Crimson.....Holy smokes, I'm piecing,

[PatientMan]

Others may not agree with me, but it concerns me that she never told you she loves before moving back in with you. Seems to me that should have been said first, before talks of moving back. If she "couldn't" say it, that would be a red flag that she just wasn't feeling it. Now if she wasn't D and living all this time away, and the two of you had been living together....then I would see differently, but in your stitch...I believe she should have been able to at least say it. Yet she was waiting for those "in-love" feelings to just rush over her and cause her to swoon? Look, I know how long it can take to get those feelings back, but to move back in with you after being S all that time and not able to say she loves you.....something is off. It seems like the cart before the horse. The two of you could have worked on that part without living under the same roof, IMHO.

I remember how she would panic if she thought the two of you might be alone if your son wasn't going to be there with you. I remember you referred to going someplace as a "date" and she got so skittish that she called it off. So how much time did just the two of you have alone, before she moved back? Were there any romantic times before she moved back?

Puppy used to ask this question....and it absolutely nailed it. How did she kiss you? A woman can have sex without ever really kissing passionately. Maybe the man notices, or maybe he is just happy getting sex. If she is really attracted to him, she's going to show it in her kisses.

Then Bond said something I've always believed, too. I have not said it as often as I would like, b/c it doesn't set real well with the mods if I do. But here it is as Bond said:

Originally Posted By: MrBond
"That's why it's not uncommon for there to be several "false starts" when it comes to recovery. It's usually not until the LBS gets fed up with their lack of trying and actually become the WAS that things start changing.

I think that's your main problem in your stitch. You have always been available. Too available! She never had to experience how most women live after D. If she needed anything, you were there. I would get so angry at her, b/c she sounded so spoiled and selfish. She has really had a lot of cake to eat!

I know you have made tremendous changes in yourself. I believe everyone here admires you in those great accomplishments. I am certainly among them. However, I will admit that there have been many times that I wanted to reach through the computer and shake you... Why? B/c you have been too good to her! It doesn't work on most WAW's that left for the reasons she gave you. What did she lose due to the D? Besides the obvious comforts of life you had given her, what else? She sure didn't lose you. Ever! She had you around, and she called the shots and made sure you knew not to press your luck. She wanted you for a best friend. At what point did it change to lovers?

Crimson, you're a nice guy. I don't know how you may have been in the past, but you are a very nice man, now. You have been extremely available and "giving" to your XW, trying so hard to prove your changes. But in MHO, all that's left is for you to do what Bond said. She will not pursue you if you're always there at her beck & call. When you did not initiate contact with her when she went to visit family, didn't she break down to contact you? If she saw you passing her up for a better life (and the possibility of meeting a better wife), she would start to realize just how much she really wants you in her life. But she has to see that she wants you more than just a best friend who will do everything with her and son. She has to see you having a life and being happy without her. She has to see you taking son and not including her in those parent-child activities, even if she should ask in the beginning. The two of you continued as a "family" after the D, but when she didn't want you to be with her & son....she had no problem telling you! She had the best of both worlds. I seriously saw no difference after the D was final and she continued to play her games and treat you so badly. You were still available to her! That is one of the first things MWD tells the LBS....is not to be so available.....and that's before a D, so I would think it would go double after a D. Your XW is wanting that second baby, still, and she needs to realize that she can't have both....the family togetherness and a divorce. That's exactly what she has wanted and has had ever since she left you in the beginning. That's what she wants by having this second baby. She has you and the kids but she doesn't have to play the role of wife.

You can't stand to think about other men dating your XW, but don't you know that if it were turned around and knew you were dating other women that she would feel the same about you? If she didn't, then you don't need to hang on anyway. But the biggest change in her will come if she believes you are dumping her. As long as it was her dumping you, it was fine. But just you watch what happens if she sees the new Crimson dumping her.

Thank you, sandi2. That was exactly what I needed to read so I stole it and put it in my thread.

Can I carry you around in my pocket for a while? Your timing is impeccable.

-PM

[AnotherStander]

So maybe this is my problem right now - I don't know exactly what to do right now. I thought about this on the drive this morning.

