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#237235 02/04/04 03:44 PM
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Hey Hairdog,
Just catching up on your situation.

I agree with much of what Aquarian has to say about the 180 bit and not walking away from the discussion.

I do think that what you wrote here
Quote:

I walked out, because I was about to say a lot of things I would later regret, such as, “it’s not a duty, but that really says a lot about your mind set” and “what do you mean we’ll ‘go back’ to your being bitchy all the time?”



is probably not how you want to say what you're feeling. What you have here seems more designed to hurt her than to communicate with her. Stay in the fight, but stay in it to communicate your feelings to her, not make her feel bad. So what can you say that communicates what YOU feel when she says it is a "duty?" What can you say that communicates that her behavior is unpleasant a great deal of the time whether you bring up sex or not and that you'd like to know what is causing it? What can you say that keeps the exchange a communication exchange rather than becoming a verbal fist fight?

As for any behavior that is reminiscent of adolescence (eye-rolling, disgusted sighing, etc.), knock it off! If your W were here I'd be saying all this to her too, but she's not. You're the one who is going to have to start the ball rolling toward adult communication. You can do it. Stop yourself from saying things designed to hurt her, but don't stop yourself from constructively communicating what you are thinking and feeling.

Gotta get back to work.

Best, MPT

#237236 02/04/04 07:16 PM
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sat567 Offline OP
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Thanks Aquarian and MPT.

I think I could have had the kids scrub and wax the floor, work on the shower door with bleach and a tooth brush, repaint the walls, install a new tub, etc., and she still would find something wrong. The 180 you mention is how I usually respond to her comments...yes yes yes, I'll take care of it. I'm thinking that I should tell her that if she doesn't like the details, then she should take care of them. I want to explain to her that the kids and I just do not see the world the way she does, by inspecting every crack and corner for signs of bacteria.

And I am the guy that gets home from work at 4:30pm, does laundry, dusts, makes dinner, cleans up after dinner, and then finally gets to sit down about 8:30 or so, unless, of course, the kids have concerts or other events to attend or participate in, and then I don't get to sit down until later. I am not the beer guzzlin' couch potato that men are portrayed as on TV.

You're right about me speaking my mind in a constructive way. My tongue is too sore because I bite it all the time.

And MPT, as for adolescent things like eye-rolling, I may do these...without even thinking about it. I will work on not reacting negatively to her comments. It is so hard to do sometimes. My blood pressure goes up and I just want to say to her, "I am a great husband! I love you! I don't feel loved by you! So what if there is grunge in the corners of the shower door? Clean it! Don't complain about it. Kind of like when I masturbate...I just take care of my sexual urge myself instead of expecting you to take care of it!"

Okay. Done venting.

#237237 02/04/04 07:23 PM
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Hi, hairdog

I am curious, answer only if you like.

Why is there seemingly such a large inequity in your relationship?

It always piques my curiosity to see a disproportionate balance of power/fear in any relationship. It also rarely seems to work for both spouses.

-NOPkins-


I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.

-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
#237238 02/04/04 07:29 PM
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sat567 Offline OP
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Nopkins:
I wish I knew the answer to that. It didn't seem to start out that way. How did things get out of hand? Maybe because I kind of let her take things over, didn't really protest, then, when I wasn't happy with the way things were going, I had problems confronting her. As I've mentioned before, I have a knack for picking independent-minded, strong-willed women.

#237239 02/04/04 07:59 PM
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Quote:

does laundry, dusts, makes dinner, cleans up after dinner, and then finally gets to sit down about 8:30 or so



What's left for HER to do? Get your D to bed? Is she a high needs toddler?

I personally think that you've been taking on more and more in the hopes that she'd 'reward' you but unfortunately she's just enjoying it all and pushing for even more... and you try to avoid the confrontation because of the fact that sex was the underlying goal.
Quote:

I kind of let her take things over, didn't really protest, then, when I wasn't happy with the way things were going, I had problems confronting her.



What? The finances? I'm kinda confused. You said earlier somewhere that she tends to run the household... but this sounds like YOU do! OK, you know what? This is just my .2 but I'm curious. How was your relationship with your mother? Did you struggle to get her affection or for some reason, you never measured up to her expectations? The more I read, the more your W sounds like your mother. Am I way off?


Pam
#237240 02/04/04 08:20 PM
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Well, she apparently spends some time in the morning dusting and vacuuming, and does some cleaning on the weekends. Our D is a toddler, but I don't think her needs are any higher than any other normal toddler.

As for hoping for the "reward", this may be true, but no "reward", even in the form of more affection, is forthcoming. Which is one reason why I kind of want to stop going out of my way cleaning. I'm thinking that doing her laundry is something I can stop. Maybe even cooking for her.

She runs the financial part of the household, regarding paying bills and such. I tried to do that but kind of screwed it up. I'm not complaining about the way she does the finances. What I am complaining about is that she has dictated what we do (or don't do) in our marriage bed, and I am tired of that, and want it to change. The first thing I wanted to change was her understanding of the importance of sex for me. To that end, I presented her with the SSM book last weekend. As noted before, she has yet to pick it up, got very upset when I suggested she read it, and I've been asked to "lay off" the issue.

