Is it too soon to give up hope?

[2ndtimearoundCA]

So I met with my ex (still wife but physically separated) for drinks las night. We had fun. When she dropped the bomb in February she was angry and we didn't really talk. I was temporarily out of work when she left and our intimacy had been less than great for some time. But I didn't think that she was close to leaving me. She was a walk away wife. I had left for a weekend with friends and when I came back she wanted out. So last night she gave me information about her situation. She claims to be broken and is ok with being broken. She is leading a very wild lifestyle right now and is enjoying herself on the surface. She is drinking a lot and showing other destructive behavior that she didn't show while we were together. I guess this is a midlife crisis for her.

She says that she loves me and will always love me but is not in love with me. But she is definitely seeking me out as a friend. While the "loves but is not in love" statement is clear, some of her other actions make it seem like she is sending mixed messages. Part of me feels like she is reaching out for help but when I start to offer she pushes me away. She claims to be broken and is ok with being broken.

I have already done periods of no contact and given her lots of space. I have worked on myself and I detached for a while. As our communication has picked up I feel myself getting more and more attached to her again. Not sure what to do next. I don't know if the friendship could grow into love again.

[~ kd ~]

Remember that what ever you do, what ever DBing you do, you do FOR YOU.

That said, if your W is MLC (and it sounds like she could be), then the NC is unlikely to have any positive affect on her (ie. that she'll "miss you" in a significant way). So that said, be sure that the NC is FOR YOU, to help you detach. Otherwise, it might be a better idea to just be as detached as possible, yet still "present".

Get back to working on your detachment and also your GAL. Those two things can help bring up your PMA. Also, take this time to work on any 180s or growth that is valid and for your future, whether the M is saved or not.

[2ndtimearoundCA]

Below will give you an ideal of how communication goes with my wife. I know she has feelings for me.. more than she may be willing to admit. Before monday we had not communicated in over a week. Her texts seem to indicate that she misses me quite a bit. But, for some reason she just can’t seem to cross the line to even dating me again. BTW we are married but living separately. Here are my texts with her for this week

Monday
Me (mid-morning): Saw gin blossoms on beach in Santa Cruz over weekend… reminded me of seeing Eddie Money with your dad. Hope your throat is getting better and you are taking care of you! … Or at least avoiding stemless wine glasses

Her (night time): Yes, lots of wonderful, memories we have!!! Was in the mountains with dad this weekend… Brought back memories of Tahoe trips. Talked about it all weekend. Hiked alone around cabin made me think of all our hiking trips.

Tuesday
Me(mid-morning): Tahoe was always your happy place Kim. Hope your weekend trip had a similar effect on you. The full moon was amazing this past weekend. It must have been magical to see from deep inside the woods away from the city lights. Hope you don’t get too wet today in the rain.

Her (Night time): Had a wonderful weekend. Hope yours was just as wonderful. Goood night, Stephen


Wednesday afternoon
Me: We got a tax refund! Red or Black? Quick!!
Her: I don’t understand. (I thought for sure she would get it right away)
Me: I’m at the roulette wheel.. Red or black or should we do green?
Her: I’m laughing now… How much? Enough to plan Vegas trip to double our $$$
Me: xxxx fed xxxx state. But it’s all gone now. I went with green
Her: you suck!!! Was looking forward to going to Vegas. Do we need to meet for signatures?
Me: Maybe.. Waiting to hear back from Midge. Can still do Vegas.. As I recall I have some southwest credit
Her: Yes, u have southwest credit!!! Let me know
Me: I’ll let you know what Midge says, but Im ready to book Vegas right now. I’m feeling in the mood for an adventure, and you should come along for the ride!
Her: I would love to but really can’t afford the trip
Me (hour later): Get your black dress ready, give me some dates, trip is on me Kimberly

Her: No response yet …

My last response was an hour later, otherwise we were chatting back and forth with minutes between texts. Thoughts???

[~ kd ~]

If your W is MLC, you're describing pretty normal behaviour.

As you note, YOU initiated comm. 12 hour turn around on her responses is pretty decent, considering that she responded at all.

Wednesday's comm? Come on, it's about money, of course she'd respond quickly. Then she gets caught up and drops the comm with a depression statement (can't afford trip).

Read nothing into the comm. You started it and her response is "normal".

Again, keep working on detachment and GAL. Were there any 180s you were working on?

[2ndtimearoundCA]

I mostly need to become more financially stable. I do a lot of contract work and sometimes things dry up. I am over educated and underemployed. Right now I am doing fine but I have no job security. I am trying to start my own business. If that works out then I will be much better off.