Do I just go dark 100%? I can see the logic in it, but at the same time I greatly fear that this would be read as me not getting what I want and taking my ball and going home.

You have fear of doing something different, because it doesn't "feel" right. A lot of people fear DB'ing because it's what? Counterintuitive. It goes against what we "feel" like we should be doing. Just remember, it took months or even years for your sitch to get to this point. No one thing you do is going to derail things overnight. And you can't trust your feelings. Our feelings tell us to beg/ plead/ negotiate as well, but out of the zillions of times that has been tried it has yet to work, LOL! So give going dark a try and see how it goes. Evaluate it in a few weeks and if your sitch is getting worse then try something else.

[PatientMan]

I strongly believe that it is time to just move on with life. It's just difficult because I still love her and want my family back desperately. And I haven't given up hope. Sandi, as you may have read in previous posts I am terrified that lack of contact will be read as lack of interest and she will just be gone. Or just be glad I'm not interested. I don't want to be "out of sight, out of mind" with her. Now, I KNOW that doing the opposite hasn't done much for me in terms of long term success and breaking down her walls and restoring feelings. But I am so worried distance will push her away even though I know it MAY also make her further contemplate her loss.

...

I don't know how she would react if I were to date. I kinda feel like I would get the "well-good-I-want-you-to-be-happy" response, but part of me believes that if she truly knew or saw that someone was getting the love, affection and attention that has always been hers without question, she would struggle. She, like me, would probably have a hard time with the notion of another person raising our son.

I really need guidance here, Sandi and others. I really am not finding my way well this week.

Crimson

Get out of my head!

Seriously, I may not be of much service to you other than we seem to be in almost the exact same spot with our XW's. They want all the advantages of us without any of the responsibility or accountability.

I guess the question we have to ask ourselves is: do we have the stones to enforce that this is not okay/fair/viable/sustainable behavior with us?

All the best.

-PM

[ALF213]

A lot of good advice in this thread. It really has me thinking.

I've been following along, Crimson. Wishing you the best.

[sandi2]

There have been many LBS's on the board that I felt emotional tugs on my heart b/c of their stitch. There have been a few that I just felt were special (like a son or daughter). Crimson, you are certainly one of those special people who can just make my heart ache when you are suffering. So let me tell you, there is nothing I can see about you that says you are anything close to an ahole. I don't think you were one when you first arrived here. And I don't believe a man has to be one if he decides to drop the rope.

I don't think you would be able to go dark b/c of sharing a special little boy with her. Right now, I don't know if you could even drop the rope. So, maybe you just need to take a few days at a time until you feel you can make a clear decision. I do suggest that you try real hard to pull back while you are going through this emotional ordeal. B/c I think she'll jerk you around and you'll be right back into the same thing.

Put simply I read her anger as something that results in her rejection of me. I am not saying this is logical or justifiable - it's just where my head goes.

Remember that she finally admitted how you've made so many changes and that she was broken and still had some problems. I'm not quoting word for word, but something to that affect. Knowing how we women can be, I think she had these problems before the bomb and you were her target. You may have been a part of her unhappiness, but I sure don't think you were the sum total. It has always sounded to me like she was a bit immature about MR's. Listen, I know many women who dream about men being just like the character they read about in a romance novel, and that they should just melt every time he walks into the room. I can't remember if you were one I have already told this. It is an unrealistic view about love & especially sharing years together in a real world as a couple. If a woman compares her R against anyone else (real or fiction) then usually hers will come up very dim in comparison. Now I don't know if deep down in her mind she expects more out of the R or she's expecting you to "make" her happy in spite of her own efforts......IDK. I'm just saying I know of women who are a lot older than your W who has those immature expectations. It's a lot easier for her to blame you for her not being happy, right? She takes her own responsibility off the hook by pointing a finger at you.

The bomb was a severe wake-up call for you. But has she had a wake-up call? I believe the WAW has to have some kind of wake-up. Sometimes feelings return with the wake-up and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they just have the fog cleared to see they are making a big mistake and decide to do the right thing. Once the right decision is made, then the real hard work starts. Those in-love feelings sure would make it easy, but it just doesn't work that way in every stitch.

