Me 8 months on, dark and trying to detach.

[hotwheelsaust]

my boys are scared to do things with me as I constantly criticised them for doing it wrong. When? How? Why? I don't know or remember anything that resembled that, but this came from the boys speaking to the friend rather than the wife.

This reminded me of something that happened with my father.
He took me out for one driving lesson when I was 17. After 45 minutes any confidence I had in my driving was pretty much gone.
I said something like I'm nowhere near ready for my test if I'm this bad!
He said I was really good.
I said all I've heard is bad things.

He was only telling me when I didn't something wrong. No praise when I did it right.

After that the driving lesson went really well because he was communicating with me the way I needed him to.

Sometimes it can be what your not saying.

If I never said anything to him and then later my mother asked me how it went I could have easily said he just criticised me.

Obviously this could be nothing like what you are experiencing with your sons but it shows the situation is not always as we see it.

You could look at the same experience many times and not see the problem if your not equipped to see it.
Rather than looking back trying to get blood from a stone just concentrate on future interactions. Look for your criticising or anything that coud be seen as such. Notice it, adjust what isn't working and move forward.

T1000, thank you for joining in with great feedback. I think you hit the nail on the head with your driving example. Firstly I believe the way my sons feel are based on growing up, rather than lately. I feel that some of the things I have learn here and read, have made me see things in a lot different light. Secondly, your example was so great, as I have had to teach both boys to drive. Down here they were required to do 100 hours of learning. I spent a lot of hours therefore taking them around the place. I have never heard anything negative about my teaching them to drive, either from the wife or from the friend. If anything, I feel that how I acted teaching them, is what I should have been doing the rest of my life. When teaching I did focus on their positives a lot. If they made mistakes, it wasn't stated as a negative, but feedback was given to how they could have changed the situation to being better. Really I am quite proud of teaching my boys to drive. Both have their licences, on the first attempt, both have cars and both (touch wood) have never been involved in an accident or been booked.
"You could look at the same experience many times and not see the problem if your not equipped to see it.
Rather than looking back trying to get blood from a stone just concentrate on future interactions. Look for your criticising or anything that could be seen as such. Notice it, adjust what isn't working and move forward."
T1000, I think this is all I can do, what has happened has happened, whether I remember it, whether I can justify what I did or whether it is wrong. I simply need to listen to people, hear what they are saying and try my best to change for the better.

[Fartiltre]

Just read your answer to SLU!

I have been a negative person for many years, always looking at the glass half empty rather than half full. And as T1000's example states, I probably spent more time finding or saying things when something was wrong, rather than when things were right.

That's a very good place to start!
Who do you like to be around! Optimistic people or pessimistic people?
How can you 180 here? That’s a hard one since this is life and habits.

He is very good natured guy and one of those people you are lucky to have friendship with. But in saying that, he would take the friendship with the family (especially the SIL, who is like a daughter to him) over our friendship.

Consider this if you ask him but IMHO you can still choose to ask him as long as you keep the talk around you and your wish to understand and develop!
I have to say that I am not on solid ground here so this and in fact all I have posted is my personal opinions! My first thought was that you should talk to him but 10 seconds later – why not? What or who could it hurt? If SIL finds out – so what? The talk is about you and not W!

F

[hotwheelsaust]

I posted this some days ago in your thread – it still counts!

Please do take the above as caring! If it seems harsh I will not apologize for it, but if it seems to be not well meant I sincerely do apologize!
HWA, you have been doing great but you have turned to focusing all your energy and thought towards W and worries.

This is pretty well what my friend says and feels. He is prepared to tell me everything straight, whether it hurts or not. Thanks Fartiltre.

First: It seems to me like you have shifted focus in your last post. You have shifted from W but unfortunately you haven’t shifted to YOU – you have shifted to other people around you. Other people you can’t control.
Keep in mind that this is about YOU, YOU and only YOU!

Fartiltre, it seems that throughout life I have copped constant flak and criticism from people in all walks of life.

I have been feeling like the black sheep of the family for almost 30 years.

What you are facing could be similar and I believe it is!

My god, how similar we are. The W and I always called ourselves the black cows of the family. No matter what we did, it was never right, it should have been talked about with the parents first, the sister/brother/aunt/uncle never did that, so why did we. I always told the W for many years, that if we ever divorced the parents would always say "we knew it was going to happen". That has come back to bite me well and truly. I never felt we did anything right in the families eyes, neither did my W feel she was ever doing anything right. The sister always did everything right, not us.

You can’t rest on these matters – they will haunt you: Either address them or let them go!
I have to let them go, as I cannot address them anymore than what has been done.

If my friend told me something about my behavior I'd dig as much deeper as I can.

I agree on this one – I would too!

If I never said anything to him and then later my mother asked me how it went I could have easily said he just criticized me.

