"you've been thru SOOOOOO MUCH FOR SOOOOLONG - (don't hate me for thinkin/sayin this ) maybe you've been thru the "worst parts" and now are impatient for an end to it- you know, darkest before the dawn kind of thing? i hate to even think it- but who the heck knows???"
I'm hoping this for Dawn too, Nero. Hoping hoping praying and hoping. Dawn have you ever read reachingHigher's threads? She and her H were on the edge of divorce. He turned it around and came home, but still put her thru hell for a couple of months dipping back into his replay activities. He's doing them less and less. It's a long slow process.
Thanks you both so much, I have been thinking that maybe I am being impatient for an end, and I see that I have gone through most of the worst parts. What kills me is the depression.
Thanks Linda for the stages....I have them copied as well but only when you put it out there did I read it again. I have learned that H suffered from dep pretty much his whole life, growing strong in his teen yrs, and as he got older coming up with really off the walls way to get " over" it!
I M the man I brought out of him, through unconditional L, humor, trust, affection, he gave me the man he always wanted to be. Now he's soo beat down by life his dep took him away.
I am actually really into psychology, I would be there for him, work OT to be available if he asked. But, he sees it as an evil in him, he says I'm dep...two min later...this isn't dep it's my darkness, that's why I want to separate myself.
It's just all really become sickening to me...he has a great family and he " wants" to stay stuck, his words.
Last night he said how could you and the kids have done anything wrong, it's me, I feel this creeping in me and when I'm like this I have no control. It won't let me worry about eating, or your feelings, or my life, when I say leave I mean leave you here to not get sucked into my hole.
See that's all just babble to me...and after so many years it has gone from serious concern, to OMG really! I don't like that I think of him like that, I'm really at the STFU stage, it's meaningless words, so I said, I'm well aware as to what " it " is, and walked away.
I'm not running away Nero, not as far as I know. He can't run this house. It's my house, and thankfully we don't live large, the bills could be sized down and paid if he dropped out.
I agree about getting work, it's not easy though, and I am coming out as a SAHM.
I could have a life right here, enjoy my family, work, GAL, all that, it's hard to get past that sickening felling of him acting like a ghost right in front of me, that's what he calls himself here. I got angry and said be a human, he said for what!
That is my prob tho, it is something I need to work on, it sounds like I have resentment towards him to work thru, and I do.
I need to take a vacation....I'm looking at the first week of August to see where I can get away to. H will be working variously at that time and will be coming home hyped up, and exhausted every night, I don't want to be here to see his fake happiness mood, only to have him drop when the gig is over.
No wifey poo here, unless he still holds on to a clean house and constant soap in the bath, I don't do anything for him personally, but I guess I don't have to, he knows I'm not going to live in squaller to spite him.
He called me starter than him, in a better position that him, and in control here, does he want me to do something? Am I missing the larger pic? I have to learn to be more forceful, I'm a mush, my kids say it.
I'm going to look for that getaway! By car or plain I need this!
Also, Linda I will read RHs threads, I am very interested! Thanks ladies! Your words help me wake up and have a positive start.
The past can't be ahead of you in the future. You don't have to figure it all out, just pick a direction. What's next...I don't know but I can't wait!
Wow, my typing is bad, it's that thumb typing, and iPads corrections that screw me up!
H does a really good job at talking to me, he keeps the conversation going and gets angry when I am not able to hear between his babble. When he says I don't get to use the driveway to clean out my tools because your car is in there and now I'm not ready for work, I take it as blaming me!
He gets frustrated w me and says, no, how could I be blaming you, your not doing anything wrong, I can't move your car because I'm to erratic and i have messed up everyone's car moving them. It's nothing your doing or them.
When Linda says and then I read above in stages that he is living w a lot of guilt, I for some reason don't see it, as if I do, then I'm making excuses for him that he doesn't deserve. I want him to be the bad guy without excuses because he hurt me so much!
He's so insistent on being there in any way he can for us other than personally, because he is not a person. He is almost begging me to have fun and live and enjoy the family and our home!?
Why is that hard for me! Do I not trust that, am I fighting the part where I am doing this without my partner? I don't like being and island. He called them my kids, he's not a F, by his own standards of how he's not even human!
