One giant leap forward!

[T1000]

That makes sense but then aren't I helping her achieve D? I thought we weren't supposed to do anyhing to aid D?

If she's hellbent on divorce then you're not going to stop it no matter what delay tactics you try to employ. My attitude about it is if D is inevitable- if it's really clear your spouse is proceeding with it with or without you, then if you can negotiate a peaceful settlement then it's the best thing for all involved (especially kids). I have VERY strong memories of my parents' divorce. I was dragged into court to testify against my mom; it was the most frightening, horrible moment of my life. I would do anything to keep my own kids from having to go through that.

Again that makes sense although I find the majority of what she has asked for to be too much. I also know where I stand in regards to what I would have to give her if we did do D through solicitors and it's nowhere near what she is wanting. How could I possibly come out of this without being the evil H?

I'm certainly not suggesting just caving to her demands. If she's being unrealistic and the two of you can't negotiate a settlement, then you may very well have to involve solicitors.

I'm sorry you had to go through that AS. I don't want any of that for my kids.
She said yesterday she cannot afford to go through solicitors. I don't know whether that means she doesn't want a D right now and she justs wants more money or she does want a divorce and expects us to sort it out between us.

Aren't I then saying it is OK for her talk to talk me in this way?

I don't usually do this, but I'm going to answer your question with a question- are you detached?

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

I'm not going to lie, I'm not detached.

I'm more detached than I have been but still a way to go.

Best I could do right now is act detached to W.

[T1000]

Right now I feel like I want to do the following.

Email W tomorrow.
Get some clarification on what she wants to arrange between us.
Something like:

Hi,

Could you tell me what it is exactly that you want to arrange between us?

T

(Really I'm asking if she wants a divorce or something else without putting words into her head.)

My stance on discussing things if it gets that far:
- It will have to be in person. No email or text discussion about whatever it is we are to discuss.
- One thing at a time.
- I'm going to take the time I need to make a decision.
- Any shouting, rude or obnoxious behaviour from W and will leave or warn her and leave during any discussions.
- I will make notes and keep records of what was said.

This could easily change. Just want to let you guys know where I am right now, tonight.

[adinva]

I think your question is unclear and lack of clarity creates more difficulty than it resolves. Why don't you just ask her what you're really asking and drop the code words? Do you think if you don't use the D word then she won't realize it's an option?

Are you wondering if she is pursuing a divorce or a legal separation? Couldn't you just ask her that? You know she's pursuing something, and hoping to do it without paying solicitors if she doesn't need to, and it's not unreasonable to ask what her goal is. The answer would probably hurt, but hiding your head in the sand doesn't hurt less.

I was curious so I asked my H if he had a timeframe or something in which he was hoping to be D'd. I was surprised at his answer that he didn't have a timeframe and wasn't in a hurry, just wanted legal separation done. Asking didn't hurt, and the answer was actually less painful than what I thought it would be. Words just describe what is already there, don't be afraid of the words.

[T1000]

Thanks adinva

I have a habit of asking a question like a multiple choice survey that's why I limited the wording but its obviously too sparse.

You are correct though. I will just ask if it's financial/child arrangements, a divorce or both.

[adinva]

I know! Questions like, is it x, or is it y, or is it z? Right?

What do you really want to know, not what are you guessing it might be?

Seeing that you're sensitive to try to reduce your multiple choice type questions, I understand better why you were being unclear. It's really hard when you get conflicting advice here, I know! I don't really think it's that bad to ask her what she's going for. I wonder why you need to ask, can you just wait and see? Maybe she's feeling her way through this and is unclear on it too. Maybe while she's figuring out how to get a divorce you're being so patient and validating her feelings and giving her space to figure things out that she begins to wonder what she's doing. The limbo is hard to live in, but none of us really knows the future so what good is it really to ask and try to find out now what it's going to be. Could you just wait for her to hand you something that is more clear? Just kicking the idea around, not trying to tell you what to ask or not ask, just wondering.

[Fartiltre]

T,

IMHO!

Hold your horses! Do not send that email tomorrow!

I understand PM, Labug, Adinva and AS and if you feel somewhat confused right now I get that too!

You need to make up YOUR mind in what YOU want to do about this! You seem to be drifting around and turning towards the last advice given to you!
You have received invaluable advice in all kind of directions. Read them over a few times more before deciding anything. Don’t rush in to this!

I believe that all this D-talk in the last posting could be way ahead of your Ws intensions! Look into Sandi2s postings! On the other hand I do agree with them if this is not the case! Hard case!!!
What do YOU believe?

IMO this will put the words in her mouth:

I will just ask if it's financial/child arrangements, a divorce or both.

Use an open ended! If this does not clarify things you can always ask a new one!

You could also consider asking this to her face on Friday!!