From time to time my wife will initiate the communication. For example she sent me a text from Vegas (there for work) about a month ago saying "In Vegas. memories. Feels weird being here alone." She has done more since. Mostly just a thinking of me type of text. She has also initiated wanting to meet up and work out at the gym about 6 time. I Agreed 3 of those times. She wants to keep me around at arms length.

[25yearsmlc]

I mostly need to become more financially stable. I do a lot of contract work and sometimes things dry up. I am over educated and underemployed. Right now I am doing fine but I have no job security. I am trying to start my own business. If that works out then I will be much better off.

Will starting your own business give you MORE security? Seems like the opposite to me. Just asking.

ALSO, do Not underestimate the value of providing financial security. We women want to know that our h's are strong and powerful and that they make us feel safe. That "safety" means security and security includes financial security.

Being a "good provider" matters a lot. That's why it is said so often as a crucial trait.

It's a BIG DEAL and I think it plays into your other issues. Having occasional performance issues, don't downplay the relationship between how you see yourself as a man, and as a provider...

BTW, I have a question. When a man has ED problems, why must it end their sex lives? The wife is still there with her needs. Aside from medications a man can take, it's not as if there are no other ways to satisfy a spouse...I always wonder when I see that comment made, if it means that HER sex life is over too.

ALSO your text inviting her to Vegas went from being a fun hypothetical to an actual invitation, which is clearly pursuit. The non response WAS a response. Live and learn. Do not repeat. LET HER do the next invite and meanwhile become a man only a fool would leave.

I'd work out like a maniac and work full time.

ALSO I am very concerned that you are not mentioning your sons or hers, at all.

Just b/c you are not your stepson's dad, does not mean there is no bond.

Were you a good stepfather? And what about your sons? Are they okay?

This must be very disappointing for them to see you in this situation.

I worry that your failure to even mention their welfare even once, as if it's ALL exclusively about you and w, means they did not feel like a family.

So it's easier to leave. And do not discount the damage your son's will suffer by seeing you divorce again.

It matters. How are they handling all this? Are you hanging out with them more?

Finally, I'm stunned that you are on Match.com so fast.

I mean, I don't get it. You got the bomb less than 4 months ago...barely time to begin DBing... and you have a dating profile already?

SIGH...



From time to time my wife will initiate the communication. For example she sent me a text from Vegas (there for work) about a month ago saying "In Vegas. memories. Feels weird being here alone." She has done more since. Mostly just a thinking of me type of text. She has also initiated wanting to meet up and work out at the gym about 6 time. I Agreed 3 of those times. She wants to keep me around at arms length.

Be less predictable. When you are busy as you should be, make it about your sons, (did the boys get along? If so, do something with all three)

OR your new job

OR your new GAL. Working out is fine, but if she is there, she won't notice your absence. Drop the number of acceptances to her invites down, IF they are simply work outs...if she progresses to a more serious type of event, like a dinner, then go and LISTEN to her.

She will only return to the marriage if she thinks it can be better/different than before.

How would it be better or different than before? Like the first m ended and yet here you are. What would be different if you were to reconcile?

If you go out with her

project a strong man image.

Show her a A CHANGED, more responsible man.

No offense, okay? I feel I have to tell you this so you understand why she may have left...

the image I got of your marriage at the start of your first thread,

was of a hard working achieving w, with an underemployed but educated man, who did Not take care of the household chores and meals but left a lot for HER to do at home, and who has "intimacy issues" all of--which will lead to

a woman who will feel neglected, and then resent it...


What is your GAL? Any NEW hobbies or classes? Join anything like a volunteer organization or networking group or seminar?

meeting new people who don't know your sitch is a good idea. I happen to think dating this fast is too soon.

You have not identified any traits or issues in you that you want to work on. What are they?

What are your 180s?

[25yearsmlc]

ps

yes I think there is hope in your sitch. She seems to be reaching out and has not filed.

Do not fuel the negative images she had of you. Counter them with positives that are the opposite so she can believe you have changed for real...in a lasting way.

She clearly misses the laughing and the friendship. But the "in love" part will come by seeing you as confident and strong and capable.

Didn't she even SAY she wanted to be able to be the one taken care of?

...that's a red flag for someone who is doing too much of the managing and getting too little noursishment and attention.

[2ndtimearoundCA]

I absolutely understand that things would be much better if I could make myself more financially stable. THIS is my primary focus and I work on it from many angles everyday. I am in good physical shape, I have lots of good friends, I have a life. The one thing at could still be improved is my financial stability. So my 180s are all about trying new things to generate income or land a better job.

