It's a great question, Mach. And the brutally honest answer is no. I never, ever would have done it without losing my wife and son to divorce. Wouldn't even have scratched the surface of what I have done/learned so far. Furthermore, to your point - I pretty much hit rock bottom before I started to do things differently. Before I started to listen to you and others.
Where I struggle (and please understand that this isn't a rejection of what you and others are saying) is that she claims that she hit the bottom, too. I guess the difference is that she hit the "bottom" all while having someone pining away for her to come back. Knowing that she was still loved and wanted. Knowing that I was there. I trust that that is the difference because that is what I'm hearing here.
I think one of my problems is that I am undervaluing all that I have done for her since this ordeal began. I'm under-valuing the emotional value of my presence to her. Basically because logic tells me that if she doesn't want to be a family then she SEES no value in my presence in her life. Otherwise, she would not have chosen divorce. Ergo, me just being there, be available is really nothing of true value to her. Does that make sense? I'm not saying that is REALITY, just that that is how I feel and why I struggle at times. Part of me still clings to the notion that if I am there for her enough she will realize that she DOES need and want me in her life. That she will realize that being a family is a good thing. That we are better off together - for both us and our son....and our little frozen guy. I feel that if I give her a taste of that life - even post-divorce, she will want it back.
Now before someone beats me to it, I know the logical question to ask is "how's that been going for you?" - the answer is "good enough to get her to move back for awhile, but not good enough to change her heart and make her want to be a permanent part of the lives of me and S". I get it, the frankness and honesty of the vets here has not been wasted on me. And I have faith in the fact that what you are telling me I need to do is what needs to be done. I purposely use the word "faith" because as I have said before it goes against what I want to do. But thus is the case with DB.
I'm rolling up my sleeves and digging in, it's just a tough thing for me to do.
I hear what your saying Crimson, and im in no position to agree or disagree with your thinking. I'm just wondering if your doing too much work and not leaving enough of a mystery for her to come investigate the "why" aspect of it.
What I would suggest for you does not require you to be cold, rude, mean, or uncaring to your XW. If you need to, then think of this as a cooping stage, b/c you need some space to regroup. And if she should ask about you pulling back, IMHO, you should tell her that after getting your gut kicked in, you need to regroup. If she presents the right opportunity by asking more question, I think you should be upfront with her and tell her you can't go through this again. Tell her that you deserve to be happy and describe the kind of W you want in your life. You have tip-toed around her for so long without expressing these things that she acts as if she thinks you will take bad treatment from her as long as she wants to dish it out. I believe if you tell her some of what you shared with us, it could be the beginning of her wake-up. B/c she KNOWS she hurt you again.
Don't iniate contact and don't respond to all her TM's. That not responding to every little TM is being unavailable. Don't see it as being rude to her. You can answer important ones, and you can act nice and cheery, but I strongly suggest you not accept any of her invitations to things as a family for quite a while. She needs to miss you.....not just miss you being a parent. She wants family......but does she want to be a W to daddy.
Get out and GAL to help build your self esteem from this backseat. Keep your calendar filled with events/activities. Take care of yourself and try not to make any lifelong decisions for a while.
You asked me if I knew of anyone who had success who had a stitch like yours. My BIL had a similar stitch, except there were no small children. As long as he kissed her tail she treated him badly during their S. Once he finally backed away and stopped pursuing her, she decided she had a change of heart and wanted to move back. She never left again. When he passed away some years later, she was grief stricken and I believe truly mourned for him.
I know a young couple that had a stitch very close to yours. They were even D and later remarried. But they never got help to know how to work through their problems. The second M started with the same old problems unresolved. It did not succeed and they got D again.
Unfortunately, I have known more M's where the H was really a wonder man and was crazy about their W's. But when their W's walked away, they didn't have the right tools and never R.
I'm quoting all of this, just to emphasize how much I TOTALLY agree with it.
If I may, I think when Sandi says not to respond to all her texts, that means you do respond to SOME, just not all....
don't go all icey on her. But when she asks, or complains, OR sulks, and she will do one or more of those things, don't crumble.
You have gotten pretty far. But if you can "close this deal", it'll be by doing something different.
YOU ARE MAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE....NOW. So if she's a fool, there's nothing you can do about that but know that other women are out here knowing we'd CHOOSE to love a man like you and it would not be a complicated weird, wishy washy 50/50 thing.
You'd have to be a good liar, over quite some time, for what I'm saying Not to be true.
So keep up with YOUR work, (don't backslide),
and KNOW you're a great catch.
So you absolutely deserve to be with a woman who gets that, and shows it. Period.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you, 25. I'm trying to internalize all of that though it is difficult through the haze of rejection. Funny you should mention texting. I was sitting in my office and the following popped up:
Her: I have heard from you regarding parenting schedule this weekend
Me: Hey! I need to kick off some house projects this weekend so just bring him by st the regular time on Sunday. Hope you guys are having fun ! I miss him so much!!
Her: And re: 4th of July?
Me: I'm going to keep him. I want to cook out in the back yard with him and go watch fireworks later. I've never been able to do that with him. I want to start focusing on experiences with him and I haven't done that much - it's my own fault.
