Questions without answers...will the hurt stop?

[25yearsmlc]

Had to post on this one line but promise to address real issues later...

[quote=nero]hey hi-

is this a new thread for you? arresting title -

arresting little paragraph- sad but true. i've often scoffed at that tired old "whatever doesn't kill ya..."

Um, yeah well, leprosy doesn't kill you. But if your arms fall off, you're not exactly stronger...it's a stupid saying.

I'd go with "Steel is forged in heat so it can withstand battles" a bit more. But what we are really saying is, we can choose to become stronger and discover a lot about ourselves during these ordeals.

And we hope we find ourselves better on the other side.

LBSers who dig deep and really work on themselves, always find their way to a better happier life. Those who don't, stay stuck.

Of course It takes different amounts of time for each of us and our circumstances vary. But if we work on becoming our best selves, sure, we give our m's the best chance for recon-

but more importantly, WAY more importantly, we love ourselves and we are happier, regardless of what our WASs do...

and all our other R's improve as we do.

[albamarie]

The funny thing is sometime's I'm not upset, I just want out of here! When I'm upset I'm more likely to want him, talk to him, get attention any way I can. When I'm cool like this I want to move on and leave everything about him behind!

It was the friend who asked if I love him! I am still DBing and making efforts, but can I say it's out of love, and the hope he will come back to me? It's easier to say its out of some responsibility to do everything I could do before it's over. When I say over, I'm saying because I believe he will not return, so it's a resposibility to the M I thought I had.

He has become the person I'm stuck w I'm not letting love factor in. Did I love him before MLC...w all my heart!

I can't get past putting someone else between us, I think I'm so infuriated at that one act, that I am willing to WAW from him totally. Sometimes I wish he slept around for a few months and never created an emotional tie, that bond is soo dependent, and deep that I believe it's deeper than w ever experienced being M. I actually think he likes EA more than he ever liked me, if only she wasn't an alcoholic, bi polar, scitsilfranact, he takes the time to see the person behind all that, and he says there's a good person there.

Being M was about working, kids, house, all that stuff that kept us moving. He was always a workaholic and didn't take the time to grow w me or be w the kids. Now he's giving her his ear and understanding during his night job when the world is quiet and there is time to listen.

I hope I'm not affending anyone, this is purely me and my thoughts. Should I think different, I think so, I wish I was strong to face this with the part of my brain that understands he's sick. I'm sure I'm wrong here!

If I sound upset I must always be upset, I still wonder if its my defensive shield, I had a horrible childhood, I thought this M was my grace.

[albamarie]

I'd go with "Steel is forged in heat so it can withstand battles" a bit more. But what we are really saying is, we can choose to become stronger and discover a lot about ourselves during these ordeals.

I like that, steel it is! But, I worry that the way I am already thinking I may become to cold and solid to allow anything to penetrate.

Still working on trying to not let what h does ruin me! I'm working on that other side everyday!

[nero]

Hey hi dawn-

Sorry you're havin a bad spell - take a deep breath.

What’s wrong w me? Is this a defensive move on my part? Do I really hope the next time he’s asleep this is it…nice and quiet please let this be over? She asked me if I love him, I said no, she asked again, I looked her in the eyes and said, no. She then said in his current condition…I choked on it, but I gave her “in his current condition’’, though I am not sure I mean it.

Hey- is it crucial to KNOW? IF YOU MEAN IT? I've had people ask me- tell me i do - tell me i don't - tell me what i should be doing, feeling, etc.

Honestly- can't we just give ourselves permission to not know one darn thing about us or them or the sitch??? it's where i am at. i hate it allllllll- i am not sure what i feel about him- i do not lust after him- mostly i look at him and i don't even see who i used to. my emotional state currently - his defection & treason. i don't know who he is, so how can i know what i think of him or feel about him? i haven't even discovered who the real him is (now?). i haven't even become sure the old him is dead and buried. wtf??? it's a giant state of flux -

I have no idea why i am enduring this- trying it- don't even want to contemplate the possibility i could be crazy enough to think he will magically "change back".

im'doing it becaue i have no good idea at this moment what to do otherwise. maybe you too? . as stupid and simple as that. it's "something". so why do we have to be all intellectual and knowing about it- i'm a big believer in us just all being some well-meaning animals and going by our instincts alot of the time. can't it just be that? and okay therefore?

i know we're all supposed to think we're superior to animals - but honestly i think not - IN A BIG WAY. WE'RE merely animals trying to fool ourselves into thinking we're "better" than the other animals and i do n't think we are .man wouldn't be so cruel and nuts if we were better really.

how in the world would we know what we feel? who in the world is "expert" at this???? looking at the person you loved beyond reason and sorting thru years and years of surety to look objectively (ha!!) at someone they've become- are- always were? SOMEONE CRAZY.

it maybe temporary- or forever - we don't even KNOW that. i don't even KNOW what i feel or am doing (really) - so how can i know what he feels or is doing- and i don't think he does either - or your h either.

