Pushing Forward 2

[jp787]

OK

[jp787]

Mach1

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

The T was OK and it went OK. Not great, not bad.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel push off.

After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

I feel I babble and spin and like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.

I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

Later.

[PatientMan]

You are self sabotaging so you can fail, convince yourself you aren't good enough, and then quit.

STOP DOING THAT! Make a conscious effort to DECIDE to stop doing that.

You CAN do it! See you on the flip side.

-PM

[uRworthy]

J, first of all, ((((hugs))).

I want to tell you a few things, sweetie. You are an amazing man. You have been brutally honest and I cannot tell you how much I admire you for it. Please do not let today derail you and set you back. You have come so far and your willingness to dig so deep into such hurtful things from your past has started you on a path of healing. Please dont stop.

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

I am sure that was so very difficult for you. But, I am so proud of you that you did it.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel pushed off.

J, I have to say, that is the mark of a good doctor. You should not feel badly about it. He wants to get you the best help he can.

After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

I am so sorry you are feeling that way. I know that no one on here would ever want to make you feel that way intentionally.

I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

Take the time you need, but, I do hope you will come back. I believe in you.

I feel I babble and spin and like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

Look, we all babbled and spun. J. I went round and round for a long time before I got it. You will get it, when you get it. There is no timeline. It happens when it should. I read what you post to others, J, and it is good stuff.

I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.

Do not feel that way, J. You were being honest.

I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

You know that is your choice. I truly hope you dont quit, J, because I think you can experience some lifechanging things on your journey.

As far as the conversation with your wife, I understand why she feels the way she does. And I understand her wanting answers. The thing of it is, that you still are not in a position to give her any.

And so, these kinds of conversations right now are hurtful to the both of you. Hurtful to her because you dont have answers to her questions, hurtful to you because you feel quilty.

I think it's best if, when she broaches these subjects again, that you tell her you are not ready to talk about it now. That you are working through some things and it is best for both of you that you wait on these conversations.

J, I know that you feel badly about the hurt you have caused your wife. I do. But the very best thing you can do for her right now is to take care of you. Figure yourself out, get healthy and strong. YOu cant do that if you are still having these kinds of talks with her.

When I read them, I see that you are both so co-dependent on each other and that is not good. Neither one of you are in a position to be in a relationship right now.

You need to wait until you're ready to come from a place of strength.

I wouldnt worry so much about dbing right now. You need to really figure out your stuff, J, if you want to have a healthy life. And you want to honor her by allowing her to figure out hers in order for her to heal.

Please do not feel embarrassed or worthless, J. What you did today took courage.

J, only you have the power to change all this. Your choice always.

[25yearsmlc]

I apologize for the length of this JP but if you worry that you babble, which I don't get from you, at least your concern can be allayed b/c now you know I can write a Novel here...

Mach1

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

You need to disclose everything or you'll get nowhere. I have never understood people who hide things from their therapists...it is self defeating, almost as if they want to pretend they "tried to get help BUT it didn't work"...

And if your first T, or your 20th therapist does not help you enough, keep searching. But do the work they give you. I sensed so many conditions precedent from you when you were preparing for a therapist, that I could not tell if you were sabatoging it ahead of time. Like you wanted to check it off the list of "trying to get help", but it's not like that.

There is no painless way through this so YES it'll be hard. But you must do this work and get through this.

Why? B/C a man cannot THINK of his mom when he's being intimate with his wife and NOT get help. Don't feel shame. Feel relief that you are working on this.

This particular issue simply has nothing to do with your wife. It's a thing YOU must handle. But note JP, that a problem being handled, is not going to be a problem anynore.

It does not make you a monster; it makes you a person who needs to navigate his way out of some crap from childhood that still affects his adult life.

And you're 44 y/o, so you don't get to blame the "tough childhood" for your present day choices. You just don't.

You acknowledge them and you repair them.

