Crimson.....Are we broken or just bent?

[LBH_LC]

Crimson,

I'm so sorry that your R has taken a step backward. I know I would be absolutely gutted if that happened to me.

I can relate so much to your fears. My FiL things my hopes to R are a lost cause too. Remember, we are just mindreading. Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. It can be frustrating when people are so quick to give up on a sacred bond.

We are here for you; vent away!

Lefty

[amy1982]

O crimson I am so sorry about the pain, confusion & uncertainty you feel. I am fairly new to this so don't have a lot of advice, just hope & compassion. I know how hard it is when spouse isn't ready for personal growth. Keep giving her space. You have the answer, you've just been blindsided. you are strong & have done so grt. U can do it!!

[MrBond]

Keep remembering that it's not you who are broken, it's your W. She didn't put 100% into it. Love is an ACTION, NOT a FEELING. Hang in there and you can get through this.

[AnotherStander]

How can you not have feelings for someone that you have shared so much of life with, brought a life into this world with? How could things that I could have said or done completely voided the love she professed for me at one point? Why does it seem that she is determined that there is a better alternative out there for her and our son? How can you say see so many positives in someone and claim to have no feelings? These questions kill

Amen. Tough, tough questions. I've mentioned this before in my thread, but around 4 months before BD my wife told me through tears that she could not survive without me, that if anything ever happened to me she didn't see how she could go on living, not even for the kids. Then 4 months later she's done, doesn't love me, wants nothing to do with me and has felt that way for years supposedly. What was different about me at BD than 4 months before BD? Absolutely nothing. So how could she so completely and utterly change her mind like that in only 4 months, after over two decades together in a marriage that others were jealous of? I'll never know. And you won't either. So do what I did- QUIT ASKING Seriously, those questions will just eat you alive and you will NEVER get a satisfactory answer. We work on ourselves, we detach and GAL, we hold hope for saving our M's alive while preparing for life after M, and we set aside our need for answers. That's how we get through this

[sandi2]

I believe she will use the child as her bait to keep you hooked. She knows you might have the strength to ignore her TM's, so she sends a picture of the one sure thing she knows will get you to look. She has always used him. And, I think she'll try to make you feel guilty about not letting her have him for the 4th. But if you will not let her control you by using your son to get whatever she wants at the time, you will get strong enough to get past it. She may not stop trying to use him as her ticket to get what she wants, but you will see it for what it is.

For what it's worth, I certainly believe you SHOULD take this holiday for you and S. Crimson, let's be honest here. She has been terribly spoiled with you bending over backward to win her back. Now she expects those same old "excuses" to keep working. She told you to think about it b/c they so seldom get an invitation for a trip? Is she kidding? Only a person who has been spoiled would say that after coming from a trip out of state........and won't even respond to how she has never had to go without him on the 4th. Which leads me to this next paragraph.

" told my friend the other day that there are days when I want to tell her that there are two different sets of rules. One set exists when we are together or WORKING towards being together in some fashion. THAT set of rules has a lot more flexibility and I am willing to be much more self-sacrificing and compromising. The other set of rules is in place when we are no longer a team, no l longer a family, no longer working on rebuilding. THAT set of rules establishes me and S as one household and team and her and S as a totally separate household and team. It changed the dynamic completely. I have been using set 1 forever now - regardless of what we are doing. It can't keep going that way. Is that a bad way to view things? Is it selfish? It is oppositional??"

The way I see it, you should tell her exactly what you've said here. It is not a R talk, and it tells her that you are no longer going to play this by her rules. If you will start doing as the court laid out in the papers, it will start to open her eyes to how much you had been giving her and how hard you had tried. She NEEDS to abide by the D papers and see how the real world is. Not to punish her, but to help her see how unreasonable she has been. And even if that doesn't jump start her into getting her eyes open a little more, the fact that she shoved you away and now (and in the future) sees you having a life without her.....compared to her own empty life. She has had you filling in the gaps and rescuing her whenever she had a bad day, and calling the shots about child visitation. She wanted her time and thought you should let her come along with S when it was your turn with him. I promise you that she is going to try it again. She will throw out those same old things that has you already thinking. "You just want everything your way". She will try every trick in the world, when you don't crumble over the old tricks. You won't will you? B/c you have nothing to feel guilty about!

You have been the one to make personal & lasting improvements......not her. You were the one who did all the giving over to what she wanted.. It was not a two-way street. The painful truth is that it would continue to be like this, as long as you were the one doing all the changing, growing, and giving......and she did none. I believe the only way she will change is to really have to stand without there to prop her up.

That's another thing I think she'll try. Look for her to pull the friendship card. And when you agree, then she will "use" and abuse the hell out of it. The only times I have ever seen a D couple be on even friendly terms was after they had truly detached from each other. And then, they did not hang out together, like your xw thinks of "friends" after D.