SOOOOO - I'M SAYIN - LET YOURSELF OFF THE DARN HOOK here- why in the world would you think you should KNOW ??? you're just a girl - doing the best she can in a bad sitch. like the rest of us.

i honestly do not know what i feel for this guy anymore. he is nice alot and shameless and hard and cold sometimes. who can "feel" one thing about such a schizophrenic? not me- not you-

maybe if all the dust were settled and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt who he was and would be forever -

is that likely to happen anytime soon? idont think so. this db is alot of "faith". OR just a technique to help us ride thru this- "thinking" we have a "way" or a "plan" or something.

since you've detached alot - it's worked a bit - right?? - so progress & it's helped a bit.

. I am so sorry to hear you in agony over the question of "knowing" what is REALLY going on in your heart.. if it makes you feel any better - i'm putting on a show too. it stresses me out to lie and be a fraud and not my true self.

every single person here who is adapting and trying to bite their tongues rather than have "the talk" about the r, m , L whatever - all the stuff we'd jump in and do in "real life" but now find ourselves waking on eggs every single minute of every single day- well, none of us know- or are being "ourselves" or "honest". it's a giant strain- you're feeling it. don't let it make you crazy- it's just the result of this wacky kind of life we're tryin to live.

can ya go do something terrifically physical that wears you out? working helped me alot- totally busy- distracted and on my toes for a whole day- too tired at nite to think and that was a blessing. as soon as h leaves i'm gonna figure out somewhere else to go work or do something- get out of the house- stop remembering him being in my life- etc.

have a glass of wine- go somewhere and quit demanding you KNOW anything. all you have to do is breath - keep going forward as you have been- and assume that wisdom will come- remember that- just be receptive when it appears-

the universe will call you- i'm pretty sure.

xxoo hang on- there's nothing wrong with you. she's just asking you about a total stranger - why wouldja know? (besides - why are you obliged to answer to anyone? - only dawn)

[RosaLinda]

Don't you dare say you hope you're not offending anyone pouring your heart out on your own thread Dawn Marie, don't you dare. You are hurting -- this man you loved beyond reason has as you said put "someone else between us, I think I'm so infuriated at that one act, that I am willing to WAW from him totally. Sometimes I wish he slept around for a few months and never created an emotional tie, that bond is soo dependent, and deep that I believe it's deeper than w ever experienced being M. I actually think he likes EA more than he ever liked me, if only she wasn't an alcoholic, bi polar, scitsilfranact, he takes the time to see the person behind all that, and he says there's a good person there."

Maybe there IS a good person behind his crazy alkie OW, but that doesn't mean his bond with her is stronger or deeper than the bond you had. The deepness of it is all in his mind, crazy, mixed up MLC made-up lies.

Nero is right -- there is absolutely no reason any of us should be able to understand what is going on in either our own minds or in our MLCer's minds.

"Honestly- can't we just give ourselves permission to not know one darn thing about us or them or the sitch???"

Yes we CAN. I give myself permission right now. If you can't give yourself permission, how about this -- Nero and I give YOU permission too.

[Ab Fab]

Dawn Marie, I may be new to all this, but I do know that you are hurting... When you find yourself in these position you do what you have to do to protect yourself. You have shut off your feelings for a man who has hurt you soooo badly, to stop the hurting. When things change, so will your feelings.

Also, how can a crazy man create a deep, emotional tie with someone? they may think they can, but they think many things... most of which make no sense at all. Don't get caught up in his fantasy - its built on alien soil.

I never though I would be able to look at this situation in the way I am currently. Having a C who listens and understands the illness behind the MLC has helped me enormously, even if it just means that I get to vent at him instead of partner!

Don't be hard on yourself, you don't deserve it.