Funny, if I'm home w him I feel contempt or hate, or even see him as an idiot. If I'm out all day when I return I see his as sad, lonely, broken. If he's gone all day I feel free, wishing he never return, more able to enjoy my home and family!
When he's out he puts me completely out of his mind, he says, so he can be rebellious and stay away from dep. his crazy way of healing! He says when he does call me, I remind him of home, make him feel tired and put to much goodness out there for him just in my voice??!
He calls EA because she sounds like a Mac truck and it's driver in one, excuse me while I hack all over the phone
I am convinced its not about me at all, that only took forever, but what do I do with that?
The past can't be ahead of you in the future. You don't have to figure it all out, just pick a direction. What's next...I don't know but I can't wait!
"I M the man I brought out of him, through unconditional L, humor, trust, affection, he gave me the man he always wanted to be. Now he's soo beat down by life his dep took him away.
I am actually really into psychology, I would be there for him, work OT to be available if he asked. But, he sees it as an evil in him, he says I'm dep...two min later...this isn't dep it's my darkness, that's why I want to separate myself.
Last night he said how could you and the kids have done anything wrong, it's me, I feel this creeping in me and when I'm like this I have no control. It won't let me worry about eating, or your feelings, or my life, when I say leave I mean leave you here to not get sucked into my hole."
That is SO sad Dawn. My H used almost the same words, but did not seem as bad. Have you tried talking to your H's doctor? Although talking to mine did not get me anywhere.
My H went thru this really depressed period after RT went back to Russia, and said that he felt empty, dead inside, uninterested in anything including RT and me. He refused to ask his doctor about anti-depressants. When I asked on his behalf, he told the doctor he would not take them even if they were prescribed, and she did not even ask him about his depression. I was so angry. He said he saw it as a weakness that Americans take medication for everything. Of course, now I know that he was adopting RT's belief about taking medication. He stopped taking his antibiotics and heart medicine at that point too, and started eating RT's fermented oatmeal mess.
Does your H still talk to that alcoholic mess he was hooked up with? Maybe she is contributing to his depression? I remember you saying that his moods are up and down, happy and joking one minute and depressed the next. I don't know much about depression, but I thought that depressed people STAY depressed. Maybe they joke, I'm not sure. Maybe you should try talking to his doctor.
"I need to take a vacation....I'm looking at the first week of August to see where I can get away to. H will be working variously at that time and will be coming home hyped up, and exhausted every night, I don't want to be here to see his fake happiness mood, only to have him drop when the gig is over."
I think that would be so good for you Dawn, to get away for a while. Maybe with a girlfriend or with the kids? It will re-energize your PMA, and to get a bit of a break from all of the gloominess your H is imposing on you. At least one of your kids is a daughter right? Maybe a stay at a spa for the two of you? A week at the shore? When is your grandchild due? That will be fun for you!
I am convinced its not about me at all, that only took forever, but what do I do with that?
short version: nothing. just do what you're doing & KNOW it. that helps YOU...value you while you wait for him to (possibly) value you too. or idk
hey hi- in prior post you said you "have alot of resentment" - me too. i feeel also that i just see him as the bad guy- i've been "making excuses" for him - or putting good spin on his wierdities for my whole life. in light of his treason- i can't any more. i got nothin
MAYBE HE'S shoved me into mini mlc-like "attitude" here or something exotic like that.
i thought it was okay- i thought he was okay- i am A GIANT MUSH bucket too. my sister & neice are always telling me i'm a good egg and people talk to me "like that" because i don't go ballistic - i let them speak. and I'm the only one that takes care of people in the family (?) wtf?? i don't go bonkers. iow - i'm a giant doormat.
i flip and flop on "fighting" that, what i am - who i am. do you too?
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I want him to be the bad guy without excuses because he hurt me so much!
you have your wish - he is the bad guy ...
how could ANYONE hurt us & keep rite on? i'm askin ya. and they do. all the psycho babble aside (i'm tired to the bone of analyzing and finding out why- idc anymore - it's their choices to hurt us (along with whatever insanity they may have ) . i'm sayin - we allllll suck up the repurcussions of our actions - allll of us... (i'm not sure the world cares WHY we do it- just that we pay the price).
i do not see any pain & guilt in my h. he's perfectly happy to go along jacking me around while i mind my ps & qs and go boink her and think he's just "having it all". he is - isn't he?
he only laughed when i told him he is rotten and his pecker should fall off and his ed is merely that his "uh hem" has a conscience , whereas he does not.
he's got the sufficient screwed up past & chldhood to fit books' description - but i'm not seein pain. oh well huh.
