No more games- suckerpunch

[swoop]

Well, first and foremost I will admit that I was not detached, with the feeling of "big deal". That was a farce, perhaps I was trying to make myself beleive.

in regards to daughters safety, there wasn't any issue with her physicial safety that I was aware of. My issues were more in regards to the modeling she was subject to. It has been an issue with me since the birth of our daughter. This friend, the "dunk" is a very caring person. She is a close friend of wifes, why? I have no idea. My biggest issues with her are her drinking and lack of moral values. To put it simply, she is very inapropriate. She is a drunk, and she is not kid friendly in regards to her words or actions. The flip side of this is, wife and daughter think shes the bees knees. Me stepping in during that situation would leave me looking like a complete idiot. Daughter was in no physcial harms way, but at the same time this relationship has been present daughters entire life. I am not sure why it bothers me so much more now. Perhaps, because I know wife is using her as a babysitter while she chooses to spend time with OM, rather than spending time with daughter in the limited amount of days she has available to her. It just doesn't settle well with me. I am sure wife would not ask me to babysit while she goes off and doinks another man, to put it bluntly. So, I am experiencing double the reasons for my anger to flair.

Here is the situation regarding Fathers day and how I repsonded to it. Wife asked me if she would be able to take daughter. On any other day, my answer would have been an absolute NO. However, my wifes grandfather, a man I dearly admire, is leaving his home to move 12 hours north where another family member can care for him. He is in his late 70's, with deteriorating health. It is very likely that the day in question would be the last time my daughter would likely ever see him. I felt it was important for her to be there to see her great grandpa off for the last time. That is the sole reason why I agreed to the request, and it was also the only reason I allowed the time to be extended. Bearing any unforseen tragedy, I will have many more chances at fathers day with my daughter. That is what drove my decision. I did not ask to attend. That would have been the most sincere form or pursuing I can think of. I am sure you would have let me have it for ever mentioning something like that. I was however very hurt that I was not asked. It was not my place to request and invite. Wife later told me that she didn't invite me because I do not invite her to my family functions. That absolutely blew me away. I thought that she no longer wished to be part of any of it. I was shocked.

I KNOW that when I am hurt, I resort to anger. I am working on it. I KNOW I am better at controling it and accepting it than ever before. I have vented, but I have not reacted anywhere near how I would have reacted in the past. I am improving.

Oh, and in regards to the family members that spoke with wife. they were actually HER family members, cousins. I was not present, nor did I have any idea the discussions were going on. I was only informed about it the next day. Aparently, wife was making comments that her cousins felt were either untrue or our of context. I am not sure. I did not condone it, but I am sorry that the conversation happened.

I have given LOTS of thought to what LA said about wife checking out a long time ago. I am certain that is very accurate. We BOTH had pulled way back in our relationship for a very long time prior to BD. I assume that doesn't make my chances of reconling to be very likely, and it makes me feel that much worse about the situation. I needed to be more pro-active in my marriage years ago, not months ago. Now, I feel it is far, far too late. I have almost accepted, no not accepted, REALIZED, that wife is never coming back. For some reason I cannot come to grips with it enough to move myself forward. I know I am experiencing personal growth. Perhaps not as much as you would like to see, 25, but its growth and I know it is happening. The unfortunate side of things is along with my growth, there is more than likely not going to be a reconciliation. I have read through enough sitches, less damaged than mine, that never get a second chance. I am fairly sure I fall into that catagory. It really sux!

[swoop]

Oh, couseling. There is a reason I am no longer seeing a counselor. I can't really afford it. My insurance covered some of my previous visits, but I would be incurring the costs myself at this point, roughly 100 bucks a session. I simply can't swing it.

I have spoken with a church pastor who is also a marriage counselor. It helped with my spirituality and my initial sadness, but not in my core issues of anger or always resorting to the glass being half empty. I was only able to get so much out of it.

[MrCAS]

Oh, couseling. There is a reason I am no longer seeing a counselor. I can't really afford it. My insurance covered some of my previous visits, but I would be incurring the costs myself at this point, roughly 100 bucks a session. I simply can't swing it.