The business I am starting will be in addition to everything else that I am doing and will be like a hobby for me. It should generate a positive income flow pretty quickly and will help supplement my other work.

I have two teenage kids... a 16 year old daughter and a 14 year old son. Both are from a previous marriage. They live with me 50% of the time. I have tried to talk to them about the absence of their stepmom and they say they don't care and think I should move on. It has been difficult to get them to open up, but I know they are hurting a little. I do my best to be a great dad to my kids. My wife has two sons from her previous marriage. They are 24 and 22. My daughter and 22 year old stepson still communicate through Facebook.

When my wife left she cut all ties with my kids and everyone else in my family. My sister has tried to keep in touch with my wife and has been reaching out quite a bit. My sister and my wife may be having lunch soon. I don't know if that is a good thing

My situation, likes everyone's, is unique. I definitely could have been a better husband. This originally led me to believe that I was in a classic WAW situation. However my wife's actions since leaving leads me to believe that she is in a midlife crisis. Her behavior has completely changed and she is being self destructive. I know that there is a lot of drinking and she mentioned some drugs as well, and I imagine lots of sex. I don't know for sure about the sex, but she talked to me about purchasing items at an adult book store. She was trying to explain to me that she is too wild for me and at I could not handle the "real" her. It was as if she was trying to shock me into not liking her. It was also her way of taking some of the blame for the failed relationship. Basically saying we are two different people.

I really appreciate all the input I get from many sources about my situation. I met a female friend (strictly friends) from another forum like this one. We are in similar situations and give each other a lot of advice. That relationship helps me a lot.

[2ndtimearoundCA]

One more thing. The last two things that I wrote in my Wednesday conversation were against my better judgment. I have two different female friends who both told me to say what I said and basically escalate the conversation. I know it may have been a mistake, but they both still insist that it was the attractive thing to do.
They both know my situation in detail and one has experience as an ex in a similar situation. I read a lot about attraction and relationships and pursuing in a non-needy way can actually be attractive. Still I hope I didn't set myself back too far.

Wednesday afternoon
Me: We got a tax refund! Red or Black? Quick!!
Her: I don’t understand. (I thought for sure she would get it right away)
Me: I’m at the roulette wheel.. Red or black or should we do green?
Her: I’m laughing now… How much? Enough to plan Vegas trip to double our $$$
Me: xxxx fed xxxx state. But it’s all gone now. I went with green
Her: you suck!!! Was looking forward to going to Vegas. Do we need to meet for signatures?
Me: Maybe.. Waiting to hear back from Midge. Can still do Vegas.. As I recall I have some southwest credit
Her: Yes, u have southwest credit!!! Let me know
Me: I’ll let you know what Midge says, but Im ready to book Vegas right now. I’m feeling in the mood for an adventure, and you should come along for the ride!
Her: I would love to but really can’t afford the trip
Me (hour later): Get your black dress ready, give me some dates, trip is on me Kimberly

[25yearsmlc]

I absolutely understand that things would be much better if I could make myself more financially stable. THIS is my primary focus and I work on it from many angles everyday. I am in good physical shape, I have lots of good friends, I have a life. The one thing at could still be improved is my financial stability. So my 180s are all about trying new things to generate income or land a better job.

I understand this^^. But didn't you say intimacy was also a problem that seemed to be growing recently? Some of her comments suggest her fear that her needs will not be met. That's why I mention that even if a man has ED (and I realize you are not there yet AND OR you can get treated for it if you are) there are other ways to please a woman.

I think it's fair for a woman to know her needs will be met or her partner will try to, even if it's not all going to work out for him. Do I need to be more graphic? Hope not...

my point is not to solely focus on one area when more than one have been mentioned. I DO see a relationship between them all however. IT's you being the "Strong One" and the provider, even if she earns more...the concept of her feeling secure and taken care of, applies in more than one way.

The business I am starting will be in addition to everything else that I am doing and will be like a hobby for me. It should generate a positive income flow pretty quickly and will help supplement my other work.

I have two teenage kids... a 16 year old daughter and a 14 year old son. Both are from a previous marriage. They live with me 50% of the time. I have tried to talk to them about the absence of their stepmom and they say they don't care and think I should move on.

That ^^ would great sadden me, and concern me about how they view marital relationships and family life. What were you like after your first divorce?

It has been difficult to get them to open up, but I know they are hurting a little.


My guess is they are hurting more than a little. A lot more.