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He is almost begging me to have fun and live and enjoy the family and our home!?
Heeeey - my h too. he's always saying go outside and enjoy the garden - do stuff you love. i always think it's just him urging me to have fun becasue he is a total ratty $hit and boinking ow or thinking about it. guilt guilt guilt. idk - what else would it be - love??? yeah rite- makin myself choke on my coke.
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Funny, if I'm home w him I feel contempt or hate, or even see him as an idiot. If I'm out all day when I return I see his as sad, lonely, broken. If he's gone all day I feel free, wishing he never return, more able to enjoy my home and family!
i've got this going on a bit too- when he's here- i am forced to see i do not feel what i think i should - or did - (well, better than when he's gone)!!?? when he's been gone awhile i'm more relaxed - when he comes i am sympathetic a bit to him & like him more initially - by the time he goes (i hate that he goes & hate him- i want to run him over.) his constant "running back to her- his wonderful life down in stinking fla without me in it- makes me ill." he's sooooo AFRAID to leave florida - cant leave his hometown - can't can't can't (grow up)
i guess for the years he practiced law he was an adult and now it's all over.
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When he's out he puts me completely out of his mind,
i hate this bit too - i got alot of hostility- ya notice.
here's me on this junk - i haven't been anylyzing alot because i'm not seein the pain or confusion. it seems to fit the description in books - BUT this guy is not tortured that i can see.
what you say - it's me too. i've put "his problems" out of my mind - they don't exist to me. i'm merely dbing and riding along for want of something better to be doing- and because initially my reaction was wtf - i'm not handing over my life without a bit of a fight. this is about ME - we all know how we got here - - now how do i fix it??? idk
maybe i'm losing the fight and don't see it? my h is nicer- cozy now and then- i don't see any major change. i'm still confused about what i think of him- he is hanging on but i honestly think if i blew dodge he'd just get over it quickly and not blink an eye. i do not feel valuable to him or a crucial part of his life anymore. maybe i never was- i am mushy and incredibly "easy".
the jerk- he picked me. he should have picked on someone his own size. should have picked a flaming b!tch and then she could kick him around and he could lick her boots for his whole life.
this crappola is making me sick rite now. hot flashing allover town from my mother b!tching at me while i'm looking for the stupid teeth- i'd say it's the dementia - but she's been ratty longer than crazy. i'm calling around to find where can make new ones ASAP = she's over there re-reading wacky rantings she wrote down - which she is sure she wrote back in 1969 when my dad died. and calling to tell me / ask me about it - then if i answer anything she yells NO - OH GOD - WHAT A messed up p.o.s. life this moment.
anyway-
whatever it is YOU'VE GOT_ - i've got same disease. nOW, WHAT is the cure???
How brave of you to question your thoughts of leaving and post on a board filled with marriage-saving diehards...One thing is for sure, you're right about the fact that divorce wouldn't necessarily make your life easier. It's hard to feel lonely in a marriage, I agree. So do something to change that. You can do it the DB way. Michele!
I found this thread that was very interesting and the W speaks more in the way I do, she's reaches a point of considering being done. I like Michelle's message to her, and I do agree about D having it's own set of problems, I do tinker w the idea tho, and I do see how change can be make right here and now on my part.
What did I read...leave for change or change before leaving, I'm sorry I forgot where I read this, but it is very smart!
Still stuck on the how, for myself! I wish I could afford a coach, my C is dull, I need an aggressive approach for myself.
I'm not in L w my H as most of you describe, I think it's the dep that has caused the biggest wedge between us, yes, even more than EA - she's just a stupid looser he talks to - the dep is the big killer in this R.
It's what tells him he's not worthy or happy so why should he try to be in a R w me. So my efforts are futile!
I keep remembering it's not me...I hear it...I believe him...somehow it's not easier.
if I'm home w him I feel contempt or hate, or even see him as an idiot. If I'm out all day when I return I see his as sad, lonely, broken. If he's gone all day I feel free, wishing he never return, more able to enjoy my home and family
The past can't be ahead of you in the future. You don't have to figure it all out, just pick a direction. What's next...I don't know but I can't wait!