Yeah, I used this excuse, too. The truth being that there was that there was sliding scale and free counseling available but it is so much easier to blame it on the insurance. See, that way I didn't have to accept any responsibility.


I have spoken with a church pastor who is also a marriage counselor. It helped with my spirituality and my initial sadness, but not in my core issues of anger or always resorting to the glass being half empty. I was only able to get so much out of it.

My guess is because you didn't want to. I see my pastor and I get plenty from it. Mostly because I learned to shut up and listen and be truthful when I talk to him.

Working through to the core of the anger is a painful process. I worked through some pretty awful stuff if you read my threads. That was probably one of the hardest month I ever had. I finally just got tired of being so angry about everything. I got tired of people making comments. I got tired of paying the price for being a constant dick.

You have to get through to that core where the anger is. If you don't it will always fester. I can speak from experience.

[Dubious Hills]

Have you thought about doing something like AA or Emotions Anonymous? *

My girlfriend did the latter as a 12 step program and found it really helpful.

[AnotherStander]

However, my wifes grandfather, a man I dearly admire, is leaving his home to move 12 hours north where another family member can care for him. He is in his late 70's, with deteriorating health. It is very likely that the day in question would be the last time my daughter would likely ever see him. I felt it was important for her to be there to see her great grandpa off for the last time. That is the sole reason why I agreed to the request, and it was also the only reason I allowed the time to be extended. Bearing any unforseen tragedy, I will have many more chances at fathers day with my daughter. That is what drove my decision.

Then why are you so bitter and angry about it? And don't use the "oh I was just venting" excuse again, you are CLEARLY very bitter and angry towards your W over this and you have no right to be. 25 spends a ton of time trying to hold a mirror up to you so you can see your faults and errors and you keep repeating the same pattern of explaining her comments away as if they don't apply. But oh do they ever apply, and you continue to avert your gaze from the mirror she's holding up to you. 25 sees it, we see it, but you STILL don't see it. And you need to. Because as long as you refuse to see it then YOU are the impediment to reconciling with your W and YOU are the roadblock on the road to making yourself the best possible person and the spouse only a fool would leave.

I did not ask to attend. That would have been the most sincere form or pursuing I can think of. I am sure you would have let me have it for ever mentioning something like that.

You are trying your best to control and manipulate us into seeing things your way. Truth darts are being thrown at you and you are holding a flimsy shield up to try and divert them from hitting the target. That shield has a name- EGO. Look, I've been there, maybe that's why it's so easy for me to recognize the same in you. I have some not-so-proud moments in my threads where I let my ego prevent me from understanding some of the comments that were thrown at me. I spent time trying to explain things away to justify my negative behavior. But it wasn't until I got over myself that the real healing and growth began.

I was however very hurt that I was not asked.

Do you understand 25's point that YOU are hurting YOURSELF? Your W had nothing to do with it. She didn't insist on taking D, she ASKED you. You gave FULL PERMISSION. You never once communicated to W that you wanted any of D's time for Father's Day. You and your W are S, things like this are NOT your W's responsibility anymore. YOU didn't take responsibility and now you want to blame W for it.

It was not my place to request and invite.

Says who? YOU. Don't make up rules as you go to justify your negative behavior.

Wife later told me that she didn't invite me because I do not invite her to my family functions. That absolutely blew me away. I thought that she no longer wished to be part of any of it. I was shocked.

And why did this blow you away? Because you don't communicate with your W. You have no idea what her feelings are, you continue to just assume that you know what she is thinking/ feeling.

Oh, and in regards to the family members that spoke with wife. they were actually HER family members, cousins. I was not present, nor did I have any idea the discussions were going on. I was only informed about it the next day.

Who is telling you this stuff? You keep sharing all this info about people beating up your W, then when someone calls you out on not doing anything about it your response is always the same, along the lines of "oh they're not my friends/ relatives, I have no control over that". I think 25 is on the mark when she says you secretly enjoy seeing your W berated like this. You still think this is all your W's fault and you're just the victim. Frankly I think your W is a much bigger victim in this, she's not just being beat up by you, but by every friend and relative as well. And why do all of these people view her as the guilty party? Who would be giving them that impression? I'm sure right now you're thinking it's her, she's bringing it on herself. But you don't realize the subtle and not-so-subtle ways that you constantly attack your W, I'm sure you do it in "real life" because you do it constantly here as well.

