One month down, zero casualties

[Raine]

I think it was actually a very good thing to happen. To hear him break down like that is still shocking me. As much as I know and think I know what this is, there is always doubts. There is always doubts that he doesn't love me, never did, and doesn't matter if I leave. That voicemail...it was this muffled, crying, hyperventilating "f, f, f I'm f'ing stupid. Oh 'raine.'"

It's better that I know. Otherwise I will always think he is. He didn't come in until 5am a few nights ago and I would have been spinning thinking he was with one, and he wasn't. It stops me from doing things like persuing him. The pattern is getting to the point I can recognize it. He needs to do something alone and he will always call me after. He called me to check on what we needed at the store and talked to me for 5+ minutes. I answered that call. I think he does that to check me and make sure he is in the clear. So to feel in the clear and come home and see me gone must have really upset him.

I gotta write more later. More stuff has happened from a few nights ago I need to go back and post about.

Thank you so much T,T,U,R,L,W. I could never get through this without your support. I made it through last night because of your posts. Hugs my beautiful friends!

[RosaLinda]

oh Raine, I"m sorry, I wrote this long message to you Saturday that seems to have disappeared. I'm glad that you were able to hear that part of your H's conversation with himself, hysterically crying, saying how stupid he is, when he forgot to hang up the phone. Maybe he DID go see OW, the little sneak, but it sure seems like he regretted it when he saw you were not home when he returned. I agree, this was a good thing to happen. Now you know how much he loves you and does not want to lose you. He will probably have more episodes, as he seems to be spiraling down like uR described. Maybe not -- after my H and his first EA broke up after 2 years, he was horribly withdrawn and depressed for almost a year. But I think this (knowing how much your H loves you) will help you to stand.

How did the rest of your weekend go? You are doing so great Raine!

[Raine]

I feel like I don't have the time to breath anymore. I feel though if I don't get these things posted, I'm going to forget them. This is quick and dirty and jumbled. Sorry for that.

I had a seed planting conversation, and I'm drained. I fought myself wanting to push the conversation towards him bomb dropping. I fought myself trying to get him to drop a bomb on me so I could have the excuse to be done with it all.

Things that came up:
The episodes from 2003 or so I think we can chalk up to normal bouts of depression any of us would suffer. Being away from family, marriage conflicts, work conflicts, whatever. He said they weren't lasting, and he didn't need to do anything to get over them or cope with them. He didn't experience this kind of stuff until 2010. (Okay, good!)

I told him I could relate to those kinds of depression, like he already knows, issues I had with my parents, issues with self esteem, issues I had with his parents. I told him how in the past 9 months I have resolved those issues with my parents and went into some details of the conversations I had with them. I told him that I had resolved my issues with his parents, and I apologized to him if at any point my issues/bitterness affected him or hurt him. He said, "I can't tell you if they had any affect on me. I don't know." (Whoa, what? His memory is foggy.)

Talked about depression (but that I didn't want to label what he had as depression as I felt it was much more than that.) Talked about how he displayed it both covertly and overtly. He was really agreeing with all of this. Told him how I felt like his dad had chronic depression. Talked about how depression makes one have tunnel vision, that they only see themselves. He talked about projecting. He said he doesn't feel like he did the projecting until the last few years, but knows he does it now. We've talked about this before where he projected his feelings onto me about not being able to forgive him (where he can't forgive himself) etc. He said for me to correct him if he was wrong, because he doesn't know if he did before or not.

We talked about other people, and here is where I started feeling icky, like, what does he think about me in all this? He feels like his brother married the wrong person. Feels like one of our friends who got remarried should be happy, because it was her choice and she married down, but someone more on her level. The one thing I do know is before H felt like I was on his level, intellectually or otherwise. He talked about this, bragged about this. There is no way he feels that these women he is using are on his level, but yeah they are right now. My head was spinning with questions I dare not ask.