Wow, Michelle herself answered that woman's post? I didn't realize she is actually active in this forum.
I agree, divorce solves one problem (gets rid of the marriage) but causes a whole slew of other problems -- "divorce wouldn't necessarily make your life easier."
I like that you wrote "I do see how change can be make right here and now on my part." there are many changes you can make to help your R, including a little vacation break from him.
But "if I'm home w him I feel contempt or hate, or even see him as an idiot. If I'm out all day when I return I see his as sad, lonely, broken. If he's gone all day I feel free, wishing he never return, more able to enjoy my home and family"
Dawn, that brought tears to my eyes. Contempt, hate? This is killing you. And he is probably able to feel the contempt and hate in your heart for him. I know I have felt it from my own H, he has looked at me with such contempt sometimes that my heart and hope just withered inside me. It hurts to know someone hates you Dawn. I'm sure that is not helping your H's depression and self-loathing. Of course he doesn't feel worthy of you. Do you think he's aware of your feelings towards him?
It must be so so hard for you to try to DB with no love or even fondness Dawn. I give you so much credit for trying. Maybe a coach would help you more than your dud of a counselor. It comes to about $400 for 3 sessions. I think it's worth it, my coach has helped me a lot.
Linda
Me 65, Ex 64 M 38 y 2 adult S, 4 G-Kids MLC 11/07 BD 12/09 D 3/14 Dating nice guy 7/14 Engaged to nice guy 12/17
Linda Hi, is it that bad to hate someone...I think it is one of many emotions I have and will go through w H. What comes after hate, well to me, expectance that he is what he his now and it's on me to change my sitch. I always see in myself if I hate someone, they are still in my heart. He's lucky...I don't hate my mom, I don't L her either
Contempt, hate? This is killing you.
Yes, it is hurting me daily to walk around with this in my mind when he's here, it's not healthy but it is my truth I have to let out for now and not bottle inside me.
It's really not as bad as it sounds because that is for this not-H of mine. The guy on the surface that I will not allow to hurt me again. So see it's superficial. H is weird, if he thought I hated him he would call it an honor to have me hate him. He's not sensitive like that!
a little vacation break from him.
I'm working on this one, but I don't have friends, not like that. Yes, I have one D19, she's the youngest and we're freakishly close. I am considering a drive to Michigan, maybe hit the outlet stores.
Do you think he's aware of your feelings towards him?
No. In earlier posts I call myself a fraud, expressing how I validate, listen, and react if he asks for help. I was getting sick of that for myself, I stopped and now I do listen until I have to WAW, but I do it as a boundary saying, ok, this I will not listen to.
He thinks I still want him to walk in those doors, no effort on his part to make amends. He thinks my L holds him here, I think he tells himself that so he "stays for me" as he's said, when really he doesn't want to leave.
I am still considering a coach, my concern is that the first session is used up trying to explain from the beginning. How did you explain your sitch, your concerns w/o it taking up all the first min?
I read a book yesterday on dep...I am getting some good insight on just how bad he has it. Maybe it's the dep I hate w H's face attached! In the end I am supposed to make sure I take care of myself no matter how H reacts.
That quote above was very old, I like to read the archives so I can follow the life of MLC. I am also reading alot about D and almost D's that bounced back, it helps me understand all of my options and the fallout of them all.
I have been reading more Christian lit. as it's how H and I first connected, it's nice to read that even a M so deep rooted in misery (as mine) can be brought back, I know it's in His hands if I just trust the process, also like DBing
I cried the whole time reading that article Dawn, thank you so much. I'm glad your H does not know how much he annoys you, that you are able to DB and not let him know, just like that woman in the article was so annoyed by her H and he seemed sort of oblivious. Since I now know that you are a believer, I will tell you why I love my H so much. Most people have acted like I"m nuts (MLC? ) when I tell them this story, but it's true.
