Emotional Connection and Attraction

[Hopeful321]

Accuray,

Thank you. You have helped me alot. I wish you well. I am here if you need to vent

[BC39]

I started getting really frustrated last night after W went to sleep with how things have been going lately.

As I've stated W has pulled back the affection for going on a month. No sex. I haven't pushed for it once and it hasn't seemed to affect her one bit.

I continue PMA and keep giving her affection...

I'm VERY frustrated but I'm not supposed to bring it up....

I understand the reasons I'm being told this but my emotions don't care at the moment.

I got up feeling the same way this morning.

My W could tell because she asked me on my way out the door "did I do something yesterday that upset you?"

I said "no, I'm just late for work and trying to rush", I gave her a hug and kiss and left.

It feels fake hiding my feelings.

When she asked me a question like that it seems fair and honest for me to say I've been feeling unvalidated and I'm just not happy with all of this and that some days it just gets to me.

Again, I understand why I'm being told not to do this, but I can't help but feel like she would respect me more for being human and having emotions.

Despite all my changes I don't think she respects me.

I go back and fourth with whether I should be taking the approach I'm being told here or taking more of a MMSLP approach.

If only I had a crystal ball

Sorry for the rant guys, just frustrated

[MrBond]

"taking more of a MMSLP approach."

And what EXACTLY would you be doing according to MMSLP. I've read it to, so what would be your plan?

"It feels fake hiding my feelings."

So why hide them? Why don't you tell her? Or at the very least, suggest C?

Look, the problem with those in Piecing is that they believe they have to continue to be distant, stay away, stuff feelings in, etc. They don't. That's not what DB is all about. DB helped to get you to the point where you are now, now it's time to take the next step in DB and that is to reconnect with your W. Do it slowly and naturally. Imagine her like she's someone you've met for the first time. What would you be doing if she was someone you just met? You wouldn't demand her have sex with you. That's who she is right now, a different person.

And in what way does she "show" you that she doesn't respect you? Not initiating sex with you isn't a sign of disrespect.

[Accuray]

MMSLP approach works best when your W works with you on it. The problem is that if that's not "you" then chances are you won't be able to keep it up and the erratic changes in your behavior will just confuse your wife. If you could just will yourself to be super confident and attractive you already would have. Don't torture yourself with that, be yourself. If you're the best man you can be and that's not good enough for her, then playing MMSLP games isn't going to help. The "caveman theory" his stuff is based on has also proven to be myth. Early humans didn't practice monogamy, they practiced group marriage and everyone pitched in to do everything because that was the most efficient way to survive.

If you're working together on your marriage you have the right to expect to have sex. You should discuss this with her and agree on some frequency you will maintain. That will relieve your anxiety and relieve pressure on any given night if it doesn't happen. If she won't work with you on that, then you're not really piecing you are still DB'ing.

The difference is that piecing implies you are both committed to making your marriage work, which means you both fear losing it if you don't do the work.

Does she fear losing you right now?

How about that summary?

[BC39]

"It feels fake hiding my feelings."

So why hide them? Why don't you tell her? Or at the very least, suggest C?

I thought I was being told not to talk to her about it, I must have miss understood.

I'm waiting for the opportune time to bring up C. I'm confident she'll apprehensive.

Look, the problem with those in Piecing is that they believe they have to continue to be distant, stay away, stuff feelings in, etc. They don't. That's not what DB is all about. DB helped to get you to the point where you are now, now it's time to take the next step in DB and that is to reconnect with your W. Do it slowly and naturally. Imagine her like she's someone you've met for the first time. What would you be doing if she was someone you just met? You wouldn't demand her have sex with you. That's who she is right now, a different person.

The differences between DBing and piecing has been a big stumbling block for me. I was already piecing when I came to this forum.

My W has said she wants to work on our marriage since I've been here, but there's times when I've questioned or had doubts about that. Its those times I'm doubting things that I'm not sure I should be DBing or piecing.