I really like this:

My stance on discussing things if it gets that far:
- It will have to be in person. No email or text discussion about whatever it is we are to discuss.
- One thing at a time.
- I'm going to take the time I need to make a decision.
- Any shouting, rude or obnoxious behaviour from W and will leave or warn her and leave during any discussions.
- I will make notes and keep records of what was said.

No emails or texts – beautiful and a major 180!
If you keep the records (I have done this!) then talk about it before you start. Tell her that it is for both of you and give her a copy! That takes some of the controlling out of this!

And this:

This could easily change.

Apply the rule! Hold the decision!

F

P.S. We need to meet up for a beer one day! In which part of UK are you living?

[sandi2]

T, I think some people who try to follow your thread may find it confusing when you type out possible conversations with your W. I know I found one of your threads confusing b/c most of it was you writing out different styles.....and come to find out, nothing had been sent pages later. Just saying that it could affect a person's advice. Maybe you could decide what you want first...and then if you need help wording it, go from there?

I would like to say this in regards to Advina's advice toward the emai/divorce/children's schedules, etc. I don't want this to sound disrespectful or critical of Advina in any sense of speaking. I know you are getting opposing advice, and I'm trying to state why it may be. Advina is a mature and rational lady and her advice has always sounded very "reasonable" to me. She keeps it simple. I just wish your W was on a mature level of being as rational, and you could reason with her....and trust her to stick to the "agreement" made between the two of you.

Btw, regarding something I said in a post to Bond may or may not apply to another person's stitch. I remember saying that about women, and Advina is correct, both male & females have hormones. However, I've never heard about men committing some of the acts women have been accused....b/c the man's hormones ere out of balance. And again, Advina is talking about a "rational" woman taking "reasonable" steps to correct the hormonal problem. But do you believe your W could be described as rational & reasonable? , I do agree that her having unbalanced hormones does not change your situation. But, you just never know what to expect from her. And if you are trying to find an excuse for her, I don't think it is going to change your situation.

Your W is a WAW (in a fantasy), a cake-eater, a controller, unpredictable, an emotional "reactor", and swings to the opposite extreme in a second's notice. This is what I based my advice upon. And the fact you had the history of being a passive "yes dear" H. If you were to agree on all her terms (in hopes of having peace and doing what you think is best for the kids).......the first time you (your relatives, or anyone) ticks her off....she will pull another stunt to prove that she is still the one who pulls the strings in your life.

If that's what you want, then fine. But it will not settle things. It will continue over into whatever new life you try to have. If you were to get M again, she would still try to push your buttons. I have seen things like this with my own eyes, T. I know people like this. As long as she can get a reaction by doing the unpredictable, unreasonable, or extreme.......she will continue.

I don't know that AS noticed that she never used the word "divorce", when she emailed about the two of you working things out. She only implied. But you didn't think she was referring to D, right? The minute AS said she was, you immediately assumed you had been wrong. (Another example of confusion.)

Anyway, it started out with you talking about responding to her email threat of lawyer/D to whether or not to contact her about picking up the kids Friday. Frankly, how do you know what she might or might not do by Friday? You don't. But I believe you might go nuts just trying to make a decision! You can't make up your mind until you're faced with another situation.

If you have not heard anymore from her by the time you get home from work Thursday, I would email her regarding getting the kids Friday. Keep it strictly about picking up the kids. Tell her that you want to see how the two of you can agree on a co-parenting/visitation schedule before you can go into "further" agreements. If she pulls the "playing dumb" card and has the nerve to ask what you mean, then tell her if she wants a D, you won't stand in her way. If she is trying to avoid lawyer expense and work out the "details", you want time to think it over. You want time to see how the visitation schedule will be agreed upon. (Btw, you may suggest that both of you wright it out, just so there won't be forgetting or confusing some of the dates.)

That's just my opinion. You have to do what you feel is right and fair........while maintaining your self-respect. And the reason I suggested you tell her you won't stand in her way if she wants a D? B/c I think if you tell her in that fashion, you will see another extreme change of heart in her! It doesn't mean that you now want a D, but you won't fight her if she wants it. Do you see the difference?

[sandi2]

To clarify about emailing her regarding Friday and keeping it strictly about the kids.......you don't have to volunteer the other information of that paragraph right then. But at some point, she will ask how you feel about her suggesting you two work things out between you. I was trying to help you be prepared with an answer, whenever it came up.

[T1000]

T, I think some people who try to follow your thread may find it confusing when you type out possible conversations with your W. I know I found one of your threads confusing b/c most of it was you writing out different styles.....and come to find out, nothing had been sent pages later. Just saying that it could affect a person's advice. Maybe you could decide what you want first...and then if you need help wording it, go from there?

Fair point. I think I am trying to back up my thoughts with how I would apply them in the sitch. Never really thought it might be confusing to follow as a 3rd party.