I needed to be more pro-active in my marriage years ago, not months ago. Now, I feel it is far, far too late.

Do you assume a defeatist attitude like this in everything in your life? Not sure if you smoke, but if you were a smoker and you got lung cancer, would you say "oh well, I should have quit smoking a long time ago, but it's too late now." Or would you say "screw this cancer stuff, I choose LIFE! I am going to make changes now, I am going to do everything to make the best of what I have left and extend that time as much as I can! I am going to show the world that I can beat the odds!" I've been around both of those types of people. People that quit as soon as things got a little tough, and people that soared like eagles despite facing ridiculous odds. I'm sure you can pause and think of people that fit in both of those categories. Which did you respect? Which type inspired you? Why? Which do YOU want to be?

I knew a teenaged boy that contracted cancer, son of a coworker. He became an activist, traveling with his family to raise cancer awareness and bring in money. Not for himself, because it was too late for him to be cured. He was doing it for others that he would never even know. He fought the cancer hard, he fought bravely, and he fought with a dignity that I've rarely seen. He NEVER let cancer interfere with his PMA and to the end he was a beacon of hope to others. The cancer won and he died. But you know what people remember? NOT a victim. A HERO.

We all have the stuff to be heroes. But first we have to CHOOSE to quit being victims.

[swoop]

However, my wifes grandfather, a man I dearly admire, is leaving his home to move 12 hours north where another family member can care for him. He is in his late 70's, with deteriorating health. It is very likely that the day in question would be the last time my daughter would likely ever see him. I felt it was important for her to be there to see her great grandpa off for the last time. That is the sole reason why I agreed to the request, and it was also the only reason I allowed the time to be extended. Bearing any unforseen tragedy, I will have many more chances at fathers day with my daughter. That is what drove my decision.

Then why are you so bitter and angry about it? And don't use the "oh I was just venting" excuse again, you are CLEARLY very bitter and angry towards your W over this and you have no right to be. 25 spends a ton of time trying to hold a mirror up to you so you can see your faults and errors and you keep repeating the same pattern of explaining her comments away as if they don't apply. But oh do they ever apply, and you continue to avert your gaze from the mirror she's holding up to you. 25 sees it, we see it, but you STILL don't see it. And you need to. Because as long as you refuse to see it then YOU are the impediment to reconciling with your W and YOU are the roadblock on the road to making yourself the best possible person and the spouse only a fool would leave.

I was bitter and angry because of the way she went about it. She asked for 3 hours. Then, she never brought daughter by in the morning, but I figured maybe they were running late trying to get ready. Then, 30 minutes after they are supposed to be here she texts asking for more time. She was already late, even before asking for more time. I admit, I did agree to the terms. But then, she shows up an hour late, and she had to dump our daughter off quickly with a dirty face and a hungry belly so she could go spend time with OM. I ended up with roughly 2 hours, out of the ENTIRE day, to spend with daughter. I acted as if. I rolled with the punches, but how am I supposed to feel about that, Happy? What she did was selfish and inconsiderate. Perhaps it was my fault for allowing it, but I know that I would have been the bad guy if I said "no, bring her home now" or not even allowed her to go in the first place. I didn't want that either. I was put in a difficult place and I did my best, or at least what I thought was my best.

I did not ask to attend. That would have been the most sincere form or pursuing I can think of. I am sure you would have let me have it for ever mentioning something like that.

You are trying your best to control and manipulate us into seeing things your way. Truth darts are being thrown at you and you are holding a flimsy shield up to try and divert them from hitting the target. That shield has a name- EGO. Look, I've been there, maybe that's why it's so easy for me to recognize the same in you. I have some not-so-proud moments in my threads where I let my ego prevent me from understanding some of the comments that were thrown at me. I spent time trying to explain things away to justify my negative behavior. But it wasn't until I got over myself that the real healing and growth began.