And in what way does she "show" you that she doesn't respect you? Not initiating sex with you isn't a sign of disrespect.

I wasn't referring directly the S as a sign of disrespect.

She mentioned during BD a year ago that she thought she lost respect for me, she hadn't been proud of me for a long time etc

I'm a different person now then I was then, but I'm obviously not going to ask her "do you respect me now'?

Her actions show she does, but the attraction is still missing and attraction and respect are intertwined.

And that's when I start thinking about the whole MMSLP thing...

And what EXACTLY would you be doing according to MMSLP. I've read it to, so what would be your plan?

I don't have a plan. I guess I was referring to being more assertive and not sweeping my feelings under the rug. But you answered that for me above.

To be clear I think there are many good points in the book, but a lot of it is junk.

I just get the feeling at times I've been too "beta" the last year trying to "fix" my marriage. Trying not to rock the boat.

The message in MMSLP about women saying they want one thing (usually more beta) but actually want another subconsciously (more alpha) gets me thinking sometimes.

I was (so I thought) more of the alpha type prior to BD. In retrospect a lot of that so called alpha was actually me taking her for granted, being aloof, getting complacent etc, which isn't alpha at all. On top of that my whole anxiety/panic disorder inadvertently made W the leader of our household.

I've changed all those things. I guess I stupidly hope that now that I've changed all those things that my W "attraction" would just magically come back.


Sorry, this post is kind of all over the place, hope some of it makes sense

[BC39]

MMSLP approach works best when your W works with you on it. The problem is that if that's not "you" then chances are you won't be able to keep it up and the erratic changes in your behavior will just confuse your wife. If you could just will yourself to be super confident and attractive you already would have. Don't torture yourself with that, be yourself. If you're the best man you can be and that's not good enough for her, then playing MMSLP games isn't going to help. The "caveman theory" his stuff is based on has also proven to be myth. Early humans didn't practice monogamy, they practiced group marriage and everyone pitched in to do everything because that was the most efficient way to survive.

I think some of it is me. I'm typically a confident person, although my confidence pre BD was miss guided (see my above post to Bond).

Valid points though ^^^

If you're working together on your marriage you have the right to expect to have sex. You should discuss this with her and agree on some frequency you will maintain. That will relieve your anxiety and relieve pressure on any given night if it doesn't happen. If she won't work with you on that, then you're not really piecing you are still DB'ing

I will discuss this with her. W has given me mixed messages the last few months when it come to S.

The difference is that piecing implies you are both committed to making your marriage work, which means you both fear losing it if you don't do the work.

We've had a couple low points since piecing (one was recently) but she has still come out of it saying she wants to work on M.

Does she fear losing you right now?

EXCELLENT question. I don't know the answer. If you asked me that a couple months ago I would have leaned toward a yes, but lately, I don't know.

(When she feared losing me in October she had an "awakening" and begged me to work on M with her)

It is that very question that leads me to one of my MAJOR hang ups. Does she NEED to fear losing me? Do I make it too easy on her when she knows I'm not going anywhere?

I think this ^^^^ is a major reason I didn't spill all my feelings to her in the past. BUT its because of this she didn't feel loved enough.

Its conflicting and I completely contradict myself. I REALLY need to work on this and could use some help with it.

How about that summary?

I will definitely do this. I just haven't had time and its going to take some thought. Writing down or explaining my sitch and thoughts is not a strength of mine so it will probably take me a while

Just heading out with the family to go camping for the weekend

[MrBond]

First of all, let me make something very clear. You're not in PIECING. Piecing is when the WAS ACTIVELY participates in getting the marriage back together. And that means a willingness to see to YOUR needs as much as hers. That if you said you'd like to go to C, she'd be like..."let's go!". Right now she's not doing that.

"I thought I was being told not to talk to her about it, I must have miss understood."

Yes you did.

"I'm waiting for the opportune time to bring up C. I'm confident she'll apprehensive."