[albamarie]

Linda, your words are kind and sweet. I'm motherless and it really doesn't help my case. It also really doesn't help that my only training and licence is in a dead industry which leaves me unemployed.

I will never understand this mental illness that has a hold on my H, nor do I want to. I want to be very far away from all of this already, even if it means not seeing him at least for a while. I need a clean break. I will at least take that it's ok to not understan a damn thing!

Tonight he said how could he like EA more than me, there is no comparison, it's not even a question. I said, but it is her you are tripping over to call and visit, sometimes you ignore my calls. He says it's because of the flip that he is searching for the chaos. I'm to good for him, I don't give him grief to feed his anger, BLAH!

NEro, I think lots of us put on a show, we are the peace keepers! I just wanna throw peace out the window, and give him some of my chaos, oh I got chaos, it's to much about the real world and life he says.

I told H tonight that the reasons for his flip, anger, that he calls it, because of wall street crash, is soo much more that anything society put on us. I told him he became the very thing he got angry about in the first place and worse. That he has done more damage since than any real estate loss. HE agreed!

how can a crazy man create a deep, emotional tie with someone? they may think they can, but they think many things... most of which make no sense at all. Don't get caught up in his fantasy - its built on alien soil.

All Alone: Thanks for stopping by!
true true, but I know my H and everything he does is in deep emotional thought, even though it's wrong, he called it a trap of his own making.

It makes no sense, but yet it is very real to him, therefore he treats it as real and something he has to play out, he said. SO my pain is just as real then, even though I know it's a bad foundation, it's still in my life, and has hold of my H.

It's just the person between I can never get past. I will leave my M for good because of this, it is that infuriating to me. I read others handling this so much better, I don't understand, and am amazed by the how much anger I have because of this ea. How much I am willing to WAW!

I have the hardest time focusing on me, I need to find me somewhere!

I will read your thread to get to know you. Your not a newbie, you have been at this a yr now, so please, advise all you want!!

[RosaLinda]

I'm sorry you are motherless Dawn. I am too for the past 30 years. My MIL has taken her place, but how can I talk about her son to her? I'd like to. She was furious when he took off with the Russian Tramp for two weeks, then was furious with me for letting him come home. This is a time when a mother's love would help us. 

Maybe a temporary break would be a good thing for you. You sound mentally and physically exhausted. Is there somewhere you could go, somewhere you could visit? To get away from your H and his damn flip? Maybe take a trip with one of your kids?

[nero]

hi dawn-

tennis - thank goodness gone for a few. LISTEN - shielding your heart and feelings after alllll you've been thru is probably a v. good idea. if it comes out as not loving him - say it. it's better out than in i reckon. look atme saying hate sometimes- sometimes it is - it feels like it.

it's bigger than indiffeence (if there is such a ting) maybe it indicates we feellove and caring- the fact that it twists us up in such giant stinkin knots all the time.

so- worse case scenario- you're a cring person- and the fact that he put someone between you make syou want to top him- JUST LIKE ME being so insulted and furious that this h of mine put this stupid cow between us and linda has that stupid cow of a rt between them.

it's the biggest treason in the universe. you were his world and it felt mighty nice. that he began to feel whatever it was that toppled his confidence, ego- brain, whatever

that he grabbed the first biggest feel-good quick fix he could find- a big ole (big butt) silver bullet - just like my h, just like everyone's mate that finds themselves unhappy and like mwd says- blames the person closest. aftr all- you're the guy always there- it MUST BE your fault.

just like mh poor old crazy mom blames me for "hiding" her glasses, teeth, comb, radio, air conditioner, etc. when she can't find them because her memory is heading out the door and she doesn't want to admit fault of her own

they ARE taking the easiest and quickest way to feel good they found- at their fingertips. we're pissed and we're insulted and justifiably so-

you're human for cripes sake- not crazy. you're feeling what that dope created for you- it's a doozy-

gotta blow- hear car- you get my drift. don't question your own feelings - you're fine. he was, like my h, the best thing in your life and you found out it's a fraud (at least now) it hurts like hell-

it does not change who we are- we are WHO WE ARE - AND WE KNOW who that is-

do not let it doubt your wonderfulness - we all need to work on that and keep it constantly in mind.

i'm outta here- cloak & dagger me

xxoo hang on- you're fine really-

who wouldn't want to escape totally and imeedialtely?????i'm askin ya?????