This is an excellent example!!


You should look into these matters! Understand, I have replied to this in SLU and T1000's posts.

I recall you telling about your brother whom you are close to and confidential with. Have you tried consulting him?
My brother has been a rock, but he lives in another state and apart from my visit last Christmas, we have seen each other for many years. He did mention when he saw me last with the family, he felt the family was not talking or showing behaviour that Dad is talking and we have to be quiet. Man I hate knowing that is how I came across.

The friend mentioned that the wife was really happy when I took off to be with my brother at the time of BD for three days, that I was a different person when I got back. Someone she liked, but then she said it lasted 24 hours only.

If this is a close friend perhaps you could get some explanation. He just stated this is what he heard the W say to the family. No more info was given.

Again, I sit here thinking I put in a big effort for weeks to be a better person, never saying anything wrong, helping out, talking. So what and why is it mentioned that I went back to being the same person. This is why it affects me so much.

That’s her experience! Trust it and look into it!
I don't know how I can look into it. I cannot see where I changed after 24 hours, I was working so hard to be the better husband.

You can make a little shortcut that possible will make you feel good!
MEET NEW PEOPLE!!!! 25 have written this many times – now you know why! Make new friends that only know the new you!
As I recall you have mentioned people paying you compliments more than once in your thread! Focus on this instead! Meet people that’s doesn’t know the old you!

I am trying, but it is very hard in this country town, with very little outside things to do. I went to Crossfit, and would love to do it, but cannot simply afford it's cost. Nearly all the staff at the school are female, so finding a good buddy is not easy. I am trying to be as positive as possible with people I meet. I take up the chance to go out when offered. Just all very limited. I will continue to try, but I do know going back to the city and the end of the year will make a big difference to all of this. I feel good about that.

Not feeling OK will hit your attitude, your self-esteem, your PMA and a lot of other very important factor in regards of how attractive you look! You are so right here, this is what I really need to work at better.
Consider addressing this with your coach on Tuesday! Will do.

Work on you! Again will do.


So question is: What will you do?

Example:

better relationship with the boys

How will you act to accomplish this?

I need to stop and have stopped, commenting to them about how I feel with the separation. I need to stop and have stopped, asking them questions like: will you move back home? do you think I am doing the right thing? what did I do wrong?
All this questioning was mentioned and discussed a while ago, and while I changed a lot of it (stopped asking about the W) I didn't realise this new type of questioning was just as bad.
So I sent a text to both my boys, apologising from the bottom of my heart for the horrible situation I put them both in. I told them I acted in a very inappropriate way that a father should have.
So my relationship with the boys will be improved by these accomplishments or changes:
* Positive interactions and feedback (have been doing this for a while now)
* No negative interactions over anything, especially the changes to the family/wife/future.
* No questioning or asking about the W.
* Simply trying to show them a happy more fun loving Dad.
* Most importantly I have to give them no decision making about what to do, rather offer an idea. By this I mean, I texted my youngest son to do something in the last day of the holidays. I offered some choices like movies, check out some new cars, look at stereos and/or wheels for the car. I got no reply, so offered a movie for the day. I found out later via the friend that my son was really upset about not going looking at cars and accessories. How was I to know? He didn't reply, didn't say anything. Again I am the one who did wrong. So the suggestion was not to give the boys an option, but to simply state, I would like to go looking at cars, would you like to join me?

You have done well in DBing but as I see it and read it you should start over not looking at wife, M or BD but looking into HWA, friends, sons and so on! Again so correct.

But first get settled in regards of the houses, jetski, settling, finance and all of that! Yes.

Maybe it is me who should stand up for myself better. Maybe I shouldn't worry about what is told to me so much.

Make yourself better and content then this won’t be necessary! Standing up will be natural and you won’t worry simply because your self-esteem is in place!
It is so hard to get that self-esteem back when you have been kicked all around the place and back again, and then it continues again. But it does need to be done.

what I really want, and I suppose most of us do, is to simply have that closeness to someone you care so much about. To touch them, to sit with them, to have someone to cuddle up to.

Oh, yes!!! And I am lucky to have kids to ease my pain so again: I understand!!

You are lucky Fartiltre, because it does feel that everyone I cared about and for, has gone or doesn't want to put effort into the relationship. I have to start with my boys, to get them to a better place with our relationship.


You seem to be a great guy and I would love to have a cold one with you one day Sounds good, I don't know if we would stop at one though.

Keep pushing forward! Keep working on YOU!

Best of thoughts!

F

Thanks again Fartiltre for all your good ideas and 2 x 4's when needed. It is much appreciated, just like all others who put their thoughts into this situation.

[hotwheelsaust]

Just read your answer to SLU!

I have been a negative person for many years, always looking at the glass half empty rather than half full. And as T1000's example states, I probably spent more time finding or saying things when something was wrong, rather than when things were right.

