Emotional Connection and Attraction

[BC39]

Mr.Bond refers to the wall built up in your wife's heart- I think he's nailed that. Just as I told you in a previous post, your wife is in what Dr. Harley refers to as "withdrawel". Essentially, she's put a wall up that blocks all of your attempts to reach her heart.

I also believe the "wall" analogy nails it.

When you act pouty or whiny because YOUR needs aren't being met, all it does is close her heart further. Want to stand up and be a "man"? Quit whining about what you're not getting!

1. Practice patience, draw her out of withdrawel by showing that you are a safe person to express her feelings to. Put her needs first during this process, leave yours on the back burner for now. Create a new marriage together built on partnership and mutual care.

I understand.

Sorry to come off so strong here, but you are trying to fix your marriage by trying to GET from her, rather than GIVING to her. I see that in the times that you give, it's because you expect a reciprocal "get". With that attitude you will always be disappointed.

I understand. I want to give to her.

You are not on this board saying "hey folks! What else can I do to make my wife feel more understood and loved?". Instead, you complain about your wife not having sex with you. I can read your posts from my wife's perspective and can tell you with absolute certainty that she would agree with your wife's lack of desire to be intimate with you.

Again, I understand and agree. Part of this perception is my inability to express myself properly. I would do anything to help my W feel more understood and loved.

Instead of repeating yourself like a broken record here, or coming up with arguments that defend your stance, take the time to actually DIGEST what others have written here to you. I already went through all of this pain in my marriage, and came out the other side. I am only on these boards to pay it forward. I am interested in helping you succeeded in winning back your wife's heart. But it is a waste of my time if you only read what I take the time to write just to counter point it.

I'm sincerely sorry if I gave that impression. I'm eternally grateful to you and others here that take the time to try to help.

She is STILL not in love with you because you are pushing her heart into "withdrawl". Her heart is in withdrawel to keep you from repeatedly hurting it.

Could you elaborate on this for me? I want to understand what I'm doing to push her heart to withdrawl and what I'm doing to hurt her?

[BC39]

I completely understand how you feel. It can be very, very frustrating, however, try not to let it get the best of you. It may take her a while to work through her inner demons. Do you want to be standing there when she does of have her looking at your back as you walk out the door?

I'm trying my best not to get frustrated. I want to be standing there.

thx LTH

[BC39]

W and I just had lunch together. She wants to take the kids away this weekend, which is nice.

We got into a convo of past behaviors. We started talking about how's she's different.

W used to be much more emotional among other things. It started to change sometime after our S5 was born. My best guess is in the last 3-5 years.

I'm going to have a hard time explaining this, but she's hardened and closed off compared to the way she used to be. And I don't mean with just me, but in general... friends, family, job.

She used to cry very easily as one example. Some commercials would even get her to tear up. She was always this way. She used to make fun of herself for how often she cried. She rarely does now.

I wouldn't say she's apathetic, but apathetic is not a word that would even pop into my head if I was referring to her a few years ago.

Anyway, I know everyone changes, it was just a note a wanted to write down.

We talked about me as well. That I've never expressed my feelings and how I got that from my parents. My parents show no affection to one another, don't tell each they love each other in front us. The only time we tell each other I love might have been at my wedding. The only time my mother and I hug is if she's going on a trip. My dad hugged me once at his moms funeral. Its just always been that way.

My W used to hate that I never told her how I felt about her. At BD a year ago when I laid all my feelings for her on the line she said "if you had of said these things to me 6 months ago I would have been really taken aback". I used to tell her I loved her all the time, but I didn't show it well. I didn't elaborate. The only time I would elaborate was after a fight or put on the spot. I kind of had a "you know I love you" attitude....just like my parents.

The first time in my life I've ever written down my feelings was my first post on this board in October)

I have tried to change that since BD a year ago. It still doesn't always come naturally to me.

I apologized to her for making her feel that way in the past. I told her that I loved her with every fiber of my being and I just want her to be happy. She said "thanks for saying that".

