Pushing Forward 2

[25yearsmlc]

I apologize for the length of this JP but if you worry that you babble, which I don't get from you, at least your concern can be allayed b/c now you know I can write a Novel here...

Mach1

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

You need to disclose everything or you'll get nowhere. I have never understood people who hide things from their therapists...it is self defeating, almost as if they want to pretend they "tried to get help BUT it didn't work"...

And if your first T, or your 20th therapist does not help you enough, keep searching. But do the work they give you. I sensed so many conditions precedent from you when you were preparing for a therapist, that I could not tell if you were sabatoging it ahead of time. Like you wanted to check it off the list of "trying to get help", but it's not like that.

There is no painless way through this so YES it'll be hard. But you must do this work and get through this.

Why? B/C a man cannot THINK of his mom when he's being intimate with his wife and NOT get help. Don't feel shame. Feel relief that you are working on this.

This particular issue simply has nothing to do with your wife. It's a thing YOU must handle. But note JP, that a problem being handled, is not going to be a problem anynore.

It does not make you a monster; it makes you a person who needs to navigate his way out of some crap from childhood that still affects his adult life.

And you're 44 y/o, so you don't get to blame the "tough childhood" for your present day choices. You just don't.

You acknowledge them and you repair them.

This is a solution based forum and I LOVE that. It means we don't wallow in our repressed memories or the abuse we suffered. IF it is true, We identify it and we process it and we move on. (And yes, I speak from experience with this so I've been there, done that. Better late than never.) We find solutions that work and those are the ones we do.

I attended the Essential Experience workshop again in February (I believe I've shared that with you but check out their website. It's the fastest most efficient way to shift your paradigm and you need that, imo)....

Anyhow, a 43 y/o man there said that he'd like to someday have a successful sexual experience...even just once. B/C he never has...

His problem is not physical, but one that results from terrible abuse suffered as a child. He's still working on it. He found the right combination of resources and, he did the work. And he's better.

So Don't use your childhood or your present day problems as a reason to keep love away from you. You may be hurt but pushing your wife away like that, for so long, hurt you both a hell of a lot too.

I don't see any choice but for you to work this out asap. Truly.



The T was OK and it went OK. Not great, not bad.

It's extremely premature to decide how good or great or "not bad" your therapist is. Don't set them, or yourself up, for failure by having unrealistic expectations.

Most therpaists don't show their cards, so please don't assume that he or she not hugging you or "Looking sympathetic" means a thing. I think the hugging or the sympathy you were seeking is premature AND it is irrelevant IF their words and insights help you. They're not there to be your friend so much as to be a guide to your self healing.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel push off.


Sorry JP but that^ reaction is just not fair or appropriate.

You said he'd see you again, so there is NO rejection from him there. Period.

He said you need a specialist, which makes sense, AND which you claim to understand...(well, do you understand or not? Are you lying about believing you need a specialist?)

You say it's logical AND he'll see you again, but yet you "feel push off"? That is on you.

You also did not sound too fond of him so maybe you projected the "No one can help ME, b/c my problems are so unique and so impossible... I may as well give up now...but I TRIED..."

I don't know why you are choosing to feel this way. Please don't tell us your emotions are beyond your control.
First off, where the head goes, the heart will follow. So you need to start thinking straight. So You'll literally FEEL better when you think better.

That "push off" feeling is coming from you, not him.

Stop the stinking thinking.

It's a negative tape you have in your head. You, and ONLY YOU, have to stop and reset that tape, AND the wonderful news is that It IS possible. I've seen it.

I posted a long, time consuming post to you. I included my story of Carol, who has faced more loss than anyone I know.

She still has a great life, with love, laughter and a wonderfully positive attitude towards her world, & those in it. She is very kind and loving and lovable and giving. That's why I posted it to you.

I can't recall you even mentioning it...did I miss that post? I could have.

I know you seemed to defend the position of being unhappy, as if it's a right you have.

Yes, JP, you have the "Right" to be miserable. No one can MAKE you happy.

But I fear You missed the whole point.

You have had intermittent long term depression, correct? So there are some negative thought patterns. There is also an apparent inability to shut off certain inappropriately intrusive thoughts, when you were with your w.

So clearly, learning cognitive behavior control is a great idea for you. And whatever else is available to help you with.