[25yearsmlc]

I'd go with "Steel is forged in heat so it can withstand battles" a bit more. But what we are really saying is, we can choose to become stronger and discover a lot about ourselves during these ordeals.

you have been enduring this now for something like 5 years, right? What is it about your approach you feel is working?

I only ask b/c anyone here for five years, with a spouse who still has OW, (or whatever he calls her) well...just seems to be a cycle that repeats. I did read most of your thread and started with your first.

I guess I'd have to know about boundary enforcement. You set some boundaries. But he won't let her go, and still more or less comes as he pleases.
Is that correct?

So, this means that all of your d's teen years were filled with her wacky depressed in/out dad....a depressed dad who won't get treatment...and that's what SHE got for her fun teen years from her home life? Seems unfair to her.

Have you considered going to Al Anon?

I think there are many similarities about your situation and a wife married to an alcoholic, b/c the mood of your h greatly affects the mood of the house.

And no one controls it but him, and he does not control HIS emotions or actions. He blames "external" factors or says he's so "messed up" that in effect, he cannot/will not change....and so he is still drinking (using the metaphor). Unless you do an intervention, he'll continue.

Ever wonder if all the "Insights" he has about "not being worthy" is just a ruse he uses to try and apply a layer of feigned shame/guilt , to cover the fact that he likes pretending he's 22 y/o..?

I mean, he sure gets away with a lot by blaming a depression A CONDITION for which he won't seek treatment... a lot like an active alcoholic.

His depression and behavior is not that rare, unfortunately. I have seen it here before.



I like that, steel it is! But, I worry that the way I am already thinking I may become to cold and solid to allow anything to penetrate.

After five years of this nonsense, I'd be surprised if you didn't develop some protective armor.

I just worry you are mostly waiting to see what happens with him "This day/this week/this month" to determine the course of your life.

But the real question, and I mean it sincerely, given what you have already alllowed, is there anything HE can do, that would get you to file for divorce?

I am not asking you to file. I am simply asking if there really is a line beyond which he cannot go. And if so, then what?


Still working on trying to not let what h does ruin me! I'm working on that other side everyday!

Wow...five YEARS of this^^?? I worry what your kids have learned.

What would happen to you financially if you left this "marriage"?

What kind of long term plan do you have? I mean, I don't see him vastly changing.

Just mood changing and navel gazing under the guise of "processing" his past. Where does all that lead?

The reason most Marriage counselors don't help, is that they focus on the past and then, couples end up rehashing their old fights. They do not change their present day behaviors, or find solutions.

So when I see a man with a LONG history of depression and what appears to be self loathing, I see a man living in the past and not taking on THIS day. Also, the appearance of self loathing is not a good sign. it's either an excuse for reprehensible behavior that he can just surrender to "i am a bad person I have failed...so don't expect ANYTHING of me"...

or it's real, and that much less healthy. Either way, it's not a hopeful sign.

This site is solution based. You cannot FIX your h. So how will YOU move forward, and when?

I think it helps to have an internal deadline. Since you got your kids thru high school, what is holding YOU back now?

Why not move forward? IF IF IF there is a chance your h could truly awaken (which means changing his behavior AND absolutely seeking professional help)

it'd be by you really doing something different. As is drop the rope. Move on in your life.

Let him fear losing you and when I say fear it I mean b/c it's true. That he is losing you and that you are moving forward without him.

HE'll know what he needs to do to get you back. The question is whether he's up for that. But why not find out now?

Better sooner than later.

My h began to awaken when I began making plans for life without him AND i mean life with him living elsewhere.

I realized I'd be fine without him. I loved him but could not keep tolerating the leaving and coming and going. So I accepted our marriage was over and began to act accordingly.

I also began to see the upsides of his absence. Just little things at first, but certainly less tension and weirdness when he was gone.

Getting my older d thru high school was my goal. I kept that to myself but knew I"d file if things were not resolved by then, I'd file and downsize. My son was out of the house by then and then, d1 would go off to college so I'd only need a two BR place...

but sure enough, h noticed I was upbeat and making plans for MY life, a job transfer overseas to live in Italy for a year. The pay was not great but with half the marital assets coming my way, I'd be alright financially.

H began to realize he was losing me. In truth, he already had.

So when he probed and then pursued, it took me a year to believe his changes were real...and when we began pieceing, we did well at first. But his mom got cancer, and we began to have too much back & forth and began to backslide.