I really struggle with this paragraph. It honestly feels like you are just trying to point out that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING I do is wrong. I am not trying to manipulate anyone, AS. Do you honestly feel that I should have asked to be invited? Do you honestly feel that I am manipulating you by pointing out that I think it would be considered pursuing? I mean, maybe I am really really not getting the view in the mirror, but what you said here seems extrememly confusing to me.

I was however very hurt that I was not asked.

Do you understand 25's point that YOU are hurting YOURSELF? Your W had nothing to do with it. She didn't insist on taking D, she ASKED you. You gave FULL PERMISSION. You never once communicated to W that you wanted any of D's time for Father's Day. You and your W are S, things like this are NOT your W's responsibility anymore. YOU didn't take responsibility and now you want to blame W for it.

I am going to defend myself once more. I DID make it clear that I wanted time with daughter. That is why I originally agreed to allowing wife to have her from 1-4pm. Every other minute of the day was supposed to be mine. That was our initial agreement. Furthermore, I don't see how, me not being invited and not asking to be invited, is "me hurting myself". Can you explain that?

It was not my place to request and invite.

Says who? YOU. Don't make up rules as you go to justify your negative behavior.

Justify my negative behavior? I didn't ask, possibly because it would have been rude, presumptuous, put someone in a awkward position, the list goes on. For all I knew, the OM was going to attend. Perhaps the whole family discussed it and decided against inviting me because I eat too much. I don't know. I feel it is simply poor ettiquete to invite ones self to a function. It is not like I was accidentally overlooked during the making of the guest list. Perhaps I am wrong in my thinking, but I also thought that asking to be included in her family function was not the right thing to do. Early on in my sitch, I asked to be included at a lighted christmas parade with daughter and several friends. I was told on several posts that was wrong of me to do, because it came off as pressuring and pursuing.

Wife later told me that she didn't invite me because I do not invite her to my family functions. That absolutely blew me away. I thought that she no longer wished to be part of any of it. I was shocked.

And why did this blow you away? Because you don't communicate with your W. You have no idea what her feelings are, you continue to just assume that you know what she is thinking/ feeling.

you are absolutely right. I assumed. I have not been a good ommunicator in the past, and now wife is not even open to most conversations with me. She is extremely guarded. How do I change this? I don't know how to initiate a conversation, outside of daughter, without coming off as pressuring.

Oh, and in regards to the family members that spoke with wife. they were actually HER family members, cousins. I was not present, nor did I have any idea the discussions were going on. I was only informed about it the next day.

Who is telling you this stuff? You keep sharing all this info about people beating up your W, then when someone calls you out on not doing anything about it your response is always the same, along the lines of "oh they're not my friends/ relatives, I have no control over that". I think 25 is on the mark when she says you secretly enjoy seeing your W berated like this. You still think this is all your W's fault and you're just the victim. Frankly I think your W is a much bigger victim in this, she's not just being beat up by you, but by every friend and relative as well. And why do all of these people view her as the guilty party? Who would be giving them that impression? I'm sure right now you're thinking it's her, she's bringing it on herself. But you don't realize the subtle and not-so-subtle ways that you constantly attack your W, I'm sure you do it in "real life" because you do it constantly here as well.

I have given this a lot of thought, AS. You're right. 25 is right. While I honestly feel I am not making any of it happen, I do feel some sort of satisfaction when wife is beat up on in regards to her actions or choices. I have been very much supportive of wife when discussing it with others. I have expressed sympathy for her, mentioned time and time again that she is really dealing with tough choices, that she was not happy and is trying to come up with the best solution for herself and that is she is doing the best that she can. I feel for her. I don't beat up on her. However, I do feel she "gets what she deserves" when others do it. That is a problem that I need to figure out. I am not sure why I feel that way, other than deep down inside I still do believe that her choice to leave the relationship was not fully warranted, not without at least some margin of trying to save the marriage. I feel it was VERY selfish of her to make this choice, while daughter and I have to feel the consequences. Why didn't she agree to trying to work on it before pulling the plug? Why wasn't daughter or I given any input on the decision? I think those feelings run very deep in me.

