First a shout out to the regulars on the board for the support they've given me so far. My sitch, including observations I've made from seeing others experiences here, DR and therapy:
Got wife pregnant while engaged, now married 25 years, together 29. Son, 25, lives on his own. Daughter, 17, at home. Had (despite circumstances outlined below) what I would have considered a solid marriage, both of us from stable families, but money has always been a problem and source of stress. Moved A LOT (10 times in first 6 years we were married), back and forth across country for work, which sort of kept up a crisis mentality in the relationship. I now see that focusing on a baby from the beginning turned us away from each other when we should have been dreaming of a life together, plus the added financial stress of a infant to feed, care for, etc. My current job is the longest period of stability we've had (14 years), bought a house 7 years ago.
Other crises that have tested us: My mother getting an incurable neurological disorder and passing away about 6 years ago; our son having a catastrophic car accident while in college 6 states away, requiring serious physical therapy (W later told me this was the 1st time she "put herself 2nd"); our son breaking both ankles 2 years later (2009) with more physical therapy and rehabilitation; my father dying of a stroke in November 2010.
Summer of 2011 I was burned out at work, which only intensified the rest of that year and into 2012. W kept asking me to enter my employer’s assistance program for counseling, but I balked. Began to question my self-worth, slipping into depression, got a temper. Summer 2012, 25 year old son shatters vertebrae, 7 hour surgery, may never walk, rehab/physical therapy late summer, begins recovery (now 95% recovered).
Early November 2012 I enter weekly therapy. W goes to neighboring state 1st week of December to assist in cleaning up her grandmother’s farm, later remarks how calm it felt and not sure she wanted to go back to “all that excitement” at home. BD the weekend before Christmas. Holidays were tense. Neither of our families live nearby, so we were pretty much stuck in the house together. My therapist had given me a copy of a chapter from DB and that helped smooth things over a little, after I had the textbook reaction to W’s ultimatum, pleading, begging, etc. Early January W starts going to therapy but in no way wants to do any efforts toward marriage counseling. W says therapist is telling her she needs to move out and she begins looking for an apartment. Daughter will stay with me. I discover DR and DB.com, begin DBing. W is a textbook WAW. In mid January I find explicit text messages on W’s phone to a “friend,” accused her of having an affair, blew my stack. W denies affair, says they are just “fantasies.” W calls lawyer and makes appointment. I call lawyer, get scheduled first, we agree to use mine for D. Complaint filed. I help W look for an apartment, help her move on March 1st to apt 3 blocks away.
Since then, working on draft settlement agreement. I've repeatedly loaned her money for bills, filled her gas tank, bought her groceries several times, along with allowing her to take leftovers when she would check in on daughter before school. W stops going to therapy, saying that she “doesn't want to talk about it.” House is currently in foreclosure, and W helped with paperwork to get loan modified. Foreclosure should stop in September. We've agreed to do everything together that involves our daughter, including overnight campus visits and soccer games.
As I mentioned, W has said that all of our different crises made her put herself “second” and that she learned to repress her own feelings and thoughts, finally taking action and asserting herself (WAW!) in wanting a divorce. (I've mentioned to her that we can’t control what happens to us, but we can definitely control how we react.)
180s: Chilling out and not reacting. Taking (mostly) confident control of the household tasks. W has repeatedly said that she’s noticed I am more confident, but has also told me that she is sticking to the divorce because she didn't think I’d change and when she notices the changes she feels pressured and defensive (no additional clarification here).
GAL: Never stopped running and going to the gym, lost weight (she noticed this too). Training for a half-marathon, bought a kayak, gone out with friends more. Working on various projects around the house as money permits. Applied for an online editor position as an additional source of income.
It is hard to go dark when we need to discuss our daughter and bills several times a week. I am 90% calm and chilled, no R talk, and she no longer finds ways to remind me that she's not changing her mind. Generally amicable, but super-defensive of her actions and behavior. Seriously trying to limit contact, but need to shake things up as we continue to proceed toward divorce. Struggling with hopelessness and loneliness. Any suggestions? What would hope look like in this situation?
M:46 W:46 M:25;T:29 S:25; D:17 BD:12/22/12 D process begun:1/21/13 W moves out:3/1/2013
Anyone who isn't embarrassed of who they were last year probably isn't learning enough- Alain De Botton
You definitely learned alot on your own through this process, so pat yourself on the back with what you have accomplished. But you are right about needing to shake things up. If you aren't working with a DB coach, I suggest you do and take advantage of of their expertise in guiding you on what the next steps should be. Take good care.