I mean, is there really a choice here? You are already very sad.

NOT fixing the negative behaviors and thought patterns and treating the depression, is simply Not a legitimate choice. It's crucial you get all the help you need and assume all the responsibility for it.

You must do it, or forever surrender to the dark... I know you don't intend to hurt your wife - but you have. A lot of it is wrapped up in this negative thought pattern...and how you "feel"- As if you have no power or control at all...but I truly believe that surrender is a choice. And that learned helplessness is harmful.


If you really had no control over how you feel, then I'd worry that you'd give in to ANY emotion you ever felt..b/c why not?

Hey, you FEEL bad, so you MUST act in accordance with it...right? So, for instance, murderous rage, suicidal depression, reckless abandon...see my point?

Something in you STOPS you from going there, correct? You are not powerless and that is empowering news.

So you already possess some abilities to cope. Now you have to seriously expand them.

JP, FEEL THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE CHOICES YOU HAVE.


After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

"after today on here"?

No, before today you felt badly, and now again today. THis is "normal" for ou.
OR

Are you trying to guilt us b/c we told you the truth?

I don't want to hurt you. But you hurt other people and then feel sorry for yourself so if you want your life to change, we'll help YOU CHANGE it...

You need to see how you choose this path. And then get off it.

Your wife said some amazing things to you. How many h's around here crave hearing such CLARITY from their wives?

She clearly expressed UNmet needs of hers from the past. She was not complaining though it was obviously deeply painful and intimate.

But she bravely went out on a limb and took the chance you'd hurt her or blame her for your rejection. She asked you why you treated her so badly (not in those words) and though you did not openly blame her, it was the kind of answer that does, in effect, make her feel like crap.

This wasn't a one time momentary event. It was an "explanation" for long term physical, emotional and verbal neglect.
JP, a man who won't even SAY he loves his wife, or kiss her or touch her, and then tells her that he thinks of his mother when he's being intimate with her, appears cruel to me. I do not know you well enough to know if you meant to be cruel, I doubt it. But, so what?

If you're ever in a position to avoid hurting a loved one like that, and you are not under oath, and no useful purpose is served by brutal honesty (if that is even true, b/c you were so vague I'm not sure there was truth other than the mother comment) THEN my advice is to say it's that you felt unworthy or unsexy or unable or angry and withholding, but something that's about YOU,

AND that you are working on it, but the rest was, just so not needed...

I don't know you nearly well enough to say it was actually cruel, but JP, like some others said, I shook my head & cringed through out the post.

OTOH I applaud you for putting it out here in its' entirety.

You should not hide your comments, b/c you have to be ready to identify wildly inappropriate responses in order to repair them. We can help with that, obviously.

You now know that Your responses to your w were not loving or appropriate.

AND God bless her for her unrelenting patience!! (in that conversation at least.)

So she didn't cry about this to you? Man, my heart aches for her. She's a woman of substance. So you know,

If my h hesitated to touch me for any reason, even one of MY making, I would not simply "feel" rejected, JP. I'd actually be rejected! That is what rejection is.

You knew a need of hers, but chose not to meet those needs. Her needs did not outweigh your discomfort, or how you felt at the moment, or anger or whatever....so you chose not to meet her needs. I mean, all I can say is Ouch...ouch for her AND ouch for you.

So you know, I think I need to lose 15 lbs though no one has told me that. Over the years, it's harder to lose it, and I have an old injury that is now really bothering me, so I need a new exercise program, but I am determined.
HOWEVER,

If my h said a single negative thing about my weight, it would hurt me AND it would make me feel NOT sexy, and Not feeling sexy means not feeling in the mood...and

that's^^ how almost every woman I know reacts, btw.

So I don't know how your interactions made your wife feel...

Since we're being all honest, Why didn't you kiss her or tell her you loved her? I didn't get your answer.

Think JP, What stopped you from saying words she craved hearing? Were you angry? On the surface it would seem to be hostile.

I mean, Your mouth works. But You could not say the words? Why not? B/C You didn't "feel like it"?

No offense, but, so what if you didn't feel like it?

A lot of us, including ME, have done this "I have to FEEL IT BEFORE I CAN DO IT" attitude and it harms us. We get busy with life and work and kids and financial pressures and social activities...

But hey, First off, it's unloving to withhold affection or words of love, until you "feel like it". But secondly, here's a tip.