If she looked at moving back as a trial to see how it went, then she would eventually find something wrong. I understand why you felt so rejected the first time and how this time around stirred all of that hurt up again. It's logical to take it personally. However, I hope you can find the strength to not take responsibility for what was not your fault. If you can do it, I believe it will help to release some of the pain. We can't make another person love us back, and we can't make them happy if they don't want to be. When you can cut loose from that hold it has on you, then your life is going to be a lot more carefree. This feeling of fear and rejection has kept you a prisoner long enough.

I am terrified that lack of contact will be read as lack of interest and she will just be gone.

I know you are. Just as all newcomers are afraid to pull back for the same reason.

Or just be glad I'm not interested.

I don't think that will be the case. It was her that wanted to move back, and it was her that contacted you when she was away on her trip. It is your fear talking to you.

I don't want to be "out of sight, out of mind" with her.

So you want to constantly remind her? You aren't that forgettable my friend. Seriously, I know what you mean. You are afraid that she won't have any problems moving on.

But I am so worried distance will push her away even though I know it MAY also make her further contemplate her loss.

Why I believe it works as a LRT, is based on good old human nature. You don't have to map out your life's plan tonight.

Crimson, I have to go....get back with you shortly.

[25yearsmlc]

Bond -

You drilled the hell out of the nail there on the whole "just come naturally" thing. She said while living back at the house that she feels that there should be a "flow" to things where everything just kind if works. And that in this "flow" you're not always having to change or self-analyze or anything.

After nearly 32 years of marriage, I completely disagree with your wife on this. Marriage is "naturally" and ebb and a flow thing.
You don't leave when it ebbs...

There are times you "stand in the doorframe during the storm" and you wait for it to pass (like after the death of a parent). and times when

you DO something to ensure it does pass...and gets back to the "flow".



How you are then and there is always sufficient. Likewise, on your "just come naturally" point, she said that she felt like she was "forcing" things with us....with me. Things that I guess she just thought "should come naturally" - even after all that we have been through.

She did read books, but I feel as though a lot of them (not all) were about self-actualization and not relationship/marriage skills and realities.

I have found that in times of crisis we tend to seek out opinions, beliefs, and points of view that already comport with what we already believe. It keeps us from having to challenge ourselves. Look at my early posts - I was NOT challenging myself nor was I inwardly directed. At all. Period. Why? Because it hurts. Well, it did for me at least.

THEN what happened Crimson? What made you come back HERE when we all know you did not simply find others to agree with you....so, why'd YOU come back?

B/C you're braver? it probably is one reason. That's the thing that most strikes me about what distinguishes you from your wife. She is not brave.

She does NOT want to look within. And I don't know what you can do about that...except maybe model it. But don't slide down into letting her believe that you are the only one who needed to make the journey.

The real journey in life is an inward one. And love IS a choice. In fact I think it's mostly a choice.


Does this happen a lot in the reconciliation process, Bond (and others?) - these "scratch landings" where things are ok then go pear-shaped all of a sudden? Will we ever get it back? Honestly, what does it take? What does it take on her end? For a fleeting instant it felt so much like we were moving in a good direction. At this point I am willing to state that it is no longer just me. I have really tried to do my part of the work.

Crimson

[Crimson]

Thank you, Sandi. I have gained a lot from reading your posts to me and others since I have been here. I am honored, flattered and grateful that you have followed my situation and took an interest in it. You have been an invaluable resource as I try to put my family back together.

After reading what you and others have wrote so far, I remain perptually baffled. Allow me to explain, though I am sure I have gone here before.

While she was here she threw out SO many positives -

I've noticed your changes
I just love watching you be a good dad to S
You are so handsome
You are a different person
And so on.....