My W and her family were always the opposite. Plenty of affection and I love you's. They're still like that.

There's a strong chance that working with my parents and I for the last decade has caused her to become more apathetic.

[HopefulStill]

BC39,
The shower conversation that you had with your wife feels EXACTLY like one that I had with my wife (in the shower too I might add!!!!) while going through her EA. At the time, she was swearing to me that the OM was long gone and totally out of the picture. It "wasn't him", and she was "trying" to get her feelings back for me, and it "wasn't working" and made her feel discouraged.

I've already told you what I wish I had dug harder for at the time- she had been in contact with the OM. The lack of emotion that your wife is displaying played out in my house too. What I came to learn is that some WAS spend an enormous amount of energy pushing their feelings down around the S - lest anything about the OM pop out. They save their feelings for the OP, not the spouse.

I don't want to send you off in a panic, but I would be looking like crazy for evidence that the A has restarted. It's like dealing with a drug addict- they can be normal off the substance, but then fog right back up after getting another taste. It seems to me that she is deciding between the two of you. Heck, it may even be a different OM, but probably not.

We like to go through our lives with the notion that we are unique and different, but since going through this, and reading all of the posts - it turns out we all play the same script! It's crazy! We could have swapped places in the past and you would have sworn that my wife's words were your wife's!

My sister was involved with another man (we don't speak) who kept a separate phone in his car that he would only pull out during the day to call my sister. Cheaters are crafty. You have to think like a cheater to find the evidence. It took me a long time with my wife- she had become VERY careful. I mostly believed her when she told me they hadn't had contact, but I would search anyway. For months I searched. Then one day she got sloppy...... BTW, that still didn't end it....she got craftier still.......

Do not tell her of your suspicions- if it is true then it is essential that you let her get complacent, or else she won't slip. Additionally, if it's not true, she never has to know that you checked. Trust but verify!

It's just my opinion, but your wife's words are so much like the ones that my wife spoke that it's scary. Keep being the man of her dreams, (do not profess unconditional love though) all while keeping your eyes open. I'm not at home with you, but I smell another rooster in the hen house. I hope I'm wrong.

[MrBond]

Your conversation with her was great.

Don't go into the habit of analyzing her behaviors and why you "think" she's emotionally guarded. There are many factors that could have caused this and she is just protecting herself. She's protecting herself from the harsh judgement of others because she knows that what she's doing is unpopular, but doesn't know what else to do. So she shields herself to do what SHE feels is right. She probably doesn't even know why she's doing what she's doing and needs the "space" to figure it out or go through it.

Don't overanalyze. She is the only one that can get that wall back down that she's built up.

[BC39]

God, I hope your wrong Hopeful but I'll keep my eyes open as usual..


Thanks Bond, very insightful

[Accuray]

I've already told you what I wish I had dug harder for at the time- she had been in contact with the OM. The lack of emotion that your wife is displaying played out in my house too. What I came to learn is that some WAS spend an enormous amount of energy pushing their feelings down around the S - lest anything about the OM pop out. They save their feelings for the OP, not the spouse.

I don't want to send you off in a panic, but I would be looking like crazy for evidence that the A has restarted. It's like dealing with a drug addict- they can be normal off the substance, but then fog right back up after getting another taste. It seems to me that she is deciding between the two of you. Heck, it may even be a different OM, but probably not.

HopefullStill is right that the continued presence and contact with OM can account for this behavior, but in my opinion, if OM was still involved you would know, because you would feel it. I suspect that in HopefullStill's case it was those "feelings" that motivated him to keep digging and watching. In my experience, when OM is truly gone you can tell.

Here's the other things that can account for her behavior: when OM is gone, she's going to mourn the loss, and that can take quite a while, during which time she will not be emotionally available to you.

In addition, the "in love" feeling of an affair is very intoxicating, people believe that "this is how they *should* feel". When they return to a long term marriage, those feelings do not arise, and the marriage can feel "flat" by comparison, or like something is missing.