This is a solution based forum and I LOVE that. It means we don't wallow in our repressed memories or the abuse we suffered. IF it is true, We identify it and we process it and we move on. (And yes, I speak from experience with this so I've been there, done that. Better late than never.) We find solutions that work and those are the ones we do.

I attended the Essential Experience workshop again in February (I believe I've shared that with you but check out their website. It's the fastest most efficient way to shift your paradigm and you need that, imo)....

Anyhow, a 43 y/o man there said that he'd like to someday have a successful sexual experience...even just once. B/C he never has...

His problem is not physical, but one that results from terrible abuse suffered as a child. He's still working on it. He found the right combination of resources and, he did the work. And he's better.

So Don't use your childhood or your present day problems as a reason to keep love away from you. You may be hurt but pushing your wife away like that, for so long, hurt you both a hell of a lot too.

I don't see any choice but for you to work this out asap. Truly.



The T was OK and it went OK. Not great, not bad.

It's extremely premature to decide how good or great or "not bad" your therapist is. Don't set them, or yourself up, for failure by having unrealistic expectations.

Most therpaists don't show their cards, so please don't assume that he or she not hugging you or "Looking sympathetic" means a thing. I think the hugging or the sympathy you were seeking is premature AND it is irrelevant IF their words and insights help you. They're not there to be your friend so much as to be a guide to your self healing.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel push off.


Sorry JP but that^ reaction is just not fair or appropriate.

You said he'd see you again, so there is NO rejection from him there. Period.

He said you need a specialist, which makes sense, AND which you claim to understand...(well, do you understand or not? Are you lying about believing you need a specialist?)

You say it's logical AND he'll see you again, but yet you "feel push off"? That is on you.

You also did not sound too fond of him so maybe you projected the "No one can help ME, b/c my problems are so unique and so impossible... I may as well give up now...but I TRIED..."

I don't know why you are choosing to feel this way. Please don't tell us your emotions are beyond your control.
First off, where the head goes, the heart will follow. So you need to start thinking straight. So You'll literally FEEL better when you think better.

That "push off" feeling is coming from you, not him.

Stop the stinking thinking.

It's a negative tape you have in your head. You, and ONLY YOU, have to stop and reset that tape, AND the wonderful news is that It IS possible. I've seen it.

I posted a long, time consuming post to you. I included my story of Carol, who has faced more loss than anyone I know.

She still has a great life, with love, laughter and a wonderfully positive attitude towards her world, & those in it. She is very kind and loving and lovable and giving. That's why I posted it to you.

I can't recall you even mentioning it...did I miss that post? I could have.

I know you seemed to defend the position of being unhappy, as if it's a right you have.

Yes, JP, you have the "Right" to be miserable. No one can MAKE you happy.

But I fear You missed the whole point.

You have had intermittent long term depression, correct? So there are some negative thought patterns. There is also an apparent inability to shut off certain inappropriately intrusive thoughts, when you were with your w.

So clearly, learning cognitive behavior control is a great idea for you. And whatever else is available to help you with.

I mean, is there really a choice here? You are already very sad.

NOT fixing the negative behaviors and thought patterns and treating the depression, is simply Not a legitimate choice. It's crucial you get all the help you need and assume all the responsibility for it.

You must do it, or forever surrender to the dark... I know you don't intend to hurt your wife - but you have. A lot of it is wrapped up in this negative thought pattern...and how you "feel"- As if you have no power or control at all...but I truly believe that surrender is a choice. And that learned helplessness is harmful.


If you really had no control over how you feel, then I'd worry that you'd give in to ANY emotion you ever felt..b/c why not?

Hey, you FEEL bad, so you MUST act in accordance with it...right? So, for instance, murderous rage, suicidal depression, reckless abandon...see my point?

Something in you STOPS you from going there, correct? You are not powerless and that is empowering news.

So you already possess some abilities to cope. Now you have to seriously expand them.

JP, FEEL THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE CHOICES YOU HAVE.