He talked about women aging and how life choices affect that. For example our one friend is not as pretty as she could have been, due to life choices. (I think I have aged really well.) One of the women he is with I don't think has aged very well, due to hard life I'm sure. So ugh, I don't know what he is saying and I would be surprised if he does. He is after all hooking up with a 23 year old on top of a 44 year old. (That makes it sound like at the same time, but no proof of that yet. )


So timelines of going on: He went out Friday night straight from work to play games. He got home after 5am. Saturday night we had his friends over as well as him seeing OW1, and then having his melt down that I was gone when he got back. On Saturday someone mentioned that H got up from his game night and left and went for a walk, because he was upset. Someone was also annoyed at H for being on his phone the whole time too. I ask H tonight if he wanted to talk about Friday night if he was okay, and he said he didn't want to talk about it. My guess was a blow up or something with OW1. I don't know how him going over for a 15 min quickie could resolve any of that. He still seems like crap right now, but not as bad as before, when I started to notice the cycle down last week.

He leaves on this Wednesday and gets home late Friday night. The older boys have a camp out that he was supposed to take them to over Friday night. I figure he forgot when he arranged this trip. A friend of ours offered to take them, and I am going to say yes. I think I'm pushing the rock bottom. I am longing for rock bottom. H said tonight when he gets in he'll go straight from the airport to hang out with his friends. It'll be too late to go to the camp out anyway. I think that is so messed up. Life is so messed up. And I keep holding only because I've already held on so long. There are other reasons yes, but I'm getting tired.

H likely didn't fall asleep until 5am again Sunday morning. He woke up at 1230, and then back to bed. I took off with the kids and went up the canyon. H got up in time to have a couple of our old friends and new friends over that night. Everything went well. He interacts well with me, but something is up. He is still spiraling.

[complicated]

I think we usually know when something is up Raine. But I think what is key is the phone message that he didn't know you heard. This latest conversation still points to a lot of confusion in him.

Yes you see he messed up about the camping trip but he is not likely to see if for a while, if ever. They seem to come up with crazy reasons why they make sense. It doesn't make sense to anyone but them but they're the ones that are right. My h blames me for his A. Even told the kids this. They said, "huh?"

At least it seems like he is starting to see the light and he may be afraid of losing you. A good start. Who said one step forward and two steps back? I have to keep reminding myself that. I need to practice what I preach!

I know what you mean Raine, I'm really tired too. I'm exhausted. I keep telling myself I'm doing this for my kids. I want them to know I gave it everything. And, I'm doing it for us because I want him to see when he makes it through, hopefully, that I didn't give up. That's why we keep holding.

Keep being the good person that you are! You're doing fantastic!

[Wonka]

Raine,

I am wondering if one of those OWs is yanking the rope quite bit hard and your H's spiraling out as a result of that? Another thing I'd like to know is if you have some type of solutions journal where you can see what recent patterns are emerging and how you can effect the dynamic with H.

[Raine]

Wonka I gotta think #1 is. I think she texts him a lot and when he is texting while with me or friends, my thought is it's usually her. She is the one who is 10 years older, lost custody of her son, two bankruptcies, rents a room. I think she has the most to gain by H. She is also the one who would have caused the meltdown when he moved back in. I really don't get the dynamic with her and what he is telling her vs doing. I feel like they have a forbidden love situation going on because they can't really be together at work, cause of appearances, and she is the one that he knows I know about. I think they really only have contact with each other through text and quick and short, sneaky encounters.

No I haven't kept a journal like that. I haven't tried things really either. I've just been myself and I've just gotten out of the way as much as possible. I've followed his lead on reconnection except one thing I iniated. So I play a lot of phone games. He now has people over to the house about 3 times a week, at least for the past three weeks he has, so I am a part of it. I join in and he is concerned about me having a good time. I iniated chilling out with him some nights, rubbing his back, listening to a podcast or music. He lets me rub his back, snuggle against him. I feel like he needs that. It's all very innocent, but had a good convo with T2 about it and I feel it is good for connecting. He will drop any Convo with ow and put away his phone if I ask him if he wants to listen to a podcast. Always yes. He'll go do anything with me and wants to be invited unless he is really feeling low. He will let me touch him hug him etc, but he doesn't iniate unless he thinks I'm hurt. He is all over anything I post to fb immediately, unless it's a be positive quote like the "I believe in pink" by Audrey Hepburn.

Whatcha thinking Wonka? What kind of stuff would you suggest?

[Raine]

Hey life support team, I'm hanging, still hanging

You know, fathers and sons sometimes have this dynamic that seems to involve a huge "head butt" at some point to get each one to realize that they are both NOW men, with their own paths, and male way of doing things.