I do my best to be a great dad to my kids. My wife has two sons from her previous marriage. They are 24 and 22. My daughter and 22 year old stepson still communicate through Facebook.

When my wife left she cut all ties with my kids and everyone else in my family. My sister has tried to keep in touch with my wife and has been reaching out quite a bit. My sister and my wife may be having lunch soon. I don't know if that is a good thing


it's not a bad thing, unless your sister takes it upon herself to fix your marriage or urge your w to come home. The best thing your sister can do is talk in an upbeat way about you, & how "Even though you will always love w, you are now DOING 'x' and 'y' GAL, and staying busy with your work and new job(s), etc..."
Just reinforcing the changes you are making BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO MAKE THEM, not to get her back, but b/c you needed to. So in "some ways this has been good for him to focus on HIS career and other interests..."??


My situation, likes everyone's, is unique. I definitely could have been a better husband. This originally led me to believe that I was in a classic WAW situation. However my wife's actions since leaving leads me to believe that she is in a midlife crisis.

NOOOOOO!!

Please please do NOT go down this road of "MLC vs WAW". It does not matter b/c it does NOT change your course of action. Let me repeat that for emphasis.

Your course of action is the same regardless of what label you want to use.

I used the term in my sitch, somewhat to my regret, but I had no other term for my h wanting/insisting/obsessing about living in Alaska, as we had done it in the 90s and it sukked for all of us BUT him...

I spent way too much time wondering about what My h was going thru or what he was thinking/doing/planning/feeling.

Do NOT repeat my mistake.

ALL That time and energy ought to have been on ME and my kids and my new life.

PLUS, *** when I finally did work on ME and mine, and detached from what my h was doing, operating under the assumption that the m was over and I was done...h woke up.***

Took him a year to get me to reconcile and THEN we did Retrovaille...but like I said, I let him go and stopped working on him (Which was totally useless and wasteful) and I worked on me.

I had some anger issues and other things I had to own and repair. I am a better partner and mother now, than before.

You do have issues as a h. Do NOT gloss over that.

You had a breadwinner wife (itself a problem for many women AND many men) and she did not get a full time "wife" from you in return. You let a lot of things slide and it sounded to me as if you were (or appeared to be) depressed.

She still had to cook or clean some, and she supported you and YOUR kids by earning so much more than you did...that's not a position of strength as a h.

And you had some intimacy issues. You did not get that treated so in effect, perhaps it appeared to her that she was either not attractive enough to you OR

you simply did not value her needs being met, enough to get your problem. treated.

IMO, She did not see you as the leader of the family. She did not see you as an equal in the marriage. She eventually came to see you only as a friend.

SHE may have issues of her own coming up. I agree. But you are not off the hook.And it's not your job to fix her.

By labeling her behavior as MLC, you may be deflecting from work you very much need to do, on YOURSELF.

And you are all you control. Focussing energy on HER, is energy you ought to be spending on you and your children...

You cannot change her. You cannot fix her. But you have your own repair work to do. The fact that you poo poo your shortcomings, concerns me a lot.

I cannot over stress the importance of attraction. Women do not feel attracted to men they don't respect. They MIGHT sleep with them, but they won't marry them.

You need to regain her respect financially, sexually, spiritually and emotionally. Maybe Sandi can say this another way. She was a WAW.


Her behavior has completely changed and she is being self destructive. I know that there is a lot of drinking and she mentioned some drugs as well, and I imagine lots of sex. I don't know for sure about the sex, but she talked to me about purchasing items at an adult book store. She was trying to explain to me that she is too wild for me and at I could not handle the "real" her. It was as if she was trying to shock me into not liking her. It was also her way of taking some of the blame for the failed relationship. Basically saying we are two different people.


Stop the mind reading. IT gets you nowhere and your spin on it, is NOT mine at all. So don't bother with it.

Ever hear the oft repeated phrase here, "Believe NONE of what they say and only half of what they do"??? Remember it now.

I really appreciate all the input I get from many sources about my situation.


No problem. But please pick ONE approach and stick with it til you have given it a fair chance. Too many people, usually men for some reason, think a shotgun "do it ALL" approach is better.

But it's not. It's confusing and you want your w to see consistent changes in you. Plus some approaches actually conflict with each other.

Consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Your w will not likely return to the marriage you had.
So

you need to get her to see that marriage to you now, & from this day forward,

would be better/different than before.

What are you DOING to show that? (Not in words...actions...)??


I met a female friend (strictly friends) from another forum like this one. We are in similar situations and give each other a lot of advice. That relationship helps me a lot.