After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

"after today on here"?

No, before today you felt badly, and now again today. THis is "normal" for ou.
OR

Are you trying to guilt us b/c we told you the truth?

I don't want to hurt you. But you hurt other people and then feel sorry for yourself so if you want your life to change, we'll help YOU CHANGE it...

You need to see how you choose this path. And then get off it.

Your wife said some amazing things to you. How many h's around here crave hearing such CLARITY from their wives?

She clearly expressed UNmet needs of hers from the past. She was not complaining though it was obviously deeply painful and intimate.

But she bravely went out on a limb and took the chance you'd hurt her or blame her for your rejection. She asked you why you treated her so badly (not in those words) and though you did not openly blame her, it was the kind of answer that does, in effect, make her feel like crap.

This wasn't a one time momentary event. It was an "explanation" for long term physical, emotional and verbal neglect.
JP, a man who won't even SAY he loves his wife, or kiss her or touch her, and then tells her that he thinks of his mother when he's being intimate with her, appears cruel to me. I do not know you well enough to know if you meant to be cruel, I doubt it. But, so what?

If you're ever in a position to avoid hurting a loved one like that, and you are not under oath, and no useful purpose is served by brutal honesty (if that is even true, b/c you were so vague I'm not sure there was truth other than the mother comment) THEN my advice is to say it's that you felt unworthy or unsexy or unable or angry and withholding, but something that's about YOU,

AND that you are working on it, but the rest was, just so not needed...

I don't know you nearly well enough to say it was actually cruel, but JP, like some others said, I shook my head & cringed through out the post.

OTOH I applaud you for putting it out here in its' entirety.

You should not hide your comments, b/c you have to be ready to identify wildly inappropriate responses in order to repair them. We can help with that, obviously.

You now know that Your responses to your w were not loving or appropriate.

AND God bless her for her unrelenting patience!! (in that conversation at least.)

So she didn't cry about this to you? Man, my heart aches for her. She's a woman of substance. So you know,

If my h hesitated to touch me for any reason, even one of MY making, I would not simply "feel" rejected, JP. I'd actually be rejected! That is what rejection is.

You knew a need of hers, but chose not to meet those needs. Her needs did not outweigh your discomfort, or how you felt at the moment, or anger or whatever....so you chose not to meet her needs. I mean, all I can say is Ouch...ouch for her AND ouch for you.

So you know, I think I need to lose 15 lbs though no one has told me that. Over the years, it's harder to lose it, and I have an old injury that is now really bothering me, so I need a new exercise program, but I am determined.
HOWEVER,

If my h said a single negative thing about my weight, it would hurt me AND it would make me feel NOT sexy, and Not feeling sexy means not feeling in the mood...and

that's^^ how almost every woman I know reacts, btw.

So I don't know how your interactions made your wife feel...

Since we're being all honest, Why didn't you kiss her or tell her you loved her? I didn't get your answer.

Think JP, What stopped you from saying words she craved hearing? Were you angry? On the surface it would seem to be hostile.

I mean, Your mouth works. But You could not say the words? Why not? B/C You didn't "feel like it"?

No offense, but, so what if you didn't feel like it?

A lot of us, including ME, have done this "I have to FEEL IT BEFORE I CAN DO IT" attitude and it harms us. We get busy with life and work and kids and financial pressures and social activities...

But hey, First off, it's unloving to withhold affection or words of love, until you "feel like it". But secondly, here's a tip.

**Being loving even when you do not "feel" like it tends to create and generate and elongate those feelings. So The "fake it til you make it'

MEANS that to an extent, you can create this. You ACT the way that is needed, including being courteous and complimentary. One useful tactic our good marriage counselor gave us (as opposed to the worthless ones we saw)

suggested for six weeks, we go out of our way to be polite, courteous and make sure to compliment our spouse at least once a day.