You can rekindle "loving attachment", but you should not expect to rekindle "in love", which is a distinction that is absent from Dr. Harley's writings, and which I feel is a crucial difference.

If you wife is holding onto the expectation that she should have "honeymoon feelings" throughout the course of her marriage, that is not a reasonable expectation.

Her emotional wall could also be a remaining defense in response to prior hurts. At some point during the marriage, the WAS has their hopes for the relationship crushed, and walking away is the result. It's like if you broke a bunch of bones playing football without pads, you'd be loathe to remove your pads again in the future, even if the rules of the game have changed to prevent getting hit. The memory of the pain you experienced convinces you to keep those pads on for protection, no matter what!

I don't think digging for evidence of OM is a good idea unless you have a "nagging feeling" or other reason to suspect. I would be more likely to apply patience.

WRT Marriage Builders and Dr. Harley, I spent some time there including doing telephone coaching with Steve Harley. Overall there is some great material there, some of it is contradictory to DB, but most is consistent. Blending the two approaches can't hurt.

The major issue I have with it is the prescription that you do everything for your spouse and expect nothing in return *for years*. If their approach isn't working in making your spouse for back "in love" with you, their prescription is always to wait longer. With that approach, their method will never fail, because it will either succeed, or they can claim the person didn't follow it through or gave up.

We have one life to live. I had a friend who felt like he had heartburn and six weeks later was dead from esophageal cancer. I do not believe you should stay in a marriage that is making you feel tortured and unhappy for years and years. I think in a situation like yours where your wife claims to want to make it work and claims to want to engage with you, at some point you need to start getting your needs met, or you need to leave.

Acc

[BC39]

Thanks Accuray. Man, your insight is very helpful, thank you.

HopefullStill is right that the continued presence and contact with OM can account for this behavior, but in my opinion, if OM was still involved you would know, because you would feel it. I suspect that in HopefullStill's case it was those "feelings" that motivated him to keep digging and watching. In my experience, when OM is truly gone you can tell.

Everything points to the fact that he's gone, but who knows, I just have to have faith.

Here's the other things that can account for her behavior: when OM is gone, she's going to mourn the loss, and that can take quite a while, during which time she will not be emotionally available to you.

I can understand W mourning the loss of the relationship, but the timing is off. It doesn't make sense that she'd be mourning now, this long after. (I'll cover more of the timeline in my summary to you)

She's also told me (this could be lip service) that "she didn't love him or anything", they didn't "make any plans to be together" or anything like that. He just made her feel good.

In addition, the "in love" feeling of an affair is very intoxicating, people believe that "this is how they *should* feel". When they return to a long term marriage, those feelings do not arise, and the marriage can feel "flat" by comparison, or like something is missing.

You can rekindle "loving attachment", but you should not expect to rekindle "in love", which is a distinction that is absent from Dr. Harley's writings, and which I feel is a crucial difference.

If you wife is holding onto the expectation that she should have "honeymoon feelings" throughout the course of her marriage, that is not a reasonable expectation.

We've spoke about this, she says she understands this.

Her emotional wall could also be a remaining defense in response to prior hurts. At some point during the marriage, the WAS has their hopes for the relationship crushed, and walking away is the result. It's like if you broke a bunch of bones playing football without pads, you'd be loathe to remove your pads again in the future, even if the rules of the game have changed to prevent getting hit. The memory of the pain you experienced convinces you to keep those pads on for protection, no matter what!

At the risk of sounding like I'm down playing it, there were no glaring "hurts". It was normal marriage stuff.

"Attraction" and "Intimacy" we're never an issue until OM came into the picture. (Again, I'll try to cover this in my summary)

We have one life to live. I had a friend who felt like he had heartburn and six weeks later was dead from esophageal cancer. I do not believe you should stay in a marriage that is making you feel tortured and unhappy for years and years. I think in a situation like yours where your wife claims to want to make it work and claims to want to engage with you, at some point you need to start getting your needs met, or you need to leave.

I'm sorry about your friend. Life is certainly short.