He started acting very nasty in fall 2009, and had a million complaints about me. Little things like it annoyed him that I waited until I finished cleaning the house before taking a shower, true things like I was too fat (the MLC diet took care of that!), and things I could not control like being too short. He gave me that I love you but am not in love with you speech on January 9, 2010. I read his email, and learned that he was having a very hot, x-rated online affair with one of his language pen pals from Russia. I hated him, was filled with contempt and bitterness. A couple of days later, he was playing the piano, and I was sitting on the couch glaring at his back. I started praying "Lord, H is wrong, he is doing wrong to me, show him the error of his ways and make him love me again." I swear Dawn, that I heard a voice say out loud "Linda you can not change your H, but you can change yourself." And I was filled with the most overwhelming love for him. Amazing overwhelming pure love. My H does not believe me, even though I still feel the same love today, over three years later. He says the only reason I love him is because I am in danger of losing him. But it is not true. Anyway, I just wanted to share that with you. It was a pretty amazing experience, and I've always longed to hear that voice again, but never have.
Yes, you're right about feeling hate. I guess you cannot help your feelings, but just need to live them, accept them, and try to let them go. And it does mean that he is still in your heart, even if it is in an annoying way. I am just afraid that it is eating you up inside.
I do not know how to stop hating. I hate my H's girl friend. Hate her. Truly hate her. I have not asked for forgiveness, and have not asked God to help me to love her, because I do not want to give up my hate yet. I recognize that about myself. I think when I am done writing this, I need to go and ask for forgiveness and for some help with this horrible feeling.
I read something on facebook once that said harboring hate and forgiveness in your heart is like eating poison and expecting the other person to die. He or she is not even aware of your feeling, but it is eating you up.
You are right that explaining your sitch to the DB coach can take up the entire first session. The sessions are only 50 minutes long, and I figured I should not take more than half that time explaining. What I did was to type out everything I wanted to tell him, and then read it out loud while timing myself. Hahaha, I think it took well over an hour. Then I trimmed out all of the less important things, and actually added some other stuff I"d forgotten, until I got it down to 25 minutes. Then I read it to Chuck. He asked me a couple of questions while I was reading it, but I went back to my script so I could get the whole thing in. I had also made a list of things I wanted to ask him, like HOW LONG WOULD THIS TAKE (Don't bother asking that it's a waste of time, he said 3 to 5 years, maybe up to 7 years), and also whether I should institute No Contact and the Last Resort Technique. Because a lot of people on this list were telling me to institute that, also to kick him out or give him an ultimatum. Since I tried to organize myself, the session was pretty helpful. Chuck answered my questions and gave me a lot of suggestions about things I could do to help my relationship. For our next session, I was a big fat mess. My H had just told me he plans to go to Moscow to boink RT for a month, and I again made a list of questions, like what I should do and what I should say. Chuck was so helpful. He asked me what kind of things my H does and says that "push my buttons," and gave me very specific things I could say and do at those times. He also asked what things I thought about myself had made my H fall in love with me 38 years ago, and told me to try to do those things and act that way again.
It's pretty expensive, because you have to lay out the money for all three sessions at once, but well worth it I think.
"I have been reading more Christian lit. as it's how H and I first connected, it's nice to read that even a M so deep rooted in misery (as mine) can be brought back, I know it's in His hands if I just trust the process, also like DBing"
Yes, all things are possible with God, even straightening out a crazy MLCer! And restoring our marriages. I love you Dawn, sorry if I have been preachy. It's a big fault of mine, sorry.
you guys, you know, i frequently have to just say out loud i hate h (i've even said it to his stupid face now or then) he laughs (probably soooo egocentric thinks it's "for effect"
when is ay it tho- i do - and i hate ow as well.. it's just feels better to say it out loud rather than just mull it over and keep it inside . inside is where the damage gets done.
yell at something of his or the phone or his picture. .
I THINK THO - that as long as we've even got the juice and energy to think in terms of Hate & need to say it - we probably don't really at the end of the day. (hate them). it's a passionate thing- response to being hurt. so- passion is still attached to some part of our r with them. did that make sense- somehow they inspire strong emotions.
my thinking is that when we reach a point when we don't even care- are totally dispassionate and NEURTAL as in they don't even register in our hearts & minds - then it's a dangerous place.
that is when we are DONE with them and the whole thing. INDIFFEERENCE is waaaay worst than hate (imho) i think indifference is the end.