Her (recieved before she got the reply ^^^^ above): I also have to work all of next week. I'll assume we will split the cost of the baby sitter unless you have a better option.
Me: No problem on the baby sitter, I'll pay for Mon/Tue (my custody days, FYI) just let me know how much. Sorry you have to have your summer interrupted with work!!
And that was it. No reply on my decision to keep him on the 4th and not let her have him for the 3rd year in a row. No reply to helping with baby sitting expense.
I know her pretty well. And I am fairly certain she is a little miffed I did let her have the 4th. Just a guess, though. But she did make a pretty solid pitch for it a few days ago and I usually give her what she wants in the name of trying to keep relations good.
I think what you did was great. Pleasant but not a walk over. You sounded like someone you has a life to lead.
M36 W31 S4 S2 T5 M4 BD Jan12 S July12 Recon Sep12-Nov12 ILBINILWY Jan13 OM x 2 in 2013 W wants R July 13 I start D. Jan 14. Meet GF Nov 13 Have I changed enough? Jul 14
I guess what I neglected to ask, Sandi, is if you've ever seen someone in my sitch make it back?
I have seen it. I will post about it later. Just wish I had noticed the absence of any "ILY"s from her, sooner.
FWIW, don't move in with anyone who can't say that. Sorry for the "late notice" on that issue but it's a huge red flag to me. YES I know she may have thought by moving in, it would magically happen.
But it's a "cart before the horse" thing.
Anyhow I don't want to beat a dead horse and I'll post more about what my cousin did when his wife left him. They became friends and seemed like a lot of progress, then it stalled out.
There are similarities. Yes they did remarry eventually. (Not a fast process but it's still happening and now it's 15 years of marriage, second time around).
TTYS, hang in there.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you, 25. I'm trying to internalize all of that though it is difficult through the haze of rejection. Funny you should mention texting. I was sitting in my office and the following popped up:
Her: I have heard from you regarding parenting schedule this weekend just for me to be clear, you mean she said "have NOT heard"...???
Me: Hey! I need to kick off some house projects this weekend so just bring him by st the regular time on Sunday. Hope you guys are having fun ! I miss him so much!!
Her: And re: 4th of July? Me: I'm going to keep him. I want to cook out in the back yard with him and go watch fireworks later. I've never been able to do that with him. I want to start focusing on experiences with him and I haven't done that much - it's my own fault. Lots of details here, that she does not need...and if you have had him all the other times, why is this "never been able to" statement made?
Hey, I don't want to quibble. Just would like SOME mystery from you now and then...or ever
Her (recieved before she got the reply ^^^^ above): I also have to work all of next week. I'll assume we will split the cost of the baby sitter unless you have a better option.
is this what the Div agreement called for?
Me: No problem on the baby sitter, I'll pay for Mon/Tue (my custody days, FYI) just let me know how much. Sorry you have to have your summer interrupted with work!! Okay, small note but I'm curious about the meaning behind it. What is with the "!!!" all over the place? I know, I know, I taught English Comp years ago. But I promise, it's not the grammar I care about here. It's the intent behind it.
You're so darn earnest. Crimson, she chose that job. No one held a gun to her head. And She could be a Sahm if she were still married....oops.
I guess your point is that you assume (reasonably, I bet) that she wanted to be included. And you're not doing that. I agree that you should not.
But giving her details of HOW you two will just be alone all day (maybe I read it wrong) almost sounds intentionally exclusionary (and not that fun).
Remember, This is supposed to be about you GAL, moving on into your new HAPPY life having fun with your son.
AND BECAUSE, as you understand her, She does not "feel" like a wife or girlfriend "should feel"...so why would she be invited? You are not punishing her. You are protecting yourself. There's a huge difference.
You just don't want to play house anymore, b/c it hurts too much when you remember that it's not real. You are allowed to seek out the real thing. And you ought to.
And that was it. No reply on my decision to keep him on the 4th and not let her have him for the 3rd year in a row. No reply to helping with baby sitting expense. It was not clear to me what you were offering. And or, what the div agreement says. Can you elaborate?
I know her pretty well. And I am fairly certain she is a little miffed I did let her have the 4th. Just a guess, though. But she did make a pretty solid pitch for it a few days ago and I usually give her what she wants in the name of trying to keep relations good.
Crimson
giving into her got you somewhere...and then you stalled out. So what worked, some, before, is not helping you "close the deal." You don't owe her those days...
Then again. I don't know what her "pitch" was. But I know she has taken him out of state, without you, again, for several days. Have you ever done that with him and without her?
Crimson, you've done your part and more. Don't be silent if she protests. Calmly speak your views.
I get why you don't want to be THE messenger of how selective her memory is or how self serving her views are. But it's also weird to ignore it too.
You can warmly detach and still stop leaving so much unsaid when it comes to her opinion or victimhood arguments.
*Speak up for yourself in a way that is almost sedated sounding, which I suggest b/c she thinks you two are 'fighting" when YOU think you are merely discussing.