Of course she will be. But ultimately if your needs aren't being met and neither are hers, you will remain stuck in the same place until one of you decides to leave. If she's serious about Piecing, she'll go.

"The differences between DBing and piecing has been a big stumbling block for me. I was already piecing when I came to this forum."

Have you actually read and UNDERSTOOD DB? DB is an ongoing process for life. The primary philosophy of DB is to do what works and stop what doesn't. If what you're doing doesn't draw back your W, then do something else. Simple as that.

And again, you're not in Piecing.

"My W has said she wants to work on our marriage since I've been here, but there's times when I've questioned or had doubts about that."

Of course because she's been giving you alot of lip service. She's been doing little things here and there, which is fine, but until she takes ACTION to actually correct the mistakes from the past, you are not in piecing.

"Its those times I'm doubting things that I'm not sure I should be DBing or piecing."

Again, DB is ongoing. There's no difference.

"She mentioned during BD a year ago that she thought she lost respect for me, she hadn't been proud of me for a long time etc"
"Her actions show she does, but the attraction is still missing and attraction and respect are intertwined."

No it's not. You respect your teachers and your boss and a world leader. But it doesn't make you attracted to them.

"And that's when I start thinking about the whole MMSLP thing..."

Let's get a few things out of the way about MMSLP.
1) Athol is NOT a professional C. He is just a guy who started a blog and makes money off a book he wrote saying that he knows the "key" to a great M'd sex life. He has been accused of fraud in the past and basically uses the site to make money and has no face to face interactions with any of those he claims to counsel.

2)Even in his blog he claims that he's never problems in his M, so he's not exactly the best source of reference for those dealing with issues.

3) There's something that ALL marriages have in common. Baggage and past issues of both the WAS and LBS. Things happened in your past and your W's past that are stopping that "attraction". Believe me, women can hold grudges forever even though they say they don't. Your W built that wall between you for reason. You can help her to slowly take it down.

"I don't have a plan. I guess I was referring to being more assertive and not sweeping my feelings under the rug. But you answered that for me above."

Now I'm not advising that you go all weepy over her, but just be honest. That's when you know you're in Piecing. If she says that she's willing to go to C and address your issues as much as you are willing to do for hers, then you're in Piecing.

"To be clear I think there are many good points in the book, but a lot of it is junk."

Because it's one man's opinion. Ever see his blog? 99% are all guys. Ask the women on here about it and they'll tell you it's all rubbish. I'd rather trust the women's opinion than the guy's as to what they feel is attractive.

"I just get the feeling at times I've been too "beta" the last year trying to "fix" my marriage. Trying not to rock the boat."

That's two different things. Bottom line is that your M did need fixing. But your W should have been doing the same if you were truly in Piecing.

"The message in MMSLP about women saying they want one thing (usually more beta) but actually want another subconsciously (more alpha) gets me thinking sometimes."

There's nothing wrong with taking the charge and leading. Sometimes that means to be honest with your W and telling her that YOU are not happy and that things have to change or else you are moving on. There's nothing "alpha" or "beta" about it. Women will do the same thing.

"I was (so I thought) more of the alpha type prior to BD. In retrospect a lot of that so called alpha was actually me taking her for granted, being aloof, getting complacent etc, which isn't alpha at all."

YOu were interested in her and did whatever you took to make her happy when you were dating. Then when you got M'd, you figured that you had her for life and started taking her for granted, instead focusing on your job or hobbies or whatever. There's no "alpha" about it. It's called marriage. It naturally happens to everyone.

"On top of that my whole anxiety/panic disorder inadvertently made W the leader of our household."

No, your panic disorder is what pushed her away and turned her off. No one wants to be with someone (male or female) who they think are going to go off on them at any time. It's like living with a bomb.

"I've changed all those things. I guess I stupidly hope that now that I've changed all those things that my W "attraction" would just magically come back."

Again, it's not about "attraction". Your W is afraid that you're going to go right back to the way things are so her guard is still up. There's a basic timeline that some people follow. They say that it takes 1 month of hardcore Piecing (counseling, sex, understanding, etc.) for every year of M to get things right. You're not close to that.