Then I start thinking -

We're 40
You have a man that has walked through hell in gasoline soaked boxers for you
You have a man that clearly loves you without conditions
I'm not a cheater, strung out, abusive, irresponsible, etc.
There isn't another man on this earth that loves S as much as I do - same as you
We went through hell and IVF together to start a family
I've shown the ability to change, to listen, to grow
We BOTH want a family and another child
I haven't "let myself go"
I have a great job and have always been a rock solid planner and provider

Please believe me when I say I am not patting myself on the back here - I'm just making the point that when I talk to my other single female friends they ALL say that finding all of that at our age is tremendously difficult. How can she hold the positives in one hand (I have flaws, plenty) and then hold the negatives in the other hand (articulated as lack of "feelings" and "closed heart") and throw it all into the wind? How can you not have feelings for someone that you have shared so much of life with, brought a life into this world with? How could things that I could have said or done completely voided the love she professed for me at one point? Why does it seem that she is determined that there is a better alternative out there for her and our son? How can you say see so many positives in someone and claim to have no feelings? These questions kill

[sandi2]

Ok, I'm back.

What I would suggest for you does not require you to be cold, rude, mean, or uncaring to your XW. If you need to, then think of this as a cooping stage, b/c you need some space to regroup. And if she should ask about you pulling back, IMHO, you should tell her that after getting your gut kicked in, you need to regroup. If she presents the right opportunity by asking more question, I think you should be upfront with her and tell her you can't go through this again. Tell her that you deserve to be happy and describe the kind of W you want in your life. You have tip-toed around her for so long without expressing these things that she acts as if she thinks you will take bad treatment from her as long as she wants to dish it out. I believe if you tell her some of what you shared with us, it could be the beginning of her wake-up. B/c she KNOWS she hurt you again.

Don't iniate contact and don't respond to all her TM's. That not responding to every little TM is being unavailable. Don't see it as being rude to her. You can answer important ones, and you can act nice and cheery, but I strongly suggest you not accept any of her invitations to things as a family for quite a while. She needs to miss you.....not just miss you being a parent. She wants family......but does she want to be a W to daddy.

Get out and GAL to help build your self esteem from this backseat. Keep your calendar filled with events/activities. Take care of yourself and try not to make any lifelong decisions for a while.

You asked me if I knew of anyone who had success who had a stitch like yours. My BIL had a similar stitch, except there were no small children. As long as he kissed her tail she treated him badly during their S. Once he finally backed away and stopped pursuing her, she decided she had a change of heart and wanted to move back. She never left again. When he passed away some years later, she was grief stricken and I believe truly mourned for him.

I know a young couple that had a stitch very close to yours. They were even D and later remarried. But they never got help to know how to work through their problems. The second M started with the same old problems unresolved. It did not succeed and they got D again.


Unfortunately, I have known more M's where the H was really a wonder man and was crazy about their W's. But when their W's walked away, they didn't have the right tools and never R.

[Crazyville]

You've gotten a lot of great advice here. I think you simply weren't prepared for the setback, believing you were on the road to reconciliation. No one would blame you for thinking that. I'm sorry for this setback, but it isn't necessarily the end either.

I don't want to be "out of sight, out of mind" with her.

If you really believe that she feels that way, why would you want to R with her in the first place? I can't think of a bigger cut than being "forgettable" to someone. I understand your fear, but wouldn't you rather know the truth now, rather than suffer more pain/stress/anger/frustration while hanging onto hope for the impossible?

Have you asked yourself the tough question of whether perhaps your W was only doing this to acquire another baby? I would hate for that to be the case, but she sounds desperate, and desperate people do desperate things. And you have "been there" for all of her other demands, perhaps she thought she could sweet-talk you out of this, too.

[sandi2]

I think Gary Smalley talks about the woman with a closed heart. It's been ages since I've read about love is a decision, but I remember him showing a diagram, and what he said about it. Mainly, the more the heart is open, the more we will feel emotional love for the other person, and the more closed, the less we will feel emotional love. The more open her heart is....the more influence you will have with her and get closer to her. But when it's shut tight, you are powerless in your attempts. Like Bond said, it's up to her if her feelings return.

I remember fighting the idea of love being a choice, b/c I was basing it on "feelings", much like your W is doing now. When we get M, we should be making the decision to love our S in the bad times as well as the good. We are committing to love the person and not the behavior. Perhaps that is part of the problem for your W. In spite of all your wonderful changes, she was not committed to loving you. That is why a "trial bases" doesn't always work well b/c it leaves a big out for one of them to flee at the first sign that bliss isn't happening.