I used to imagine taking a real "chilll pill" before discussing touchy topics with h, b/c back then any change in my tone or volume , to HIM,
was me screaming like a banshee. I wish I had taped us. So weird to hear him say "stop screaming" when I'd be talking in a normal voice. Not a "courtroom voice" but a normal speaking tone....or he'd say I was "being sarcastic" when I KNOW I was not. (I sure can be. But he heard what he heard...) So I adjusted my volume and tone so it was almost like I'd taken meds for it.
Yes I still see hope for you and your xw. But I admit I see less of it.
I believe your best chance is NOT by you just going along...
I know you fear that your withdrawal will push her away. In fact,
You fear that your partial withdrawal will CAUSE her to not feel loving or stop developing loving feelings for you...but your present course of action has not closed the deal.
AND moreover,
I think that you detaching in a way that cannot be seen as "anger based" but protective and healthy, will most likely do the opposite.
Finally she'll be seeing you as the world sees you, ( a great catch) and fearing the loss of you, might well uncover some jealousy - and hopefully awaken her. If it does not,
IF it reveals that she does not have what it takes to be your w again, that is not a "cause" of her lack of emotional connection,
it's just something your detachment revealed faster. It's best to find out now, before another child is brought into this world and your heart is ripped open again. AND Crimson, If it does not lead to her return, in full, I don't think anything would. So Better to know now.
Detach lovingly...swim to the other shore and stop looking back over your shoulder to where you think she was/is...b/c it stalls YOU in the water, and makes you tread water, now & then, going under .
Once you get to the other shore, you can begin your new, freer life and discover another way of living. A way NOT attached to her feelings du jours.
And imo, there will be a day when you find a love that is fulfilling...that you deserve.
AND IF IT IS WITH YOUR X W,
it'll be b/c she swims to you. B/C we all know that she knows how to reach you, if she just gets in the water and starts moving...she'll get to the other shore. So Stop waiting for her, in the water, splashing and telling her "it's warm"...Just Get yourself to the other side on your own and let her wonder what YOU found there.
A warm detachment from her will not cause problems. It just might reveal them. Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Detach lovingly...swim to the other shore and stop looking back over your shoulder to where you think she was/is...b/c it stalls YOU in the water, and makes you tread water, now & then, going under.
Once you get to the other shore, you can begin your new, freer life and discover another way of living. A way NOT attached to her feelings du jours.
Crimson, I can just imagine how what 25 says above must feel to you. I think of it like being lost at sea with your wife and you have to let her go, quite possibly to drown, if you are yourself going to survive. And the utter heartbreak you must feel in having to make that decision.
I get it and it hurts like hell! But...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
A warm detachment from her will not cause problems. It just might reveal them. Make sense?
Me51 W53 S17 S14 M22 T25 Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11
It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.
Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
25 - I did mean to type "have not", sorry. Wasn't trying to deliberately flood with details. Just tried to reply in the same manner that I would if nothing was wrong. As casually as possible. I mentioned some time ago that short answers from me can come off as kind of terse or angry/rude to her. I didn't want to convey that.
I am responsible for his childcare costs on my custody days. One could argue since she has him while I am at work on my custody days that he is in HER custody and therefore she must absorb the cost - but I am not sure that it works that way. Hence, I have always just paid for my days. She wanted to split it in half, but that for SURE is not part of the agreement.
No meaning in the "!!" other than levity one associates with friendly emphasis
I wasn't assuming that she wanted to be included in 4th plans. Rather, I just wanted her to understand that I wasn't stating that I wanted him just because SHE wanted him. I actually had/have real intent. I have missed the last 2 4ths with him....and I always miss him. I don't want to do that again this year.
Her pitch for the 4th was basically "We (she and S) don't get many invites to travel/visit. It's hard to keep him engaged/entertained when it is so hot outside (she wanted to take him to NorCal to see a friend) so please think it over".
I hear you loud and clear, 25. And even though it is difficult I intend to hold my ground on more matters. As history would have it, this ends up in her getting angry and/or proclaiming that "everything has to be my way". It hurts on so many levels to deal with that. Specifically, I don't like letting her down in general - but especially when it promotes her getting angry and moving further away because I am a "jerk". She'll probably say my changes aren't real or something.
I know standing my ground will probably anger her if it means she doesn't get things the way she would want them. That anger will probably be channeled at me and not viewed as a consequence of her own decisions.
I told my friend the other day that there are days when I want to tell her that there are two different sets of rules. One set exists when we are together or WORKING towards being together in some fashion. THAT set of rules has a lot more flexibility and I am willing to be much more self-sacrificing and compromising. The other set of rules is in place when we are no longer a team, no l longer a family, no longer working on rebuilding. THAT set of rules establishes me and S as one household and team and her and S as a totally separate household and team. It changed the dynamic completely. I have been using set 1 forever now - regardless of what we are doing. It can't keep going that way. Is that a bad way to view things? Is it selfish? It is oppositional??
I really don't know if there is a way for me to fully detach in a loving way that would not be read as anger. Or a way to hold my ground that isn't read the same way.
I don't know if she can or knows HOW to swim, 25. No one ever taught her.
! I miss him so much!!