Stuck between a rock and a hard place!

[MrBond]

"I just can't seem to wrap my head around how w feels the need to d when all Ive been saying since BD is I'll do whatever it takes to work things out!"

And that's been your problem since Day 1. You don't understand that she was living with your issues for awhile and you kept ignoring her until she decided to leave. She even wrote you a VERY long and detailed letter about it, but you seem to ignore her points in it. Just because you suddenly decide to change, doesn't mean that she wants you back after hurting her for so long.

"Why does she think things wouldn't change if we worked through them?"

Because you didn't change in the past and you didn't even listen to her.

"Why would she think I wouldn't want to change? It seems obvious to me that while she was unhappy, so was I!"

Because you didn't change in the past and you didn't even listen to her. Go back and read that message. When you were unhappy you took alot of it out on her and ignored her and both of you caused a deadly cycle that ultimately lead to this.

"All the blame is on me, why wouldn't she understand that she also played a part in how I felt and reacted ?"

Because you're not doing the same for her now. You say you do but you haven't changed. In fact, one of her biggest complaints was that you tended to do what you wanted to whenever you wanted to. AND you still show you're like that by moving in without telling her.

"Why would she choose d rather then trying to give us a second chance based on all the work Ive been doing?"

She didn't choose D initially. She gave you chance after chance, but you didn't want to listen and continued to do what you wanted to. Time to be honest with yourself here.

[MrBond]

Did you even START laying out your plan about when you move back? If you haven't, then it proves that you really don't care about how she feels and only about what YOU feel.

[dorightman]

Bond, today we go to her therapist.

Yesterday morning she told me her story again. She was blaming me for everything, all her anger for all the ways I failed her as a husband. She called me names, lazy, entitled. She said I never worked hard like she did, I never went to grad school, she did (I paid for!)

She spoke in absolutes, like there was never a good day in all 10 years of our marriage. It was hurtful to listen to. I listened and didn't freak out in the moment, but I feel it all now. It really hurts!

She said she thinks I'm acting "good" now because I want her back and she doesn't trust that I've changed.

She wants me to pay for camp for our kids and I've been avoiding paying it because, one, I don't have the money, two, she enrolled them without consulting me and three, she wants a D, but expects me to still pay for everything. I'm conflicted whether to pay for it or not? I don't want the kids to be disappointed, but I also don't feel it was right of her to assume I should have to pay all of it when she wants a D.

Since the start of all this stuff, I've continued to pay all the bills, so she just expects me to continue. She hasn't really felt the reality of the sitch in financial terms.

She didn't choose D initially. She gave you chance after chance, but you didn't want to listen and continued to do what you wanted to. Time to be honest with yourself here.

Are you talking about since BD, or in all of the marriage?

My plan about when I'm moving back?

1st of all, I'm already back in the house. I do care about how she feels, but I can't afford to live outside the house anymore.

My plan is to keep being as supportive as possible, to keep being the best dad possible, and to show her that when we do talk, I'm able to listen without raising my voice and reacting emotionally. I'am getting better at it.

I will take your advice and tell her a code word to use if she feels uncomfortable in a discussion. I really don't know what else to do. I'm not good at plans!

I know you think I'm being selfish, more of the same behavior, by moving back. I feel like I don't have a choice right now. I feel torn up by all of this. I want so much to R and w wants D so much. It's so painful.

The 3 months living in an apt did help us to calm down, but it didn't help in terms of w changing her direction. She's totally stuck and I guess I'am too.

It's so crazy that the only way I can prove to her that I "hear her" and that I "listen to her" is to give her the D. Seems like she won't accept less.

[MrBond]

"She said she thinks I'm acting "good" now because I want her back and she doesn't trust that I've changed."

This sums it up.

She wants me to pay for camp for our kids and I've been avoiding paying it because, one, I don't have the money, two, she enrolled them without consulting me"

Then talk to her about it. Tell her there's no money. don't hide it.

"I also don't feel it was right of her to assume I should have to pay all of it when she wants a D."

That's correct. Although she doesn't have a job, correct?

"Since the start of all this stuff, I've continued to pay all the bills, so she just expects me to continue. She hasn't really felt the reality of the sitch in financial terms."

You're still trying to punish her.

"She didn't choose D initially. She gave you chance after chance, but you didn't want to listen and continued to do what you wanted to. Time to be honest with yourself here.

Are you talking about since BD, or in all of the marriage?"

In all of your M. She detailed it very well in the letter which you seem to not want to go back to.

"1st of all, I'm already back in the house. I do care about how she feels, but I can't afford to live outside the house anymore."

That's not a plan.

"My plan is to keep being as supportive as possible, to keep being the best dad possible, and to show her that when we do talk, I'm able to listen without raising my voice and reacting emotionally. I'am getting better at it."

That's not a plan. That's you doing what you want to do AGAIN.