It made us laugh at first, and irksome at times b/c I did NOT FEEL LIKE IT at times...but I stuck with it. The MC was smart.

B/C we were both "faking it" but it did lead to genuinely warmer feelings and that lead to other good things...

Do you understand what I'm telling you ^^here?


JP, there is a very indulgent aspect to this self pity habit.

And that's what you are doing right now. Please, don't.


It's like you gave yourself a carte blanche that says if you "feel bad or hurt", you get to be cruel to someone. Like "oops, I felt bad..."

But Then when you see the direct results of your behavior, instead of owning it (which means stopping the behavior and repairing at least some of the damage)

you seem to withdraw, and feel sorry for Yourself and not bother trying to undo the damage or change the behavior, as if you are saying, "What's the use?"

Look at your whole reaction to the therapist. I think you already set yourself up for failure with him. He's the "Not great, but not bad" guy you met exactly once.

In that hour or two, I assume the time consisted mostly of you telling him your story and providing your history. IOW, you did most of the talking, which is normal. But what did you expect From him in that meeting? Did you truly expect something useful and insightful from him in that first, one meeting?
he does not know how you take feedback but from what I can see here, you want kid gloves.

IMHO, that's unrealistic, JP. And I think it's unfair.

I worry you will blame him for you not getting better or changing, b/c YOU FELT "the push off" and have chosen learned helplessness, even when it harms people you say you care about.


If you have a chemical imbalance, find the right anti depressant to help with it, along with cognitive behavioral therapy, and whatever other modalities are available for you. I'm no shrink, but I know there is help out there.

Overcoming your inertia is going to be your biggest hurdle, I believe.

But once you do that and actually JUMP IN with both feet to fix yourself,

you'll be a lot happier. You have to do whatever the heck it takes, to man up and snap out of this.


In some ways it's simple.
You must UNLEARN hopelessness and treat the depression better, and that includes cognitive choices on your end.

I know from experience you can have some pretty traumatic events happen, see some crazy things or have them happen to you, things NOT of your making, and heal and be happy. Aside from a boatload of "bad stuff" from my childhood, I had some pretty unusual, stressful events happen in my work and then in the first Gulf War. Those memories rarely bother me now.

Read the post I wrote about Carol again please, JP.

Look, I don't want to be harsh with you. I don't like that at all.

Yet I sense very deeply, that further coddling is not what you need.

You have allowed yourself to "feel bad" to such an extreme that this allowed you to hurt others, people who cared for you, all b/c YOU felt bad.

Not cool. Not fair and NOT loving.

So, how can we help you not wallow or hurt others, but without being too brutally honest?

I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

I feel I babble and spin and

No, not too much to me. But so you know, we all do that at times. All of us.

like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

Your choice JP. Seriously.


I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.


I understand that feeling of regret about "over disclosure". But without full disclosure on a place like this, there's just no way to help. And you're here for help. You are not at your church or workplace standing up and disclosing this. That would be inappropriate. Here, it's safe.

Getting warm and fuzzy feelings is not always going to happen when we post here.

If a guy loses his temper and hits his w, he won't get praise but that's how it is. We'll help someone who needs to make a serious apology and major amends, but he'll get no applause.

A woman here recently told me she felt proud for not using the GPS that she had placed on her h's car, AS MUCH, and not snooping on her h's DB site where he posts his private anonymous thoughts about their m, AS MUCH, and some other things that I literally had never thought of doing. I Would not know how...

so I told her, "great" about not doing it as much, "but fyi, I've never done or known someone who has done those things."

I am sure she was a tad embarrassed, but my intent was to give her a frame of reference so she'd know that it's inappropriate and out of the norm, or bell curve, for her to behave this way. When accurate, I think this is valuable info and hey, this site is anonymous (except for her h I guess).

Make sense?



I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

Later.

The truth can hurt.

But without the truth, how will you heal, or recover, or love well?

