Stuck between a rock and a hard place!

[MileHigh]

There are definitely those on here who favor brow-beating and haranguing and harping on everything ever said even if the person saying it was clinically depressed at the time. There's a lot of "you'll see it exactly my way or you're 100% wrong" these days. Some people get to a certain point and then seem to act superior to others who are not progressing at the same rate or who have had setbacks. It didn't seem to be that way here several years ago.

[adinva]

What i have found helpful is the book, and the theories in the book. While there are a multitude of different flavors here of both marital problems and approaches to solving them, the common denominator is that most or all of us felt the divorcebusting ideas were a solid healthy approach. Where someone differs a lot from that approach -here - might warrant taking them with a grain of salt. Or, they could write their own book and start a successful web forum...

Always remember there are no guarantees, never were, no matter what approach you try. No one knows what will work, for sure, but a lot of us know from personal experience and hundreds of stories here, what will not work. Imo operating from a fear of being divorced will not work. You have to lose that fear, it will inhibit your ability to know and do what is the right thing to do. Out of fear, i think, you are desperate to know what to say and do, and it feels unnatural and forced, because it doesnt come from a place of confidence within you, that you have done your work, you know what is right for you, and let the chips fall where they may.

Before you get your w back, youve got work to do on you, and you cant expect your w to wait for that with no guarantees. You just need to get started and fix your own issues, yesterday.

Are you getting counseling? Why are you making excuses even now for the behavior that frightened your w? Its ok to understand why, and even forgive yourself, but if you think it was acceptable due to the circumstances, or if you think you will be able to do better in the future without any outside serious help, then im not sure how you could put yourself in her shoes and see a future with you as a viable option. What are you doing about that?

[dorightman]

Imo operating from a fear of being divorced will not work.

I agree.

Out of fear, i think, you are desperate to know what to say and do, and it feels unnatural and forced, because it doesnt come from a place of confidence within you, that you have done your work, you know what is right for you, and let the chips fall where they may.


I think I have done alot of work, but it doesn't appease the sadness I feel at times. I don't want a D with every cell in my body. I love my W and family and want us all to heal.

I understand why my W wants a D, but I don't understand it at the same time. I'am not the type of person to ever put D on the table unless of very extreme circumstances.

The fact is that W and I never communicated properly with each other from the start. And being threatened with D is no way to work through problems or to make your S feel safe.

I could write a book about all the ways I messed up and I could probably do the same for my W. What good is it going to do now. Everytime I try to rationalize or understand this stuff, I get emotional because it hurts and I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall and that hurts more because there's no forgiveness here. It's a dark, lonely, sad. frustrating cold place to be.

I feel dragged through all of this. I did make mistakes, I did react out of anger and frustration a few times, I can't tell you whats normal or not, all I can say is that I never ever hurt anyone and I was just letting my steam out.

People need to be able to feel safe to be emotional with their partners without being punished for it. I frightened W by having feelings. I was judged by W and she was terrified of my emotions.

I need to be with someone who accepts the best and worst of me. I need someone to be in the fire with me.

Has anyone here heard of Hostile Dependency?

I didn't know it wasn't ok to say mean things to my S in the middle of a fight, I didn't know it wasn't alright to cry in front of my S.

OK, so now I know and now I have to pay the price with D. I have been doing alot of work on myself. I have not reacted in any of the ways I did in the past for the last few months. The worst thing I did was move back into my house without telling my W because I couldn't afford the rent of my apt, and it was a last minute thing because I had to leave town to work.

I'am emotional right now, so my writing/thinking may not be the most rational.
I'am also not that great at writing out my thoughts.

Before you get your w back, youve got work to do on you, and you cant expect your w to wait for that with no guarantees. You just need to get started and fix your own issues, yesterday.

I will continue to do work on me, can't afford therapy anymore, spent thousands on it, mine and W's. Will continue to read books, think about things, hang out here with you good people.
I don't expect my W to wait for me, why would I after all of this? My sister says there's two types of people in this world. Stick with it people and the others who run.
All I've wanted from the start of this is to work through our problems together and all my W's wanted from the start of this is to get a D. She says she worked on the M and I didn't in the past and now it's too late! (Were still alive aren't we?)

I understand how she feels like she tried over a long period of time to fix our R and I didn't want to at that time. Then when she gave up and wanted a D, that's when I woke up and wanted to do the work. Sounds simple and status quo, but there's alot more to the story then that.

By the way, there's no guarantees in life. We all want control, control helps us to quell the fear inside. The greater the fear, the more control we want.

Are you getting counseling? Why are you making excuses even now for the behavior that frightened your w?