I would like to say this in regards to Advina's advice toward the emai/divorce/children's schedules, etc. I don't want this to sound disrespectful or critical of Advina in any sense of speaking. I know you are getting opposing advice, and I'm trying to state why it may be. Advina is a mature and rational lady and her advice has always sounded very "reasonable" to me. She keeps it simple. I just wish your W was on a mature level of being as rational, and you could reason with her....and trust her to stick to the "agreement" made between the two of you.

Btw, regarding something I said in a post to Bond may or may not apply to another person's stitch. I remember saying that about women, and Advina is correct, both male & females have hormones. However, I've never heard about men committing some of the acts women have been accused....b/c the man's hormones ere out of balance. And again, Advina is talking about a "rational" woman taking "reasonable" steps to correct the hormonal problem. But do you believe your W could be described as rational & reasonable? , I do agree that her having unbalanced hormones does not change your situation. But, you just never know what to expect from her. And if you are trying to find an excuse for her, I don't think it is going to change your situation.

Just to point out it is a mixture of adinva and labug that you are referring to.

Because my W can go from pursuing to hating my guts in 30 minutes just because I haven't said anything says to me she isn't being rational.

What adinva and labug have said is good advice and that is part of the reason I get stuck because their advice sounds correct from an adult, right thing to do angle.

I also think I'm past making excuses for my W's behaviour, especially on here.

Your W is a WAW (in a fantasy), a cake-eater, a controller, unpredictable, an emotional "reactor", and swings to the opposite extreme in a second's notice. This is what I based my advice upon. And the fact you had the history of being a passive "yes dear" H. If you were to agree on all her terms (in hopes of having peace and doing what you think is best for the kids).......the first time you (your relatives, or anyone) ticks her off....she will pull another stunt to prove that she is still the one who pulls the strings in your life.

If that's what you want, then fine. But it will not settle things. It will continue over into whatever new life you try to have. If you were to get M again, she would still try to push your buttons. I have seen things like this with my own eyes, T. I know people like this. As long as she can get a reaction by doing the unpredictable, unreasonable, or extreme.......she will continue.

I don't know that AS noticed that she never used the word "divorce", when she emailed about the two of you working things out. She only implied. But you didn't think she was referring to D, right? The minute AS said she was, you immediately assumed you had been wrong. (Another example of confusion.)

I wasn't always the passive "yes dear" husband in our marriage. I think that caused a lot of arguments between us. I would stand my ground on anything but we never had the skills/tools to come out of a disagreement in a healthy way.
I have been much more passive since she left to try and get her back (not that it has worked in any meaningful way).

Imo there's a good chance that her behaviour could very well stay the same forever. All I can do is change how I let it effect me or not effect me.

I didn't think she meant D when she emailed me, just everything else.

Anyway, it started out with you talking about responding to her email threat of lawyer/D to whether or not to contact her about picking up the kids Friday. Frankly, how do you know what she might or might not do by Friday? You don't. But I believe you might go nuts just trying to make a decision! You can't make up your mind until you're faced with another situation.

If you have not heard anymore from her by the time you get home from work Thursday, I would email her regarding getting the kids Friday. Keep it strictly about picking up the kids. Tell her that you want to see how the two of you can agree on a co-parenting/visitation schedule before you can go into "further" agreements. If she pulls the "playing dumb" card and has the nerve to ask what you mean, then tell her if she wants a D, you won't stand in her way. If she is trying to avoid lawyer expense and work out the "details", you want time to think it over. You want time to see how the visitation schedule will be agreed upon. (Btw, you may suggest that both of you wright it out, just so there won't be forgetting or confusing some of the dates.)

That's just my opinion. You have to do what you feel is right and fair........while maintaining your self-respect. And the reason I suggested you tell her you won't stand in her way if she wants a D? B/c I think if you tell her in that fashion, you will see another extreme change of heart in her! It doesn't mean that you now want a D, but you won't fight her if she wants it. Do you see the difference?

I do see the difference. I was thinking about D last night and how I would feel doing it. I wasn't that bothered to be honest.

Starting with the co-parenting agreement is a good place to start and should give me an insight into how the rest of it may go.

I will contact her tomorrow and ask about the kids on Friday and also mention that we can start with discussing a co-parenting schedule and if that goes well we can look at the rest.

[T1000]

To clarify about emailing her regarding Friday and keeping it strictly about the kids.......you don't have to volunteer the other information of that paragraph right then. But at some point, she will ask how you feel about her suggesting you two work things out between you. I was trying to help you be prepared with an answer, whenever it came up.

I would prefer to offer some information regarding the co-parenting when I email her. If anything just to placate her somewhat. Last thing I want is any issue picking up the kids on the Friday.