That's a very good place to start!
Who do you like to be around! Optimistic people

How can you 180 here? That’s a hard one since this is life and habits. Stop talking negative, listen to people better, validate and start looking at small positives. One tiny step at a time.

He is very good natured guy and one of those people you are lucky to have friendship with. But in saying that, he would take the friendship with the family (especially the SIL, who is like a daughter to him) over our friendship.

Consider this if you ask him but IMHO you can still choose to ask him as long as you keep the talk around you and your wish to understand and develop!
I have to say that I am not on solid ground here so this and in fact all I have posted is my personal opinions! My first thought was that you should talk to him but 10 seconds later – why not? What or who could it hurt? If SIL finds out – so what? The talk is about you and not W!

F

No he won't talk any further. He doesn't want the trust broken with whoever it was. The SIL was just my opinion, as it could be anyone, including the W. Again, while we are good friends, he would take the others over me if he needed to. While the talk is about me, the think he saw or was told about confirming an affair (physical) is then about the W. The trust issue could be (in my idea) that the SIL looked at the W's phone and saw texts and/or pictures. Therefore the trust would be, that if I mentioned to the W I know about the affair as there is pictures etc, then the W would know the SIL looked at her phone. So the trust is not just with the friend, but the future for family members with the W.

[GALbaby]

HWA. Most WAS's deny their A's. You're W's situation is not just about a PA, but a PA with another woman. This is something that she is no doubt coming to terms with herself. It can't be easy for her to admit either to herself or anybody else.

The only thing might be, and as I said before, you're DB coach may have some experience with this, is that if she has realised her sexual preference is toward a female, then I am not sure you will make progress in this matter with her. I believe it would be an extremely confusing time for her.

No doubt its also very hurtful for you and you are coming to terms with your feelings about this new discovery, if it is true. To me, it does explain a lot about her behaviour. She must be trying to work through an enormous amount of soul searching. Have some compassion for her. If she "comes out of the closet", she will no doubt face a lot of condemnation. Its a fact of life unfortunately, not all of us are cool with it.

Take care of you.

[GALbaby]

P.S. I have raised three kids, S26, D20, S19. They have had a great life, but if I asked them..they would most likely only remember all the negative things about our R. My D recently said all she can remember about her childhood is how grumpy I was all the time.

Whaat!! but typical. Don't take it too hard. I think its pretty normal. Most of our young people believe they have had it tough. They only realise their parents ain't so bad when they have kids of their own. I was the same.

[hotwheelsaust]

Thank you GALbaby. I do feel the W is in a very difficult time, with the possibility of coming to terms with what is happening to her. I do have compassion for her, always have, and I have accepted this (possible PA) about her for quite a while now. It is very difficult for her to not show the basic signs of an affair (constant texting etc) when she is with the family.
In my honest opinion, I think she found and EA and either through my behaviours or something better it became a PA. I do feel that she will be condemned once or if the kids at school find out. I also think most teachers know about it at school also. Again it is the history of this other woman that makes people accept what is going on, rather than trying to ignore it as a ridiculous statement.
Me though, will not be discussing what I think is going on with teachers from her school, nor setting out to inform anyone about it.
I have to accept the W will not be coming back next year, therefore she will be stuck in the country for another year by herself (without me up here) and the friend.
With regards to the sons, you are right. I probably look at my Mum as only negative things that happened while growing up. Again all I can now do, is learn by my mistakes (plenty there) and be a better person and father.
I do feel there is very little hope for the M now, who knows many years down the track. Therefore I will be speaking with the DB coach on ways to move on a lot better. I honestly don't think anything I do anymore will make an ounce of difference to her.

[Fartiltre]

Hi HWA

I like your posting much better now you seem to be determined to do something about this – now, do it!
This is about you, working on you and you can do it!

There is only one person defining whether you are the black sheep or cow – and that's you!

The sister always did everything right, not us.

Same with my brother! I didn’t get it for 20 years. I do today and I don’t envy him anymore!

Man I hate knowing that is how I came across.

Then change it for the future! It good that you realize this!

I will continue to try, but I do know going back to the city and the end of the year will make a big difference to all of this. I feel good about that.

Work with what you’ve got – sounds good!

I need to stop and have stopped, commenting to them about how I feel with the separation. I need to stop and have stopped, asking them questions like: will you move back home? do you think I am doing the right thing? what did I do wrong?

Yes! You are the father and will always be! You are the one with the answers – not the questions! They should be the ones asking you these questions! You will have to turn this around! Your sons are still children! They need you to be the rock! The need a father!
Read up on this and 180!