Taking a break from therapy for the moment. If things get really tough, and I think they will if I actually have to deal with getting a D, selling the house,etc. I will go back.
I'am not making excuses for my behavior that frightened my W. I regret anything I did that scared her in the past and I have learned that she is not capable of handling my emotions in a fight. She is very capable of dishing it out, but not of receiving it back. If you could hear the things she is capable of saying to me, she has said some of the most painful things to me and I had to learn how to listen to her say these things without reacting emotionally. " I want a D, I don't love you, I want to sleep with another man, I want intimacy, just not with you, I don't care how much work you do on yourself, I don't want you anymore, now or in the future.....................................................................
Last fall when we had our big fights, it was her that lashed out towards me physically, not me. I tried to hug her to calm her down while she grabbed my throat, kicked me, punched me, hid under the covers of our bed when I tried to talk to her, covered her ears to not listen. And then filed a police report on me accusing me of who knows what. All I was trying to do was talk to her and show her that she had nothing to be afraid of, that I loved her and she was safe.
It all felt like an acting job by her to get me out of the house.

Yes Bond, I did throw a coffee cup to the floor, I did cry and I did punch a pillow on my bed and I did ask her to smell my armpit because she was harassing me in my house while I was doing my own thing, trying to stay away from her and she was antagonizing me, blah blah blah. Yes I messed up, yes I shouldn't have reacted. That is the worst I have done to her. How long are you going to punish me for? How long is she going to punish me for? How long am I going to take it? What good does any of this do? Once we recognize our mistakes, our faults, our shortcomings, what good does this repetitive punishment do?

Its ok to understand why, and even forgive yourself, but if you think it was acceptable due to the circumstances, or if you think you will be able to do better in the future without any outside serious help, then im not sure how you could put yourself in her shoes and see a future with you as a viable option. What are you doing about that?

I do forgive myself and I do forgive my W. I don't think any of this behavior is acceptable due to the circumstances, but it happened and we can't change the past. All we can do is try to learn from it. I believe we choose our partners for mutual healing and in order to do that we must push each other to the edge.

I think I will be able to do better in the future with all that I've learned so far, and I will continue therapy when I can afford it again. I don't expect my W to see a future with me as a viable option because she doesn't. As she says, it takes two to make a R work and if I don't want to do the work with you, it's over.

I know I can't control her, she has to want to do the work, but she doesn't want to because she feels she has already done the work and gave me the chances and now it's too late! That's her story from the start, hasn't changed in two years and doesn't look like it's going to change.
I want to do the work, I want to make her happy, I want to keep my family together, I want to overcome fear with love, I want, I want, I want......

As Bond keeps telling me, It doesn't matter what I want or feel.

SO, without staying in the negative and trying to balance with the positive.
I understand that it will take alot more time for W to recover from all of this BS.
I understand that I cannot control her, only myself.
I understand that if she wants a D, she will get it.
I understand that I have to be happy no matter what.
I understand that I have to make the best of whatever situation I'm in.
I understand that I have to take care of me and my kids.

That is some of the work I have done this year.

W has not brought up mediation or D in the past few days, but continues to treat me like her neighbor. She still is not interested in reading any of the books I suggested she read about love. It looks like she is just passing time until she gets what she wants. I'am being the best dad and husband possible.
I'm not sure if she's going to move out at the end of this month and rent a 3 bedroom apt that neither of us can afford.

Should I ask her what her plans are or should I just continue to live in limbo?

Thanks Advina, labug, and Bond. I appreciate your time and input so much!

[MrBond]

"I regret anything I did that scared her in the past and I have learned that she is not capable of handling my emotions in a fight."

Why does she have to "handle" your emotions? You shouldn't have overreacted in the first place. If you were to learn to cope with things in a less emotional manner, then things would have been better. You started learning this, BUT your resentment is holding you back.

" I did ask her to smell my armpit because she was harassing me in my house while I was doing my own thing, trying to stay away from her and she was antagonizing me, blah blah blah."

She wasn't antagonizing you. She told you that you smelled. Big deal. Then you came back with asking her if she wanted sex. Which I have no idea how you came up with that. This is EXACTLY what you posted.

"I asked her if she wanted intimacy, she said no.

I then told her she was being passive aggressive and that if she thought I smelled bad to just tell me and to tell me to take a shower. Then I told her to smell me, put my armpit towards her and hugged her. She freaked out, punched me, kicked me, grabbed my throat. I backed off, she said she was going to call the police. I said I was going to take a shower."

I can tell you that ANY woman would have freaked out if you did that. Not just your W.

"I understand that it will take alot more time for W to recover from all of this BS."

Whose BS are you talking about? Yours from the past or hers?

"I understand that if she wants a D, she will get it."

Again, your attitude towards this isn't right. She wants a D because of all the things that happened in the past. You can't just say, well I'm going to give her what she wants. The attitude needs to change.

"I understand that I have to be happy no matter what."

You don't "have" to be happy. It's just in your best interest to "be" happy. Slight change in belief, but very important to your well being.

"W has not brought up mediation or D in the past few days, but continues to treat me like her neighbor."

That is her choice. She doesn't want to be emotionally involved with you any more.

"She still is not interested in reading any of the books I suggested she read about love."

Why are you STILL trying to control her and the situation? You say in the beginning of the post that you "know" that you can't control her, etc. BUT you still do it. One of the first things in DB is to NOT tell your spouse to read anything. Why do you keep doing it?

"It looks like she is just passing time until she gets what she wants."

Mindreading. She didn't want a relationship with you. Period. You just moved back in without discussing things with her. Nothing has been in HER control. She's trying to regain that.