]I needed to be more pro-active in my marriage years ago, not months ago. Now, I feel it is far, far too late.

Do you assume a defeatist attitude like this in everything in your life? Not sure if you smoke, but if you were a smoker and you got lung cancer, would you say "oh well, I should have quit smoking a long time ago, but it's too late now." Or would you say "screw this cancer stuff, I choose LIFE! I am going to make changes now, I am going to do everything to make the best of what I have left and extend that time as much as I can! I am going to show the world that I can beat the odds!" I've been around both of those types of people. People that quit as soon as things got a little tough, and people that soared like eagles despite facing ridiculous odds. I'm sure you can pause and think of people that fit in both of those categories. Which did you respect? Which type inspired you? Why? Which do YOU want to be?

I don't consider myself a defeatist, but I am a realist. I am here, right now, fighting my fight, AS. If I was a complete defeatist, I wouldn't even be on this forum. I am trying to improve. I am trying to save my marriage. I am trying to be a better man. I need work. I'm not perfect, but I am here trying to find the solutions and work on my problems. You are helping me with that, and I appreciate it so much.

[25yearsmlc]

things that were pressure or pursuit before, are NOT the same now.

Your sitch if further along. And you continue to defend what to ME, is clearly wrong actions on your end.

I don't want to belabor the point but I know you do. That part of you has not changed. You will try to outlast the person disagreeing so you can feel you "Won" but the thing is, I have other things to do with my time.

If you can't see what we see, it's not us who suffer.

I find it interesting how you STILL BLAME Your wife for this divorce while pretending not to, it's just cognitive dissonance in you.

Your were a critical jerk as a h, and that's NOT what you tell other people when they bash her. You tell them your wife is "making tough choices, was not happy" and you feign some compassion.

But it's an act. And I see thru it. You are angry and I predict you will always blame her, you will always see the glass half empty and have an excuse for not changing.

Getting help to change and learn to be a better man, or attending a workshop that can change your life, is "too expensive"?

I can't think of anything I'd rather spend money on. But you can...

Stop pretending that your daughter would never have suffered if your m had continued as it was. And that your wife is doing this to you AND d...

your critical commentary would probably have landed on your d, eventually. But even if not, seeing you put your wife down so often and belittling her (as you still do) would have harmed your d in many ways. Maybe She'd marry someone emotionally abusive. That would be something she saw growing up.

Since I don't sense a lot of change in you or your attitude toward your w here, which I think is real, then I don't see why she'd want to reconcile.

All your claims notwithstanding, marriage to you now would probably be a lot like it was before, b/c you STILL blame HER, and you do revert to anger when you are hurt.

Thing is there are "hurt moments" in every single marriage. Does not give you the right to go to anger every time but you STILL do.

Lovingly asserting yourself as a father on Father's Day is not pressure or pursuit. You could have told your wife you planned something. You could have said you'd drop d by gramps for awhile, AND OR stay with her while seeing him off...but get her yourself so w would not have to leave to return her to you.

Instead of you just defending every act, THINK about what we are saying and the big picture here.

No more quibbling. Life is too short to enjoy these endless scoring contests.

[swoop]

I hear you, 25....and I agree. I do resort to anger. I know. I also don't tell people that I was a jerk during the marriage and wife is not to blame. I don't. I admit that. I guess I need to dig a lot deeper than I ever realized. I honetly didn't, and still don't, think that my feelings were out of the norm. I feel like I have every right to be angry. Apparently I am wrong in my thinking. I just have to retrain my brain to think and accept things differently, I guess.

in regards to "things that were pressure before, are not now". That is something I have never heard a WORD about. Nobody every told me such a thing. I missed that memo. I thought DBing was staying on a straight course. I didn't realize that I could invite myself along at this point. My gut feeling would tell me the complete oposite. I just get so confused by this whole process. I am completely lost as what to do, how to think, what to accept, when to stand my ground when to be passive. I'm just clueless on how to proceed.

I don't intentionally try to manipulate you others into agreeing with my view. I just feel that some things that are said to me is taken out of context, so I elaborate with more detail. I'm not THAT bullheaded. I am just not sure that everyone has clear picture, because some of the things that are pointed out to me seem to be so far off base from my own feelings.