**Being loving even when you do not "feel" like it tends to create and generate and elongate those feelings. So The "fake it til you make it'

MEANS that to an extent, you can create this. You ACT the way that is needed, including being courteous and complimentary. One useful tactic our good marriage counselor gave us (as opposed to the worthless ones we saw)

suggested for six weeks, we go out of our way to be polite, courteous and make sure to compliment our spouse at least once a day.

It made us laugh at first, and irksome at times b/c I did NOT FEEL LIKE IT at times...but I stuck with it. The MC was smart.

B/C we were both "faking it" but it did lead to genuinely warmer feelings and that lead to other good things...

Do you understand what I'm telling you ^^here?


JP, there is a very indulgent aspect to this self pity habit.

And that's what you are doing right now. Please, don't.


It's like you gave yourself a carte blanche that says if you "feel bad or hurt", you get to be cruel to someone. Like "oops, I felt bad..."

But Then when you see the direct results of your behavior, instead of owning it (which means stopping the behavior and repairing at least some of the damage)

you seem to withdraw, and feel sorry for Yourself and not bother trying to undo the damage or change the behavior, as if you are saying, "What's the use?"

Look at your whole reaction to the therapist. I think you already set yourself up for failure with him. He's the "Not great, but not bad" guy you met exactly once.

In that hour or two, I assume the time consisted mostly of you telling him your story and providing your history. IOW, you did most of the talking, which is normal. But what did you expect From him in that meeting? Did you truly expect something useful and insightful from him in that first, one meeting?
he does not know how you take feedback but from what I can see here, you want kid gloves.

IMHO, that's unrealistic, JP. And I think it's unfair.

I worry you will blame him for you not getting better or changing, b/c YOU FELT "the push off" and have chosen learned helplessness, even when it harms people you say you care about.


If you have a chemical imbalance, find the right anti depressant to help with it, along with cognitive behavioral therapy, and whatever other modalities are available for you. I'm no shrink, but I know there is help out there.

Overcoming your inertia is going to be your biggest hurdle, I believe.

But once you do that and actually JUMP IN with both feet to fix yourself,

you'll be a lot happier. You have to do whatever the heck it takes, to man up and snap out of this.


In some ways it's simple.
You must UNLEARN hopelessness and treat the depression better, and that includes cognitive choices on your end.

I know from experience you can have some pretty traumatic events happen, see some crazy things or have them happen to you, things NOT of your making, and heal and be happy. Aside from a boatload of "bad stuff" from my childhood, I had some pretty unusual, stressful events happen in my work and then in the first Gulf War. Those memories rarely bother me now.

Read the post I wrote about Carol again please, JP.

Look, I don't want to be harsh with you. I don't like that at all.

Yet I sense very deeply, that further coddling is not what you need.

You have allowed yourself to "feel bad" to such an extreme that this allowed you to hurt others, people who cared for you, all b/c YOU felt bad.

Not cool. Not fair and NOT loving.

So, how can we help you not wallow or hurt others, but without being too brutally honest?

I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

I feel I babble and spin and

No, not too much to me. But so you know, we all do that at times. All of us.

like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

Your choice JP. Seriously.


I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.


I understand that feeling of regret about "over disclosure". But without full disclosure on a place like this, there's just no way to help. And you're here for help. You are not at your church or workplace standing up and disclosing this. That would be inappropriate. Here, it's safe.

Getting warm and fuzzy feelings is not always going to happen when we post here.

If a guy loses his temper and hits his w, he won't get praise but that's how it is. We'll help someone who needs to make a serious apology and major amends, but he'll get no applause.

A woman here recently told me she felt proud for not using the GPS that she had placed on her h's car, AS MUCH, and not snooping on her h's DB site where he posts his private anonymous thoughts about their m, AS MUCH, and some other things that I literally had never thought of doing. I Would not know how...

so I told her, "great" about not doing it as much, "but fyi, I've never done or known someone who has done those things."

I am sure she was a tad embarrassed, but my intent was to give her a frame of reference so she'd know that it's inappropriate and out of the norm, or bell curve, for her to behave this way. When accurate, I think this is valuable info and hey, this site is anonymous (except for her h I guess).

Make sense?



I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

Later.

The truth can hurt.

But without the truth, how will you heal, or recover, or love well?