Linda - boy do i know what you mean when you say you talk and see the stinking hostility or disdain in their face. there have been times i swear, i could have, well, i don't know what.
it was sooo obvious, so hurtful, SOOOOO UNFAIR. SUCH A STINKING RAW DEAL. his own junk - whatever it is inside him - telling his stupid brain it's alllllll my fault. if only life were THAT easy huh?
hasn't happened in awhile now- i can remember with twinge of pain = judged & hung for a crime you never committed...
,man, is there anything worse in life than being on the receiving end of injustice. not much.
anyway- just wanted to throw in my hate point of view. some days i have to say out loud i hate my mothr- it's such a giant dump-fest. even saying out loud i understand - i don't think i really do. even saying out loud i hate - i don't think i really do.
for cripes sake- i'm a mere mortal & not perfect. we all are- i get the brooding thing on bad emotions.
this is not that.
ONE OF MWD other books - maybe change yourself & everyone in your life (something like that) is good - i think she makes the point about FEELINGS - THEY ARE JUST THAT - FEELINGS.
FEELINGS CHANGE. YOU MAY FEEL THIS TODAY- THAT TOMORROW. DON'T PUT ALL THAT MUCH WEIGHT IN THEM - AND THINK TWICE ABOUT ACTING ON THEM- MAY FEEL DIFFERENTLY VERY SOON.
SOMEthing like that- it stuck with me. it's true. one of those ah ha kind of moments -=
with lack of sleep i hate the world. next day- well rested - i'm ready to keep going and try anything and even have a good mood. (and cut everyone a break) at least my own feelings are allover the place from day to day- minute to minute.
the difference iS DRAMATIC and makes her point.
so big deal - this minute i hate his stupid face because he did or said something ratty. next i am "fond" (at least) because i remember something truyly kind or generous and i remember olden days.
I started praying "Lord, H is wrong, he is doing wrong to me, show him the error of his ways and make him love me again." I swear Dawn, that I heard a voice say out loud "Linda you can not change your H, but you can change yourself." And I was filled with the most overwhelming love for him. Amazing overwhelming pure love.
I believe you 100 percent! When you pray there is always and answer, it just may not be in the form we want it in, when we want it, but when it hits you in the face that's when people question it! Your not doing that, your trusting in your answer, good for you!
Thanks so much Linda for sharing your story w me, I can't believe people think your nuts because of such a beautiful story. People thing I'm nuts for not have kicked H out, and for not having him thrown in a hospital back when he was manic. Walk in my shoes people...my mom was the worst!
I asked her abandoning a$$ (my whole life) to finally stay put and be my pillars of strength, her and my dad both said they were proud I asked. The pillars came crumbling down when I said no to D, and no to police escort to the hospital.
I was on that same diet, I only ate and slept MLC. I was a zombie this time last yr. TOnight at mid marks my one yr DBing and on this site, yea progress!
What I do about EA was I keep my enemy close. She's not at all trying to sleep w H so I don't worry about that, but believe me I hate her beyond comprehension, she is trying to squeeze $$$ out of him. She knows how to play him, abuse him so he comes back for more. She knows he's MLC, she's not stupid, just a POS!
I pray for H every day, sometimes I sneak in "take him" please I don't want him.
OW is not your H's GF, she is his crutch! There is no R there other than sickness and lies, and misery. The H OW gets is not a person you would want to be with or deal w as he spirals down, let her deal w him, take his sh!t, in the end they will hate each other. Then he will deal w his own fallout, while you have been GAL of your own, and then it will be your choice to let him in or not.
EA called me the other night saying, can you tell your H to leave me alone. Ha! Eat it, biotch! She still gets MLC crazy talking yelling guy!
Linda, I dont know where your in your detachement, but if my H was leaving I would offer him some luggage, it would confuse him, and it would make me feel free. If he comes out of this, one day, he will see the pill of sh!t he made, and could even be still sitting on, jump off and come looking for that little light we have all burning for our spouses.
Yes, all things are possible with God, even straightening out a crazy MLCer!
Trusting in that is the only thing that has gotten me through all of this, even if he is not straightened out, I am going to be!
Your not preachy at all...keep talking all you want, your stories and advice are genuine, I look forward to your posts. Have you read this....I love it, I hold on to it! Again, it's why I'm not afraid to let him go anymore. With love, Dawn Marie
) when I tell them this story, but it's true.