[Jeack]

I hear you, 25....and I agree. I do resort to anger. I know. I also don't tell people that I was a jerk during the marriage and wife is not to blame. I don't. I admit that. I guess I need to dig a lot deeper than I ever realized. I honetly didn't, and still don't, think that my feelings were out of the norm. I feel like I have every right to be angry. Apparently I am wrong in my thinking. I just have to retrain my brain to think and accept things differently, I guess.

in regards to "things that were pressure before, are not now". That is something I have never heard a WORD about. Nobody every told me such a thing. I missed that memo. I thought DBing was staying on a straight course. I didn't realize that I could invite myself along at this point. My gut feeling would tell me the complete oposite. I just get so confused by this whole process. I am completely lost as what to do, how to think, what to accept, when to stand my ground when to be passive. I'm just clueless on how to proceed.

I don't intentionally try to manipulate you others into agreeing with my view. I just feel that some things that are said to me is taken out of context, so I elaborate with more detail. I'm not THAT bullheaded. I am just not sure that everyone has clear picture, because some of the things that are pointed out to me seem to be so far off base from my own feelings.

Sucker punch I can totally relate, Some of the advice people give is hard to hear. But I can tell you, I was in your shoes. My W left and started another R with a guy that she knew would absolutely kill me if she did. I was angry pissed enraged, wanted to kill the guy. Then I just thought to myself that i need to let her go and live her life and that the best revenge would be to make myself a happier person. Read my post I've been smacked with 2x4's by some of the best vets. took it personally until I looked in the mirror and owned my issues. My W is far from perfect and even know I still blame our sitch on her more than me. But i've owned my issues and am still working to make myself better.And i've let the anger go completely and man do I feel alot better. It's funny i spent so much time bashing my W to others. Now she's sniffing around and when I talk to people about my excitement everyone looks at me like I have three heads. I wish the best man

[MrCAS]

I hear you, 25....and I agree. I do resort to anger. I know. I also don't tell people that I was a jerk during the marriage and wife is not to blame. I don't. I admit that.

Yeah? Why not? Afraid of losing face? Afraid that you can't keep playing the victim? Afraid you might actually not be right?


I guess I need to dig a lot deeper than I ever realized. I honetly didn't, and still don't, think that my feelings were out of the norm. I feel like I have every right to be angry. Apparently I am wrong in my thinking. I just have to retrain my brain to think and accept things differently, I guess.

Could you be any more condescending here? Personally, I think you were playing the role of a martyr here. "Oh, woe is me! My wife took total advantage of me! How dare she treat me this way?!?!?"

in regards to "things that were pressure before, are not now". That is something I have never heard a WORD about. Nobody every told me such a thing. I missed that memo. I thought DBing was staying on a straight course. I didn't realize that I could invite myself along at this point. My gut feeling would tell me the complete oposite. I just get so confused by this whole process. I am completely lost as what to do, how to think, what to accept, when to stand my ground when to be passive. I'm just clueless on how to proceed.

I don't intentionally try to manipulate you others into agreeing with my view. I just feel that some things that are said to me is taken out of context, so I elaborate with more detail. I'm not THAT bullheaded. I am just not sure that everyone has clear picture, because some of the things that are pointed out to me seem to be so far off base from my own feelings.

I call BS on this one. You are trying to manipulate us into thinking your way. Time and time again I have read where you keep coming back to re-explain something that happened to slant things towards your side. You are that bullheaded to me. You seem to have this need to be right, vindicated, correct,righteous... Why is that?

Seriously, SP... You talk it but you don't walk it.

My sister was bashing my wife one night. I told her that I could appreciate her having an opinion but she was still talking about my wife and I would appreciate she not talk about her in that manner.

My friend was doing the same thing... told him to back off.

I told both of them that I was just as much to blame, if not more so, to the demise of the marriage.

You need to throw that scorecard away. I did that. No, it is not easy. It is too easy to slide back into old destructive habits because they are comfortable... they are familiar...

Yes, you need to retrain your brain. It might take some help to do that.