people on this board. This has happened to so many people you wouldn't believe it. The problem is that you don't realize that she didn't "do" those things to you. Those feelings were created by yourself. Sure her actions were a trigger, but how you react to those actions are your responsibility.

Ask anyone on this board if they have ever felt the way you described above. You're not alone. In fact, some have had it worse. I've seen people get physically attacked, thrown in jail, had their children taken away from them, accused of sexual assault with their kids, etc.

So don't think that we don't know what you're going through. You have a choice to get help for your sitch. If you want to give up, then that's up to YOU not a fault of the board.