I found out later via the friend that my son was really upset about not going looking at cars and accessories. How was I to know? He didn't reply, didn't say anything

Could have been me that age! Properly could have been a lot of sons!
They won’t tell you but if you follow their lives you will get this in time! You will be able to feel it and with growing relationship at some point they will start telling you!
It will demand patience and time but you know all about this!

It is so hard to get that self-esteem back when you have been kicked all around the place and back again, and then it continues again. But it does need to be done.

Precisely! Do it!

You are lucky Fartiltre, because it does feel that everyone I cared about and for, has gone or doesn't want to put effort into the relationship. I have to start with my boys, to get them to a better place with our relationship.

Funny, I don’t feel lucky at the moment! I am though – I can see!
You feel alone right now! This is a feeling and something you can change! People will put in effort in relationship they want’s. Right now your W doesn’t want you but your sons do or they will! Even in a period of several years where I didn’t talk to my father he was constantly on my mind! He didn’t reach out and neither did I! As I see it today the responsibility to do this was his! He was the father! He should have been the rock! He should have loved me without conditions. He should have supported me! He didn’t and our relationship was so bad!
If you have issues with your sons then do forgive them as in real forgiveness. Let it go and do not bring it to the table again. These are your babies! Care for them with love and understanding, and you will get it back 10 times.
My grandfather was a very distant and cold person for his entire life! That’s until his W died then he opened up. He and I hadn’t talked for so many years and then he started reaching out. It took time but we ended up with a good relationship. It can be done!



HWA; I really like how you sounds now! You focus on you and you can do this!
Still remember that this will take time and demand patience but start moving and at some point you will get there!

Whaat!! but typical. Don't take it too hard. I think it’s pretty normal. Most of our young people believe they have had it tough. They only realize their parents aren’t so bad when they have kids of their own. I was the same.

I agree on this one – I was the same! This is a part of growing up but it will change – if it is not the truth! So see to that when children turn 30 and looks back they do see something good!
Be the father nobody wants to live without!

Again all I can now do, is learn by my mistakes (plenty there) and be a better person and father.

This is so good! Spot on! Bullseye!
DO IT!

I do feel there is very little hope for the M now, who knows many years down the track. Therefore I will be speaking with the DB coach on ways to move on a lot better. I honestly don't think anything I do anymore will make an ounce of difference to her.

I feel the same way in my sit! Seems like she is gone! But there’s still a lot of hope for me as a person and as a father – same goes for you!

I honestly don't think anything I do anymore will make an ounce of difference to her.

Well, properly not today but perhaps tomorrow! The fog will go away at some point and as I see it your Ws fog is a little different so when it lifts things could happen! Focus on you!



Ohh, by the way…you are right! We wouldn’t stop at one! The sheep and the cow drinking fosters in the Australian sunset….some picture…makes me smile! I will keep this picture in my mind!

Enjoy the day!
Cheers

F

[hotwheelsaust]

Thanks again Fartiltre for your continued replies, they make so much sense and help immensely.
The only thing to add, is no issues with the sons at all. Accepting how they are. You are right I need to be the rock for them, not the other way around.
I do like the picture of the sheep and cow drinking while watching the sunset.

Time for a new page again.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2364710&#Post2364710

[lovethehub]

Originally Posted By: GALbaby
Whaat!! but typical. Don't take it too hard. I think it’s pretty normal. Most of our young people believe they have had it tough. They only realize their parents aren’t so bad when they have kids of their own. I was the same.
I agree on this one – I was the same! This is a part of growing up but it will change – if it is not the truth! So see to that when children turn 30 and looks back they do see something good!
Be the father nobody wants to live without!

I agree to a certain extent, most children see their parents as mean, criticizing, etc. However, your children are older and for them to be stating at this age that they are afraid to do something with you because of how you treat them is a lot different than a young child saying it. I think you need to have a heart to heart conversation with these boys and tell them that you have heard this, you are very sorry for making them feel that way and you are working every day to become a better person and a better father. Be honest with them and ask them to be honest with you. I am working on my patience and not making sarcastic comments to my children (I used to think I was being funny, I realize now it is often hurtful) and I have told them to call me out on it if I fall back into old habits.

If you are a glass half empty type of person, set aside time each day to think or write about what you have to be grateful for. Over your morning coffee, an evening beer, whatever. Do it every day and you will be amazed at the difference in your life. Writing it seems to be more helpful. By the book The Magic (Rhonda Byrne), it teaches you how to practice gratitude in your life.

I understand fully when I see what I have done wrong and take ownership of it. What is a struggle is it seems so many things I have down wrong, cannot be explained or remembered. It would be okay if I was a drug or drinker but I am not. So I feel scared, confused and a lot of other emotions, when I cannot change something that I don't know is happening.

Is this true or an excuse for not digging deeper? Try to work on being more aware in all of your interactions. If you realize you have behaved in a way that is not compatible with the person you are working on becoming, apologize immediately.