Well, I was NOT going to be complacent.

I had so little reserves left that I was about out the door.

Then H suggested we attend Retrovaille ( We had NOT gained new tools for reconciling when we began to piece. I had worked on myself and GAL x 2222225, but I knew we needed new tools.)

We had been to a powerful, life changing workshop years earlier, but it is only a few times a year on the east coast. IT's well worth it, but we needed help sooner.

Retrovaille is for couples in crisis and it's a weekend deal WITH a follow up program I highly recommend...don't just think one weekend will solve everything. But it can awaken someone enough, to get them to do the program. it gives hope.

The day I said "I'm out the door for good if we don't figure this out", h found that Retrovaille was coming to our home city, two weeks later, and

ON our anniversary...(sometimes the universe IS clear).

Retrovaille helped us to the point that I can honestly say we'd have split up for sure, then and there, without it. NOTE we were ripe for the tool getting and problem solving.

With him mom's sickness, we knew life had thrown a curve ball that would challenge us greatly. And that we only had a little time.

There's just no way to repair a marriage without tools. You can't fix a leaking roof without tools AND without filling the holes in the roof.

Your h is not working to repair the leaking roof. You are going from hole to hole to put a bucket under each hole trying to catch all the water.

But you know you have to drop the rope for real.

What is there to say? His choice is clear. Making no choice IS a choice.

It's very adoloscent for a person to stand in a doorway between two rooms never choosing one to enter, but never leaving either. One foot in each room.

Adults make a choice. They give up something when they choose something else. They enter one room and to do that, they leave the other room.


While I know he's struggled with depression, there is a lot of self indulgence to his depression.
NOT getting treatment for it
WHILE seeing the damage done to others
BUT expecting so very little of himself,
while seeing himself as the victim of "unfair life events"

is a scenario that underscores the likelihood that he'll never get real help.


And no offense, okay, b/c I know it's very hard to see clearly right now. But there's a TON of enabling from you. A ton.

I strongly recommend YOU attend Al Anon to learn about living with a drunk, b/c a man who's moods and behaviors vary so greatly from day to day is a lot like what we call a "dry drunk".

And the family dynamics are the same. HIS mood determines how everyone feels. There is also mega co dependency going on. No boundaries for him.

Why are your adult kids living at home now and is there a plan for getting them out? Or are they paying enough rent to make up for it?

Do you see any possible co dependency tendencies being passed on?

Did you read "Co Dependent No More"? I have heard many people swear by it.

What did you think about the sections in the DB/DR books about a spouse with depression and mental illness?

Also, I would not hold so tightly to the MLC label.

I did not agree with Mirage's take on the MLC b/c I have rarely seen someone get thru an MLC and become a better person.

Most are changed, they never go back to who they were. SOMETIMES, on occastion they are improved. But the times I have seen that were MLCs that did not last so many years,

and did not have such distorted views of the world and in every case of an MLC improving as a person, it took professional help.

I think your h is not a "dramatically different man over night" (More like an MLC)

than a chronically depressed man, who is lowering the bar on his self expectations and in almost every way, getting worse, not better.

I don't mean to ignore his brief changes or improvements. But over all, the trend is not an upward one in my eyes.

I think he's going to consistently push your buttons and boundaries b/c he has not seen any enforced, has he? I mean, what have you DONE when he cheats on you?

Take him back? Okay so what about when he is without work and playing video games for tens of hours?

I want to help you but you are enabling him big time and you don't seem to see the damage to the kids. But it's there.

What if INSTEAD of what they have witnessed for years now,

what if they saw you move forward in life? What if they saw you detach from this drowning man (who might finally learn to swim on his own)

and saw you content without him? Without "fixing" him or working on him?""

For all your comments about NOT fixing him and NOT taking on his issues, the reality is that the man comes and goes as he sees fit or how he "feels" and if he's on the couch all day, you walk around him, right?

I mean, am I missing something? I read parts of every thread. And I don't see much movement from last summer to this one.

So please tell me where the changes are, that I am not seeing. I don't really count him opening up about his childhood as a change. It's just him rationalizing outrageously self absorbed behavior.

I'm also curious about your own help. What are you doing in that arena?

I wish you well and hope you'll find your way out of this mess.

YOU have to get yourself out of this, which I hope you can see.