[lovethehub]

I completely understand how you feel. It can be very, very frustrating, however, try not to let it get the best of you. It may take her a while to work through her inner demons. Do you want to be standing there when she does of have her looking at your back as you walk out the door?

[HopefulStill]

BC39,
Mr.Bond refers to the wall built up in your wife's heart- I think he's nailed that. Just as I told you in a previous post, your wife is in what Dr. Harley refers to as "withdrawel". Essentially, she's put a wall up that blocks all of your attempts to reach her heart. When you act pouty or whiny because YOUR needs aren't being met, all it does is close her heart further. Want to stand up and be a "man"? Quit whining about what you're not getting! There are only two ways to get what you want:

1. Practice patience, draw her out of withdrawel by showing that you are a safe person to express her feelings to. Put her needs first during this process, leave yours on the back burner for now. Create a new marriage together built on partnership and mutual care.

Or

2. Divorce her and find someone new.

Sorry to come off so strong here, but you are trying to fix your marriage by trying to GET from her, rather than GIVING to her. I see that in the times that you give, it's because you expect a reciprocal "get". With that attitude you will always be disappointed.

You are not on this board saying "hey folks! What else can I do to make my wife feel more understood and loved?". Instead, you complain about your wife not having sex with you. I can read your posts from my wife's perspective and can tell you with absolute certainty that she would agree with your wife's lack of desire to be intimate with you.

Instead of repeating yourself like a broken record here, or coming up with arguments that defend your stance, take the time to actually DIGEST what others have written here to you. I already went through all of this pain in my marriage, and came out the other side. I am only on these boards to pay it forward. I am interested in helping you succeeded in winning back your wife's heart. But it is a waste of my time if you only read what I take the time to write just to counter point it.

It's very simple- your wife is not attracted to you. She is not attracted to you because she is not in love with you. She is STILL not in love with you because you are pushing her heart into "withdrawl". Her heart is in withdrawel to keep you from repeatedly hurting it. Read about it. UNDERSTAND IT. Trust me, it makes the world so much clearer. If you stay in this stalemate with both you and your wife trying to get your own needs met first, you will end up in divorce court. She, or both of you, will lose hope.

I apologize for the tone of my email- but it is frustrating to watch you spin your wheels in the mud when the dry road is so close. If you keep spinning them, your going to dig yourself into a hole that you won't be able to get out of.

[BC39]

Journal

Had a great time camping with W and kids this weekend.

W got into the shower with me this morning. I figured I'd take the uninterrupted alone time to talk to her.

(I didn't show any emotion during convo, I just tried to listen and understand)

I asked her how she'd been feeling as I've noticed she's pulled back on her affections for the last month or so.

She started by saying she's been consumed with thoughts of work (She started her own business and is still working for my family company. She does both from home. She's been very busy).

She went on to say that she's had a hard time wanting to try to be intimate with me. I asked her if she was referring to sex or affection or both. She said both.

I asked her (told her I was just trying to understand) about a few months ago when she complained she was always the one that had to initiate sex lately. During that same time she also complained that "I didn't try very hard" after I made a comment about her turning me down for S. She didn't really answer me.

I said if we keep going on day to day like this that nothing is going to change. I told her she's not just going to wake up one morning and the feelings are going to be back.

I asked her about the last year and all the affection and intimacy she's shown me up until recently.

She said she'd been "trying". (It didn't feel like "trying" most of the time to me, but it's obvious that's how she feels)

I told her I thought we should be doing MC again. She agreed to go back.

She said she's seen all the changes in me and that it's made her more frustrated that it hasn't changed the way she feels.

I asked her if anything else has changed in out sitch since last month other than work. She said no.

Afterward I took her face in my hands and said "you know I would do anything for you right?". She said she did.

I know none of this is new information, and I try to stay strong, but every time I actually hear W saying these things my heart breaks a little bit more each time.