I obviously think regularly how long I can do this. I get very frustrated regularly. I am an impatience person faced with a situation that may take more patience than the most patience of souls could endure.

I haven't thought of a timeline yet. I just know I love me wife.

I have to keep climbing this wall she has put up in front of me and hopefully I can make it to the top without falling off. Or maybe she'll lower it so I can walk to the other side.

..............

The tone of this post (trying to make sense of her actions) leads me to the path where I start to "question" or "try to make sense" of things.

Just this morning, she was very bubbly, we joke around, she gives me a kiss good bye and says have a good day....she SEEMS happy. It's like this most of time, even lately.

As much as I love that I can't help but also feel sad at the same time.

[HopefulStill]

Bc39,
Yeah, the timing is what doesn't feel right to me either.

It seems as though your wife, at least intellectually, understands that they chemical, emotional, high that she got from the OM is not mature love. What Accuray and Andrew Marshal describe as "loving attachment" pales in comparison to infatuation (what Mr. Marshall calls "limerance" and Accuray calls "in love"), and some WAS don't get that. When I say your wife is not "in love" with you, I speak not of infatuation (I agree with Accuray, you cannot expect that high to return in a long term marriage) but of loving attachment. It is the absence of loving attachment from a marriage that can make a spouse feel that there is no "love" in your marriage. A lack will also kill attraction.

If your gut has been serving you well to this point, then I would continue to trust it. We end up getting fine tuned into the WAS, and can tell when there is something amiss (we may not know what it is, just that something doesn't fit). If you are not feeling this way, then perhaps there are other reasons for her current change in behavior. You are in the best position to determine that, the community out here can only guide you based on what you write on these boards. I think your situation is being followed by some members with extremely keen insight, so in that regard you are lucky indeed.

[Accuray]

At the risk of sounding like I'm down playing it, there were no glaring "hurts". It was normal marriage stuff.

"Attraction" and "Intimacy" we're never an issue until OM came into the picture.

Well, I do honestly believe that all that's required for infidelity is opportunity. So I do believe you can "do nothing wrong" and still get cheated on.

Usually, however, there's something else going on real or perceived. Sometimes the WAS was deeply hurt or upset by something they never told you about, or did tell you about but you drastically underestimated the importance of it.

Not to say that these hurts were rational or fair or anything else, only that they can exist with or without your knowledge. For the "soon to be WAS" it's a common pattern that they smash their issues with you down rather than deal with them, and resentment sneaks up on them before they know what's happened and they're on their way to checking out.

I think very few people make the decision to go cheat and to detach from their marriage. Generally it's the result of negative self-perpetuating cycles.

If you haven't read "The Sex Starved Marriage", both you and your wife should do so. Don't be put off by the title, she defines "Sex Starved" as a marriage where one partner has a higher desire than the other, and the desire gap bothers the higher drive partner. That doesn't mean you never have sex, you just don't have sex enough for the HD partner.

That book does an excellent job of describing this dynamic: The W doesn't feel like having sex because you're not spending enough quality time with her outside the bedroom, talking to her and listening to her. The H is not getting the sex he wants, and therefore isn't motivated to spend the quality time. Because the W isn't getting the quality time, she wants sex even less, which makes the man less motivated to provide the quality time.

It's a self-feeding cycle that pulls you farther apart each time you spin around the wheel. The only way you break it is that one party has to pay it forward -- the H has to spend the quality time despite not getting the sex, or the W has to engage in the sex without getting the quality time. That can start a positive cycle spinning where suddenly getting your needs met inspires you to *want* to meet the other person's needs.

Sex is only one example, but there are many many dynamics like this that happen in a long term relationship where negative behavior precipitates and reinforces negative behavior in response, and you both resent the symptoms without ever addressing the cause.

Has your W addressed what lead her to cheat? How does she feel she got into that situation? (I'm sure you'll cover that in your summary)

Good stuff HopefulStill! It sounds like we've done very similar reading and research and joined here at about the same time.

Acc