Regarding my relationship with my mother, and whether my W is my mother, I don't think there's a lot going on there, although my W sometimes treats me like a child. I didn't have a lot of conflict with my mom, was the youngest child, and got plenty of attention, because, of course, I was the cutest and smartest one.

#237241 02/04/04 08:55 PM
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Quote:

I was the cutest and smartest one.



I wish your assertiveness (to your W) was as great as your sense of humor.

Yes, she does tend to treat you like a child, but why is that? Looking in from the outside, you're allowing it. You said yourself, you're a great husband and father... who deserves some love and affection. Stand your ground this time. Don't let her bully you into laying low again for her comfort! She's not going to "get it" as long as you keep allowing her to get comfortable and you continue biting your tongue.


Pam
#237242 02/04/04 09:16 PM
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Quote:

I'm thinking that I should tell her that if she doesn't like the details, then she should take care of them. I want to explain to her that the kids and I just do not see the world the way she does, by inspecting every crack and corner for signs of bacteria.



Do it! Matter-of-factly and confidently, of course.
Quote:

"I am a great husband! I love you! I don't feel loved by you! So what if there is grunge in the corners of the shower door? Clean it! Don't complain about it. Kind of like when I masturbate...I just take care of my sexual urge myself instead of expecting you to take care of it!"



This one too with matter-of-fact confidence.

Then after you've said something like this to her, ask her just exactly what is she so irritable about all the time, because you really don't think it has anything to do with sex. Let her know you're concerned she feels so bad about something. She's got a good husband who loves her, who does a significant amount of the housework, and who finds her sexually attractive. What exactly is it that is making her so miserable?

Exude CONFIDENCE and STRENGTH when she goes off, but don't let her get off the hook of really examining and talking about what is bugging her. I'm thinking there is something else eating at her that is just making her feel generally irritable. Could be the work and home switch. Even if it was awhile ago, the effects could easily still be there. Whatever it is, she may need someone to just listen to her talk/vent about how she feels. Does she share her inner, emotional self with you? Her vulnerabilities, fears, etc.? Does she talk about her feelings about her life with you? Not the feelings about you, but everything else?

MPT

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HD:

I leave work at 3 to pick up my children from school. I am home before the wife, I clean, vacumn, sometimens cook, drive the kids everywhere, do what ever I can around the house. In fact, now when I offer to do MORE, the wife starts complaining I do too much. So I guess that doing things around the house for the wife DOES NOT INCREASE THEIR LIBIDO's! Does your wife think you do these things to GET sex. I think my wife may think this way. Does your wife tell you to get out and make yourself happy? I find this so bizarre, my ND wife wants me to find activities that make me happy as she thinks I am depressed at times. So in her ND way of thinking, she see happiness as DOING things that are NOT SEXUAL. She thinks I will be happy by having hobbies, friends, going places, etc.. but it never crosses her mind that I want INITMACY and SEXUALITY. Does your wife ever think this way, that you need to find something to make you happy? I tell you the ND woman has thinking patterns that are obviously VERY different from a man's. My eife is also like yours, they want the sex issue to just go away. They will not admit that THEY have a problem. I have told my wife that she suffers from Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder, and she went ballistic. The truth is she is HSDD. So how to help a woman to recognize that she has this problem, and how to help her with it? The woman of course will lash out at you for being such a sex maniac, but we are not, we are NORMAL. They just can not admit that they are abnormal, they will blame us for every problem, when the real truth is that they have no clue as to what happened to their sex drives and they have no clue as to how to get them back. How to get these women to read the SSM, when they know that to correct the situation, they have a steep hill to climb.

Good luck Hairdog.

#237244 02/05/04 12:44 PM
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Okay, folks. I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that W finally picked up the SSM book!! The bad news is that she flipped it over, turned it around and put it back on the dresser, so that anybody (kids) wandering by will not be able to casually read the title.

MPT: I appreciate your words of wisdom, and am really trying hard to be that confident man that I know I can be. She does share her emotions, fears, etc. with me, but not on a daily basis. But I think she generally feels comfortable doing this, except when the subject is related to sex. She's never been one to talk at great length or in detail about sex.

CeMar: Man, I hear you!
Quote:

Does your wife tell you to get out and make yourself happy?


She tells me this in terms of "I want you to find yourself spiritually and to be happy." Well, I grew up Jewish, but I don't practice anymore. I was never that into go to the synagogue and praying in a language I didn't understand. But I can feel the spirituality, and closeness with God. She is a Buddhist, although she was Episcopalian when I met her. I think, in some ways, she may be projecting her search for spirituality on me.

She definitely would be happy if the sex issue went away. Last night, after the big blow up in the morning, she was all friendly and huggy and even kissed me good night. I appreciate this effort. We'll see where it goes. I'm in a better mood today. Either because of these affectionate efforts of hers (typical HD reaction, right Cemar?), or just that this morning wasn't as ugly as yesterday.

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