Karen, Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004 karen@divorcebusting.com
Give me a call if you'd like to schedule an appointment to speak with a Divorce Busting® Coach.
Went with W to pick D up at the train station an hour & half south. Pleasant, low key ride down and fun ride back. Something to be said for experiencing new things together, even in the current sitch. D turned 17 today so planning a family dinner for later the holiday weekend. No R talk, no M talk.
Gave W money to get her through to payday after she pays her rent. First time she ever explicitly told me that her pride didn't want to let her ask for help. She can afford her apartment, only if she's VERY careful and nothing unexpected happens. Next'll be tires for her car. I offered to buy her the urgent groceries she needs.
Asked W if she had any plans for the 4th and mentioned a new park nearby that I'm going to check out over the weekend. I didn't pressure her for a response, and she didn't reply. D was out of town with S and had a fun trip. Always good to hear the girls (W&D) catch up, since as the Dad there are always topics I don't know or feel queasy discussing.
We'll see how the weekend goes. She hasn't asked about the lawyer for now.
M:46 W:46 M:25;T:29 S:25; D:17 BD:12/22/12 D process begun:1/21/13 W moves out:3/1/2013
Anyone who isn't embarrassed of who they were last year probably isn't learning enough- Alain De Botton
Spent the 4th at a small town carnival with W. She seemed very relaxed (more on this later). Got ice cream and watched a old-school country band play until the fireworks. Dropped her off at her apartment and got a smooch, which is the first in probably a month or more.
I tend to be an opinionated person. This has to do with my very over-active brain* which NEVER stops processing and videotaping, always capturing stuff and then (formerly) blurting things out in a seemingly random way, an ironic observation here, a snide remark there, maybe a joke. I've really learned to reign this in, especially around W. This got to be very annoying to her and distracting. PLUS I can be very emphatic, and while I don't need to win arguments or be right, when I would express an opinion it made her feel diminished and resentful, since she felt I was demeaning her. Over time it ground her down and impacted her self-worth and self-esteem. She knows I've been working on this since starting therapy, even if I can't change my brain.
Early on when she was still at home and before I discovered DR, it wasn't unusual for her to say "Who ARE you?" if I would express an opinion different than what she expected (a lot of her WAW behavior is a reaction to her own expectations of me. Could this be a type of codependency?), so I got early confirmation of how rewarding a 180 could be before I knew what a 180 was!
Back to last night. The band played mostly cry-in-your-beer Merle Haggard, Johnny Paycheck stuff about WAWs, crushed hopes, etc. Not my kind of music, and I don't think I had heard 99% of what they played before, but during the upbeat songs she would dance a little in place next to me. I was chilled and made no snotty remarks (like I would have before) regarding the band, music etc. I actually complimented the fiddle player and singers who were very good. Not that it means anything related to our M/R, but it was very nice to see her relaxed enough around me to be herself. I have seen this peek through a few times since BD and usually bring it to her attention (good? bad?). I didn't say anything last night. It was clear that she had a good time. I've come to see events like this as something I tell myself is IPI: Incremental Positive Interaction. She's had a positive experience with me.
*I've been scheduled for neuropsychological testing in September to see why my brain races. Can be good when at work, troubleshooting the computer or car, but very bad when I start getting down on myself or thinking about W and what she's up to. Have ruled out ADD & ADHD and mood disorders. I don't want to be medicated, learning to do PMR to calm myself.
M:46 W:46 M:25;T:29 S:25; D:17 BD:12/22/12 D process begun:1/21/13 W moves out:3/1/2013
Anyone who isn't embarrassed of who they were last year probably isn't learning enough- Alain De Botton
A little frustrated with moderation. Would be nice to get responses.
Went for hike with W yesterday. Again, fun and she seemed pretty relaxed. The heat has been brutal here (90s) and W was worried when I went for my afternoon run later. Had birthday dinner for D last night with W and D's boyfriend. Pretty enjoyable. W cleaned up kitchen afterwards and we went shopping together for a few quick things. I took the kayak out in the evening for 20 minutes.
Will go to church together with D this morning, don't have plans for the rest of the day.