I believe you are going to see where you have out-grown her. As you have become a more attractive person, she has not done the work (b/c she didn't see where she neede to change) and therefore, she is unattractive in comparison. I hope she will finally accept and put some real effort into improving. It may br the shock she gets of losing you. I don"t think she meant to "lose" you, she just wanted an unrealistic existence in a R. And until she really believe you are moving on.....she will not take that same hard look at herself, an see what others see.

I looked for my book about love being a decision, and remembered I had given it to a D friend to read. I do agree that you can't do more than being the best Crimson you can become. B/c it is like you approaching a door that has only an inside knob. You can't push it open. The only way is for her to turn the know and open that door from inside. And that's what it boils down to when you have this kind of stitch. If she can do what she needs to do, then you will know it b/c she will have no trouble in telling you she loves you. But when a person's heart is closed, they don't feel love for that OP. I think your W thought that those love-feels would push open the door....and it sounds good and seems right in theory, but in my experience, I had to involve my own volition b/c it just wasn't happening otherwise.

When we meet a new person and fall in love, it seems like those emotions have the control over us. But we are very physically attracted to that new person, and we don't have any bad history to remember. Maybe none us would have ever gotten M in the first place, if we had not had such strong feelings. But that is why I believe the WAS says it is easier to have new R than to repair the old one. Yes, it is easier on our feelings! But the WAS is usually led by their emotions, and they are not attracted to the old R person. That's usually the plain, honest truth right there.........even if there is some sexual attraction, the WAS is turned off about "something" in the LBS. the unattractiveness outweighs the attractive. In time, the resentment, insecurity, unhappiness, or whatever, becomes so large that the WAS can't seem to get past it. The heart shuts down.

Now obviously I can only speak from a woman POV. I remember a young lady on here that had a WAH. He was sexually attracted and seem to enjoy their homelife. But he met OW and in the end, he chose OW and D his W. He was still having sex with his W and living with OW. His W tried so hard, but he still chose the OP. So, sometimes there just isn't a good answer when dealing with why people do what they do.

I believe you have started out on the right foot, and I know you are in so much pain. It does get better, and I say this as a mom who watched her son go through so much agony that we were afraid of what he would do. I have not told the board about it, yet. But I saw so much sheer pain in him....and had all the stories from the LBS's on the board running around in my head and it seem so sureal to me. I felt it had come around to bite me in the heart for my own WAW ways. He was losing his W, M, children, and his home. Who would have thought this time last year that he would be in a place that he could say he was okay and could move on.

I only told you about him b/c I wanted you to know that I don't just slap you on the back and tell you to smile and everything will be okay. I have seen D very close and know how it can hurt lives. I have also seen very hurt lives be restored and happy again. That is what I pray for you.

[Crimson]

I don't think she'll try to make me feel guilty about the 4th. Rather, I suspect she will hold onto it as proof that everything has to be my way and that I have not changed in that regard.

I don't know of you saw my blurb on my other thread (sorry for multiples) but similar to last summer I'm getting the "having him 24/7 in the summer is hard and I need your help" message. Sad thing is, I WANT to help. I STILL have this drive to help her, make her life easier - and I have to make a conscience decision to shut off my heart and stick to my guns. I wanted to believe that "being there" for her helps our relationship but it doesn't. It's cake eating.

I struggle to understand how she does not see that the kind of help that she is asking for is the kind of help you get when you are a couple, a partnership, a team. Why is it that she believes she can have all the ease of a two parent home without having to live in one? It just seems so clear that she is missing a partner or the benefits of having one - but not enough to realize we are ALL better off together.

I would never tell her this, but it's hard for me too. When she first left I was often in tears after I put S to bed - wishing to God I had help because I had no idea how to handle a 17 month old. It was awful, and I had to do it without her because of her decision to D.

You are right about the "friends" thing. She's already said in TM "we will be friends forever....." I just don't think I can be there like that right now. If she wants to work on R, that's one thing - but not like this.

[InnerStrength]

Hey Crimson, you've been doing this a lot longer than I have, but I wouldn't worry about whether she'll hold onto it to use against you in a future argument about having your way.

I noticed when I started putting my foot down on things after BD using DB techniques for doing so the right way, W would argue, yell and scream, bring it up months later, etc -- but it was still doing more to rebuild attraction and respect than all the spending time together as friends.

A WAS will find an angle on anything, good or bad, that has happened to support their perspective, so don't let their perspective be your guiding factor.

[BklynMom]

Listen to Sandi.

Your W has you wrapped around her figure and she knows it.

[25yearsmlc]

Crimson,

do you fully understand what Sandi is telling you? I agree with it fully. The ONLY thing your w has not seen from you,

is some detachment. I don't mean merely "NO contact" and some GAL.

I mean "warm detachment."

that means WHEN SHE CONTACTS YOU, you are pleasant and upbeat (not so much with the !!! b/c it's too eager looking but maybe I'm just being a woman who reads into things...)