"Does this happen a lot in the reconciliation process, Bond (and others?) - these "scratch landings" where things are ok then go pear-shaped all of a sudden?"

I saw a statement I thought applied to piecing, as well at any stage: "It is normal in married life to have periods of romance and disillusionment. This cycle is often repeated – sometimes over days, weeks, even months." So, we can see why a couple has to have the commitment to carry them through when the feelings aren't helping things "flow" easily.

Did she make any commitment when she moved back? I think she is afraid of it. It seems she wanted to test the waters to see if the romantic feelings returned. When it didn't measure up to her expectations, she fled. If you see a conversation as a discussion, and she sees it as an argument, that sounds like a good communication therapist might be able to help get over that hump. But I believe both of you would need to go, in order to be really effective in the R.

Sandi, how can she just look right past me? Someone that loves her, her son, wants a family, and wants another child?

I don't have an answer that will satisfy your heart, much less sound logical. My stitch was nothing like yours, but on some level I think that the WAW's share some part in common. When I was the WAW, I "knew" nobody would ever love me as much as my H did. Deep down, I knew it, but it did not automatically cause me to love him in return. I felt so dead inside. I had been so unhappy in my M for so long and was very lonely. I was suffering from affects of menopause. I had suffered from physical problems that doctors couldn't help me very much. I had depression for years and had been jerked around with different medications until I truly don't know how much a part of that affected me emotionally & mentally, but I have never blamed it for my choices. I take full responsibility for my bad behavior. What I’m saying, is it took a long time for me to get into the shape I was in during the WAW time. I didn't just get up one day and found myself with those feelings. So, the same is true when trying to work your way back. It was going to take a long time for me to get back where I once was. Now, I still have my physical problems & controlling the depression, and I know I won’t ever feel like I did ten years ago, so there has to be an “acceptance of the reality” on my part. I always felt like I had a MLC, but people on the board kept saying I was too old! Now if that was supposed to help...it didn't. (jk) It was hard to face the reality that I was quickly losing my youthful looks and was considered ……of all things...a senior citizen. It still doesn't sound right when I say those words, but the reality is……I’m there. I had to look at myself and see the old fool I had been, and to see the destruction I had caused and not point fingers. I knew the proper & right thing to do……which was to end the EA and stay in my M. I was able to do that part, but like your W...I just did not have those yummy feelings toward my H. But I think I may have been worse than your W, IDK. I had to go through my own personal work before I could work on my MR. That meant my MR was put on hold. It wasn't fair to my H, but my heart was closed to him. He finally realized he could not do anything as long as my heart was closed. I had so much anger and years of resentment I couldn't seem to dismiss. Then once I started to let go of the resentment, then there was the issue of having to live with what I had done. Maybe when you feel she is looking past you and your love, she is thinking of her own doubts.

At the point where you are in this, I do believe it is her problems of “whatever” that are keeping her held back. I think your W still has issues she needs to work through before she’s ready to commit to a MR. I think she really likes having you to help her with parenting, and as her best friend. In fact, I get the impression she is dependent on you to fill in the gaps of her life. That’s why I said she’s never really been without you. She’s not experienced the full reality of being on her own….without you there to talk to or to go do things with her & S. I believe one common attribute WAW’s share is being too focused on “their” feelings above H & kids, and having a sense of entitlement to happiness in life that the M just isn’t providing, and wanting to have the best of both worlds without seemingly seeing what they’re doing. They don’t seem to have a sense of fairness to the H. They have resentment of past issues in the M that they haven’t dropped. They feel “done” and spent.

Something I believe all WAW’s have to experience (and MWD agrees) is that they have to suffer some type of loss due to their decision to walk away from the M. Even if she never physically leaves the home, she needs to experience and take responsibility of whatever it is she has lost. It could be her reputation, or a relationship with her children, or her H moving on, or a number of things. But it needs to be severe enough that it works much like the bomb did to you. That is why the LBH is so motivated to work on the M...b/c it is a wake-up call, while the WAW has no motivation to work at all.

The fact that she attempted was progress made in the right direction. But if she doesn't get that wake-up call, you may be doing this same thing for a long time...or until you just crash & burn and can’t do it any longer.