"I will take your advice and tell her a code word to use if she feels uncomfortable in a discussion. I really don't know what else to do. I'm not good at plans!"

That's obvious. So what is the plan if she says the code word? When she says it you have to be able to go away somewhere for the night. No arguments.

"I know you think I'm being selfish, more of the same behavior, by moving back. I feel like I don't have a choice right now. I feel torn up by all of this. I want so much to R and w wants D so much. It's so painful."

You're still are being selfish and are taking on the victim mode. I don't think you get it that you haven't addressed any of her concerns that she had about you. You haven't changed at all.

"The 3 months living in an apt did help us to calm down, but it didn't help in terms of w changing her direction."

It's not supposed to get her to change direction. That's YOUR thinking. It was to get things on a calm environment because YOU were an emotional wreck.

"She's totally stuck and I guess I'am too."

She's "stuck" because you refuse to change.

"It's so crazy that the only way I can prove to her that I "hear her" and that I "listen to her" is to give her the D. Seems like she won't accept less."

No you've got it backwards. It seems like YOU won't accept less than staying with her which she clearly doesn't want. You haven't let her go and give her REAL space. You were always there hovering. You did read DR or DB right? You haven't detached or listened to her needs (listening means to act on them also) and you really don't "get" where she's coming from. You think her POV doesn't matter. She doesn't want you.

Sorry but that's the brutal reality. What are you going to do about it?

[dorightman]

I was bombarded by her aggressive therapist. He only wanted to talk about the D. He wanted to know why I wasn't giving W a D? He told me that she wanted to D me no matter how much work I've done on myself. He told me W wanted to divorce me even if I was the best man in the world! He said that love is conditional! He said that w wanted intimacy, just not with me.

I sat through this, argued with him when I disagreed and my w sat there and cried.

Before this I saw my therapist and he told me that many couples survive hardships including adultery and see it as a great teaching to take them both to a great place. Another obstacle in the face of life to help us grow.
He talked about Intimacy and how he thought all marital problems where about intimacy. He said all the details, the content where irrelevant.

The differences between my therapist and hers is incredible! Mine is dwelling on love and spirituality, hers is cold hard facts, no spirituality at all.

Anyways, at this point I'am feeling like dropping the rope for real, giving her what she wants, a D.

If she ever has a change of heart, I will tell her my door and my heart remain open if she is willing to pick it up together.

[MrBond]

I've never heard of a T that would do something like that. I thought you were going to see your usual MC? Was this the first time you met the douche?

What happened after that?

[dorightman]

It was the 1st time I met him. W has been seeing him now for awhile. Also, this T is W's mother's T.
W decided never to see my T again after he suggested we give our M a second chance.
After that session, I felt like dropping the rope. Not the 1st time I've felt that. I'm definitely becoming more detached after experiences like this!
The next day W took kids on vacation and I've been alone for the past week. I only respond when W texts me. I'm friendly, but detached. It's definitely easier with her gone, not having to see her. She's back the end of the week.
I'm thinking about giving her the D, but I'm still hesitant. I still want to work things out. I feel like there won't be any forward motion unless I break the chain and give her what she wants. If she wants to come back in the future, the door might still be open, who knows. All I know is that I feel like I've been banging my head against the wall now for over a year!
I'm not sure what my next move should be, or if I should even make a move. I'm very busy right now starting a new business and I probably won't see much of W anyways, so she will have her time and space.

[dorightman]

We had a little talk last night. W is determined to D. She does not want to work on the relationship and she wants to go to mediation asap. If I won't go, she will move out of the house because she doesn't want to live with me and pretend anymore. No matter what I say, her answer is she doesn't want to work on the relationship anymore. She is done, and she's been done for a long time now.
I don't know what to do other then give her what she wants. I don't think I really have a choice. If I don't give her the D, in a year from now, the court will.
Any last minute advice? I feel like I'm stuck and don't really have anymore options.

[MrBond]

Did you go into C with a plan like I recommended? No excuses. Did you or didn't you and what was it?

"We had a little talk last night."

Who brought it up?

"Any last minute advice? I feel like I'm stuck and don't really have anymore options."

I feel like you haven't followed any of the advice given so far.

[dorightman]

Yes I had a plan, a plan to go in w an open mind. The issue of me moving back never came up. Not in therapy, and not at home. W was angry the day I came back, and then she was ok. She just said that since Im back, she expects me to step up as a dad, which I did regardless.
We both started talking, not sure who started first. It was a pretty calm talk, but it still hurt a lot.
It just feels the same no matter what I do or did for the past year.
Yes I made alot of mistakes in the beginning, but for the past 6 months I've acted much better, less emotional. She's not scared to talk anymore, but feels like it's a dead end because we both want different things. She wants D, I want to reconcile. This has been the problem from the start last August. You cannot work on a relationship with someone who refuses to. I really feel like there's nothing else I can do.