WHEN she reaches out, you react positively IF IT FITS YOUR Schedule, etc.

But you act as if things are OVER and you are still a nice guy...but you are moving on.

She must fear losing you. AND Crimson, for God's sake, IF she does NOT fear losing you

or thinks she's losing you and does not care,

then it's time to let go for real.

You said "maybe she does not know how to swim", meaning, she might not know how to pursue you once she sees that you are gone to the "other shore"...

well, do you want to be married to someone who does not KNOW -- OR WANT TO LEARN

how to love you?

She has done very little work. IMO, she's calmed down some. She's lessened HER anger and owns 5% of the marital problems and bristles that you'd ever ask her what SHE has done.

Now, to be clear, I think ASKING someone what THEIR work is like, is foolish. A big mistake.

THEY WILL TELL YOU if they have done it AND if they want to share that.

It's not something you'd ask, unless they had cheated or broken your trust and lied, and needed/wanted to earn your trust back and prove that the wrong they did, would not be repeated... etc.

Your w is manipulating you and for her to ask to take S out of town AGAIN, and not with you

is wrong and selfish. You need to be a little surprised at her and let that show. YES a bit indignant but "sincerely curious" about her intentions or self awareness. Many random thoughts and comments came to me and of course you are free to ignore them all. But here are a few...and obviously if they are not true or applicable, toss them!


"xw, you do realize I have not once taken S out of state for any amount of time? How many times have you done that?

I feel as if I'm the only one who read the divorce agreement, a divorce I did not want, but which only I seem to be following..."

XW, I don't know what it is that you think I still owe you. It's unclear to me.

is it MORE time with son OR "more help with son". I find this confusing.

When you claim I am selfish when I say what I want, I feel as if I'm being punished for not giving in to your every single request. It's as if you don't realize how deeply wounded I was to have you come home only to leave, quite suddenly...without much discussion.

As if 'WE" have learned nothing about communicating with each other, which really bothers me b/c I have come to communicate with others a lot more..."
"


Crimson, I don't know that your xw will return. She has behaved with so much confusion for her age, that I worry she's just not going to get it.

But I also know that the "bend over backwards to accomodate her" and to

"prove you are not a jerk"

HAS GONE FAR ENOUGH.

Crimson, get "real data". Live by "real data" about you. Meaning, the truth.

Don't let false data affect you.

You are not a jerk. You are not selfish. (Or at least when you are, you're more self aware than most) and you DO change.

You are a great guy.


So when she pulls the "have not changed, still selfish, old Crimson", stuff,

know that it's not real. And if it is not real, it cannot get inside you.


That worn out cliche is just pure manipulation from someone who is STUCK and perfectly willing to yank your chain (heart) and not regret it, evidently.

I am sorry.

I have advocated FOR her for a long time and maybe I'll see something new from her that changes my mind.

But what I'm seeing now, and for the past several months, off and mostly on, is someone who likes to eat cake.

And you have given her too much cake.

Be happy, be yourself, be a great dad, and move along.

Swim to the other shore. STOP second guessing yourself & looking back. Enough of that. It hinders your forward movement.

No more worries about THIS date or THAT comment, or picture or text...just keep your eye on the goal.

That "goal" is your new life with your son, and someday in a loving R with a woman, who may or may not be your xw --

but not your xw as she is now.

IF there is a chance of her wanting you as a mate, and a man, it has not happened yet.

And the only thing YOU control in this situation is your attitude/availablity to her.

So drop that availability. Not as a dad, but as everything else. No more "in love" with her showing. Show her that you "get it" now. She's done...okay, see you later xw...

Let her absorb that new reality. The new world where Crimson is NOT pursuing his xw OR pining away in his home wishing she'd take him back or thinking about that future baby...

Let her say to herself "OMG what have I done? Did I just let go of a man who is a good provider, LOVES OUR SON like I do, loved ME, "got me", changed for me, waited for me, wanted similar things and was on my team,

b/c I did not "FEEL" ...what?? I miss him. I FEEL LIKE I MISS HIM...b/c he's NOT here.

what do I do now? I FIGURE IT OUT...

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Serious GAL activities will help you enormously. We hammer them here, b/c we know they work.

Actually, I don't recall...any GAL from you, other than being with son, which is not what I mean by GAL.

Meet NEW people and do NEW things, or resume activities you loved.

Take a class, volunteer somewhere, find a new church -that your Xw does not attend--

b/c you are NOT an intact family so let her do the "single mom goes to church" routine...(which, btw, -and Kaffe Diem, this might apply to you--single dads who take their kids to church, GET HIT ON at my church...)

learn a language, study cooking or pottery or something wacky and different and out of your comfort zone


JOIN something...and GAL. Fill your "no son" time with NEW people and activities.

It's for you. But I cannot believe your Xw won't wonder what she let go of...

but you have to let go of her, for her to feel that you're not still holding onto her.