Based on the advice several have been given by their DB Coaches, I have a few questions:
Pursuing Behavior: I am scaling back on the texts (no flirty stuff, no "what are you up to?"), not initiating discussions, keeping interaction limited to discussing D, no future talk, but I'm confused since I'm not sure what her perception is of the limited exchanges we've had. Example: In the past she always felt I was manipulative or had ulterior motives if I complimented her (wasn't true, she's had self-image issues and reacted this way), so she is wary if I compliment her. This is getting better and I think she no longer doubts my sincerity most of the time. Could complimenting her be considered pursuing behavior? Is it simply the difference between saying "You look nice" vs. "You look hot/sexy/distracting?"
Solution Detection: W is very stubborn and can be very emotionally distant when she feels her version of past events, or future without me, is threatened. I am very careful of what I discuss or how I respond, partly to protect my own emotional well-being, partly to not make her defensive. So I get very little feedback other than she seems more relaxed around me, nothing verbal, maybe limited touching (none yesterday). Although she hasn't asked about the lawyer or found a way to bring it up in more than a week, all I have to go on is her wanting to keep going with the divorce. Not sure what would be positive about this or what I should look for.
M:46 W:46 M:25;T:29 S:25; D:17 BD:12/22/12 D process begun:1/21/13 W moves out:3/1/2013
Anyone who isn't embarrassed of who they were last year probably isn't learning enough- Alain De Botton
Hey RoofRackDude, I'm sorry you find yourself here and in pain.
Also, as you can see by my # of posts I'm fairly new, but I wanted to make two quick comments.
Originally Posted By: RoofRackDude
W is very stubborn and can be very emotionally distant when she feels her version of past events, or future without me, is threatened. I am very careful of what I discuss or how I respond, partly to protect my own emotional well-being, partly to not make her defensive.
How are these conversations about past or future events coming up? If you are bringing things up its recommended you stop doing that and keep your conversations light and fluffy and focused on anything but your relationship or touchy subjects. If it is her, you can go along with what she says and validate without agreeing. She's probably re-writing history a bit and there isn't all that much you can do to convince her otherwise so its often best to just let it go (she'll remember things more accurately in time if you give her the space to do so).
Originally Posted By: RoofRackDude
Although she hasn't asked about the lawyer or found a way to bring it up in more than a week, all I have to go on is her wanting to keep going with the divorce. Not sure what would be positive about this or what I should look for.
You said earlier in your post that she went on a hike with you, had fun and seemed relaxed. If you are trying to figure out what's working I would pay attention to what leads to those kind of good/positive moments rather than stressing about lawyers, a possible divorce etc.
Good luck and keep posting. Moderation will be over for you soon enough.
BD: Aug 2012 Separated since May 2013 S born Aug 2013 Aug 2013 H agrees to consider 'baby steps toward working things out' H is/was actively seeing someone?
Hey, you're in real time! Sorry you're here but you can find support here.
It's unclear to me what your statement about the pregnancy (got wife pregnant while engaged) was meant to convey. Also, H and I were married 11 years before we had babies...waiting didn't bullet-proof our M. Stressors of any kind tend to magnify the weaknesses we night have, but can also bring out out strengths.
Learning to balance these is key.
What's up with your son? Poor guy. Is it bum luck or is he a thrill-seeker?
What do you take this statement by your W to mean, 'W later told me this was the 1st time she "put herself 2nd"'?
Has your W always held a job outside the home? If the D goes thru will she receive alimony?
Are you helping with her bills out of a loving heart or because you think it will entice her back? If there's a chance you're going to resent giving her the money, don't do it.
About your questions: yes, complimenting is a pursuing behavior. I wouldn't overdo it because then it does seem really insincere and if she equates it with ulterior motives, probably better to hold off.
About what you should look for...her to come to you and say-we've made a terrible mistake, let's work on this.
The positives for you right now are you do things together, keep working on you and the new You will show-up. And she will notice.
Actions speak louder than words.
I'm not a DB coach and have never consulted one, just my .02.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
It seems like you are doing great! I do agree with KarenR.
Originally Posted By: KarenR
You definitely learned alot on your own through this process, so pat yourself on the back with what you have accomplished.
I am not a vet but still I do have a few point I will surrender to your mind!
Originally Posted By: RRD
A little frustrated with moderation. Would be nice to get responses.
We have ALL been through this. Keep posting and you will get off! Responses will come and hopefully a VET will look by your thread soon
Originally Posted By: RRD
What would hope look like in this situation?
Only time and your efforts will give the answer to this one! But there is ALWAYS hope! ALWAYS! But if you read others in here she isn’t that bad/mad at you!
Originally Posted By: RRD
Struggling with hopelessness and loneliness.