I have had this with my dad too. He likes to be in control. For sure where I got that trait from...YIKES! We had it out when I was pregnant with S#1. I was no longer his little girl that he wasn't going to tell what to do and we've been great ever since. In fact, I think I communicate with him better than anyone, including my mom. I can get him to turn his head in the "right" direction with family matters and dealing with my brothers.

Last night we had quite the discussion where he kept saying, "Don't you think if H could just get in front of a counselor and start talking he would be fine?" I said, yes of course, if he wanted to and instigated it. Doesn't do any good until he wants it.

Everyone in my life seems to think they have the quick fix solution. My Dad kept saying, maybe you should talk to my Uncle who is a PHd. I agree he would be really good at this, but I'm not involving family. The whole reason of going to therapy is so you can talk and never see that person again or have them involved in your actual life. I told my Dad that I try to not even talk to him and my mom about stuff for that reason.

Your H's description of his new crowd of friends is pretty interesting. They probably show him a lot of respect and make him feel important, like a bunch of 9th graders looking up to a senior at MLC High.

Yes for sure they do. He talks it up really big when he is out with them. He is in a completely different stage of life, success, career, etc. To them he probably looks like he has it all made, and being able to go out whenever he wants. How can it get better than that? He has recounted stories to me where he has blown up at people because he "knows" and they don't. I do think this group of friends feeds his ego something sever. And it is interesting he has negative things to say about all of them.

They don't want the true friends who might question them or hold that mirror up to show them how they're really acting. Only those that are willing to take the trip to la la land with them will do!

So true! I feel like my H has been doing this for a long time. He doesn't go to lunch with other managers or work in to higher groups. He hangs around with the entry level women, old and young. Kind of plays into his insecurities I would think. Although at other times he acts like big man on campus and talks about interacting with the VPs. It's just not where he seeks his friendship pool from. I love your sense of humor too. Good thing they can't take that away!

T, an MLC binky - hmmmm. I am going to add it to my new MLC line - along with the MLC patience shovel, OW phone and webcam clothes and caskets.

Let me know when you get your etsy site going! I want to be your first customer! Thanks uR for everything. You have been there at some dark times this last week.

[Verum]

No I haven't kept a journal like that. I haven't tried things really either. I've just been myself and I've just gotten out of the way as much as possible. I've followed his lead on reconnection except one thing I iniated. So I play a lot of phone games. He now has people over to the house about 3 times a week, at least for the past three weeks he has, so I am a part of it. I join in and he is concerned about me having a good time. I iniated chilling out with him some nights, rubbing his back, listening to a podcast or music. He lets me rub his back, snuggle against him. I feel like he needs that. It's all very innocent, but had a good convo with T2 about it and I feel it is good for connecting. He will drop any Convo with ow and put away his phone if I ask him if he wants to listen to a podcast. Always yes. He'll go do anything with me and wants to be invited unless he is really feeling low. He will let me touch him hug him etc, but he doesn't iniate unless he thinks I'm hurt. He is all over anything I post to fb immediately, unless it's a be positive quote like the "I believe in pink" by Audrey Hepburn.

Whatcha thinking Wonka? What kind of stuff would you suggest?

I'm thinking your H doesn't want to lose you. So any actions that you take that make it seem like you might not be there for him, will tend to draw him closer. This is one reason GAL helps and being mysterious helps.

[Wonka]

Whatcha thinking Wonka? What kind of stuff would you suggest?

I have this niggling feeling that there's a clear, although hidden from us unseen, pattern to what's causing H's spiraling...the problem is that we don't have the data to see how it clearly develops and unfolds. Hence the reason I've asked you to keep a solution journal...I bet we will all be surprised by what the Oracle reveals [yeah, I've christened your solution journal the 'Oracle'].

My sense is that when you are able to see the times that H plays the phone games with you, asking for back rubs, when he's feeling low. Something tells me that something is causing H to contact the OW furtively for certain reasons. He's seeking the OW for specific reasons...he is...he is...my frustration is not knowing what specific triggers led him to the OW. Do you see what I'm getting at here, Raine?

With the help from the Oracle, you will then be able to detect, what we hope here, some clear patterns emerge and it will give you the upper hand to the OW in meeting H's needs in the reconnection stage.

[BrightFuture]

Wonka, you are brilliant! I can’t wait to know “what the Oracle reveals”.