"I'm not sure if she's going to move out at the end of this month and rent a 3 bedroom apt that neither of us can afford."

You don't understand. SHE just wants to get away from you which is why she wants to move out. Why don't YOU actually see if there's a place where you can move out to right now? It's bound to be cheaper. It will ease alot of the tension going on right now. Start some kind of positive actions that SHOW her you understand. STOP telling her to read things.

"Should I ask her what her plans are or should I just continue to live in limbo?"

Being in limbo is YOUR choice because you have continued to do what YOU want to do at the expense of her needs. If you really want to show her you care and understand her, you will find an affordable place (either she's going to move or you are and it seems like you moving would be cheaper) and give her the space she needs right now. That's your best alternative.

[MrBond]

Oh and BTW, to address this...

"There's a lot of "you'll see it exactly my way or you're 100% wrong" these days."

I'm not sure how this poster came to this conclusion, but I want to clarify that this is certainly not the case. You are entitled to do whatever you want to and there is NO right answer. There are just 180s that are different from what you are doing and if what you are doing isn't working, sometimes it helps to have things pointed out. But the bottom line is that it is YOUR decision on what to do.

"Some people get to a certain point and then seem to act superior to others who are not progressing at the same rate or who have had setbacks. It didn't seem to be that way here several years ago."

Also, we all understand that people will backslide. It happens. However, when there are ways of preventing it, or when we see that there's something bad that can be avoided (like watching a car wreck in slow motion), we're empassioned enough about helping to try and prevent that from happening.

We will ALWAYS have YOUR best interest in mind and believe that all marriages can be saved. We wouldn't be spending our free time on these boards if we weren't.

[dorightman]

W initiated talk this morning. She told me she & kids are moving out end of month, said she filed for support order because she's afraid I'm not going to give her money. She said she could withdraw the order if I would go to mediation and give her what she is legally entitled to.
She said she see's and appreciates how I've been acting lately and she's happy about it, but she doesn't want to live like this anymore. She's not mad I moved back and she's happy that I can stay in the house while she lives a mile away. She's happy we've been co-parenting well together.
She want separation, mediation, and D.

She said she doesn't trust me after all the things I've done.


I said alot of things I probably shouldn't have. I told her trust and love are decisions and that if she doesn't try to trust me, she never will. Same with love.
I told her I just want her to be happy, but that I'm under alot of financial strain right now and since she's getting a raise, she should be able to pay her own rent.
I said ok, let's do a separation, but not D right away, give it some time. She said we already have and she wants D. She said I have control issues and I said WE have control issues.

I know I should have kept my mouth shut.

How do I proceed? Give her mediation, separation & D ? Ask her for separation and mediation without D for a time period?

[MrBond]

I'm sorry it got to this point.

Needless to say, that would have been a great time for YOU to validate her, but instead she ended up validating you. Yes you need to learn to keep your mouth shut. You especially shouldn't have told her... "I said WE have control issues."

For now, get legal counsel and figure out a payment plan. I would tell her that you would move, again it's cheaper. Be the man and be the one to move out. Try and give it space again.

[adinva]

Trust is earned, as well as a decision. How well do you feel you have earned the right to ask her to make a decision to trust?

Your question of whether you can put off D and just be separated has been asked and answered, in fact in exactly the same post you reported her answer. Why would you ask again? When you know you won't get a different answer, asking repeatedly becomes offensive.

If you're looking for advice here, take what is offered as suggestions, consider them, and do what you feel is the right thing to do. Don't do anything just because a stranger on a message board told you. But it looks to me like your best course is to continue as amicably as you are with her right now, into mediation and divorce, letting her drive the timeframe.

Every time you hear something she says and argue it, like WE are controlling, you are confirming to her that she is making the right decision. You can disagree from your viewpoint, but you seem instead to try to force her to see things from your viewpoint. Have you worked on that?

Take care of yourself, give her all the space she's asking for and more, and be a wonderful dad and coparent. I think that's all you can do at this particular point in time.

What do YOU think you should do?

[dorightman]

Just finished another conversation with W. Much better ending.
She's moving out because the apt deal she's getting is very good and less then if I moved out.
We talked through everything, she expressed her lack of trust in me. We talked about why she felt unsafe in the past, and how she feels safe now.
We talked about how my reactions were extreme in the past and why.
We talked about when she's moving out, what she wants to take from the house.
We talked about our different perspectives on what happened in the past, we talked about going to mediation, being fair with each other.
We talked about our money issues from the past and how we both want to change that.
I ended the conversation by telling her I'm sorry for the ways I've hurt her in the past and that all I want to do is resolve our issues and be friends, that I love her and I want her to be happy and that I hope in the future she will see what an awesome guy I'am and will want me back because i love her and I want her back.

She said that a new friendship is the beginning of a foundation for us to move forward and that she would be an awesome friend. She started crying and said that she has been waiting so long for me to talk like this to her and we both hugged and cried.

I feel more optimistic now.

[MrBond]

"I feel more optimistic now."

Don't. And what I mean by that is that everytime YOU get a hint of optimism it seems like you overdo it. You haven't taken the time to detach yet and learn. Do that first.