GAL is the solution to the loneliness and patience to the other. If you want to do this then patience is a keyword. It is rare that R is achieved in less than a year! All your GAL is lonely stuff – find something that will make you meet new people and start doing things with friends!
Originally Posted By: RRD
Gave W money to get her through to payday after she pays her rent. I offered to buy her the urgent groceries she needs.
Why, to make brownie points? Be nice but do not make this easy to her! Treat her like a friendly neighbor!
Originally Posted By: RRD
First time she ever explicitly told me that her pride didn't want to let her ask for help.
How did you respond to this?
Originally Posted By: RRD
W denies affair, says they are just “fantasies.
Do you believe her! What is your gut-feeling?
Originally Posted By: RRD
It is hard to go dark
Why go dark right now? You are paying her money and writing about going dark at the same time! Educate yourself and then choose a path to follow!
Originally Posted By: RRD
No R talk, no M talk.
Good, stick with this!
Originally Posted By: RRD
In the past she always felt I was manipulative or had ulterior motives if I complimented her (wasn't true, she's had self-image issues and reacted this way)
WRONG!! This was her feeling and you blame her for it! Feelings isn’t about true or false – they are always true! I am the master of mistakes in this area so please do believe me! Your Ws feelings are true to her! Deal with them and do not try to explain them!
Originally Posted By: RRD
This is getting better and I think she no longer doubts my sincerity most of the time
GOOD! Now tell me why they are getting better! Because she is not so much around or because YOU have changed? Do think about it!
Originally Posted By: RRD
Could complimenting her be considered pursuing behavior?
YES! Be nice to her as to your neighbor!
Originally Posted By: RRD
W is very stubborn and can be very emotionally distant when she feels her version of past events, or future without me, is threatened.
Why would she feel this way?
Read up on: WAW/WAS syndrome. Read all you can in here. Find others with WAS and follow them! Communication and especially VALIDATION – this is important! You are communicating and you need to validate her feelings! Do follow AnotherStander in here – he is the expert on validating! You will find a lot on both online!
Have you read Sandi2s rules? If not, then do it, memorize them and live them!
The biggest question I have for you right now is: WHY DID SHE LEAVE YOU???? Be specific and center your answer on you! You have explained a lot about surroundings but what about you? She isn’t leaving your surroundings – she is leaving you! What did or didn’t you do?
Originally Posted By: RRD
Chilling out and not reacting. Taking (mostly) confident control of the household tasks.
This is the only specific 180s you mention! You need to 180 on the reasons for her leaving! As many as possible!
You need to work through your situation again. Be truthful to yourself and do focus on your own part in the D. What went wrong! Look at you and nothing else? What would you change 2 years ago if given the chance! This is about YOU, YOU and YOU and not W or surroundings!
All the best!
F
Me:44 W:43 D7, D5 (S11 from other R)
T: 8y - not M ILYB: 8. Mar 2013 W moved: 1. Aug 2013 LRT: 20. Aug 2013 _______________________________ Do or do not – there’s no try.
Thanks for the reply. Quick answers to your questions:
Quote:
It's unclear to me what your statement about the pregnancy (got wife pregnant while engaged) was meant to convey.
Only that it added stress to our relationship from the very beginning
Quote:
What's up with your son? Poor guy. Is it bum luck or is he a thrill-seeker?
He's a thrill seeker. Finally supporting himself as a professional photographer in New England.
Quote:
What do you take this statement by your W to mean, 'W later told me this was the 1st time she "put herself 2nd"'?
That she was focused on caring for our S, and not thinking of herself or the rest of the family. A little confusing, since it's muddied up with her general feeling that she couldn't express herself within the R. Hard to sort out. See my 7/5/2013 post that explains some of the dynamic between us.
Quote:
Has your W always held a job outside the home? If the D goes thru will she receive alimony?
Hasn't expressed any interest in any alimony and can support herself on paper. Will get half my pension in the divorce up to the date of the separation.
Quote:
Are you helping with her bills out of a loving heart or because you think it will entice her back? If there's a chance you're going to resent giving her the money, don't do it.
I've thought about this a lot and I've trained myself to have no expectations. In a lot of ways it has taught me to be unconditional. I'm not a doormat. She's paid me back every time.
M:46 W:46 M:25;T:29 S:25; D:17 BD:12/22/12 D process begun:1/21/13 W moves out:3/1/2013
Anyone who isn't embarrassed of who they were last year probably isn't learning enough- Alain De Botton