[jp787]

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

You need to disclose everything or you'll get nowhere. I have never understood people who hide things from their therapists...it is self defeating, almost as if they want to pretend they "tried to get help BUT it didn't work"...

And if your first T, or your 20th therapist does not help you enough, keep searching. But do the work they give you. I sensed so many conditions precedent from you when you were preparing for a therapist, that I could not tell if you were sabotaging it ahead of time. Like you wanted to check it off the list of "trying to get help", but it's not like that.


I see him once a week and have seen him for close to two months now?
You may be right about setting up conditions. I feel it is fear of disclosing everything. I have had past T who I have gone to for several sessions and decide if click with them before I open up 100%. Maybe this is right, maybe not, yet it is what I do. I like and trust this T and I think that is why it was so hard to open up, I felt like I was risking loosing someone I like. I felt fear of saying what needed to be said and having someone change how they see me in a negative way. I was in a 30 day inpatient treatment program almost 25 years ago. It was a stress unit, which was somewhat new. At the time it was that or alcohol/drug treatment. Anyways, I made friends there and had never opened up about my real problem. One woman, school teacher in her late 30’s was there dealing with a divorce (seems 90% of the people there were dealing with the stress from a pending divorce). She befriended me, we talked and talked. She told me all about her and we grew close. As time went by she kept at me to open up to her, to trust her. That nothing was that bad and she was safe. I decided to open up to her and did. The look on her face, her eyes say it all, but then she spoke. Her voice shaking, she said she took it back and didn’t want to know, she wished I had not told her and that that it was wrong and that she couldn’t be my friend anymore. I was crushed. After time I talked myself into trusting others, as keeping it to myself was not good. There were some that looked past the issue and saw me, but some who reinforced what I feared. Anyways… I do know I have to just keep looking for those who will take me for me, yet it is hard to look past the rejection I have etched in my mind.



There is no painless way through this so YES it'll be hard. But you must do this work and get through this.

Why? B/C a man cannot THINK of his mom when he's being intimate with his wife and NOT get help. Don't feel shame. Feel relief that you are working on this.

This particular issue simply has nothing to do with your wife. It's a thing YOU must handle. But note JP, that a problem being handled, is not going to be a problem anynore.

It does not make you a monster; it makes you a person who needs to navigate his way out of some crap from childhood that still affects his adult life.

IDK about the whole mother thing, wish it never popped into my head and more so that I never let it out of my mouth.
I don’t think of my mother while with my wife. Before BD my W tried so hard to get me to give her touch, to want her. I tried and did do it, fake it, yet she knew I wasn’t into it.
It came to a head with touching her in one area and I couldn’t. She wanted to know why and why and why. I gave it thought, I didn’t really know other than it repulsed me at the time. So my brain though, your mother repulses you, you cringe she tries to hug, touch you (non-sexual), it feels the same, the feeling of backing away, cringing at the thought of it. So… I said maybe this is why and said it. I am sure it was not said well and regardless once said the words didn’t matter as the idea was there and it went loose in her mind.
I had therapy yesterday and by chance an answer came to be that made sense. That I had become so entrenched into my addiction or it to me that I could not do both. I could not give my W anything she needed emotionally or it put my addiction at risk. That it was one or the other. I came to this as I looked at then and now. Then I was 100% into my porn, spending any time I could find on the computer, not barely acknowledging my W. Now I don’t have .001% of an urge to look or be on a computer at home, but 100% to be with my W. To kiss, to be intimate, to do everything. As she allows, we have been and it has been great, more than it ever has been. I have no cringing, no fears, etc. So what I see is that it is there, it is possible, it is in me. Kinda like living a dual life, but not. Only one can exists. I want the one I feel now. I know that my wakeup call caused me to go into a flight, survival “mode” I know that where I am at is not a “fix”. I know that if my W magically cam e back that I would more than likely slide right back into the past behaviors. I know I need to fix me before I can be in a relationship, I know… Then my emotions come and try to tell me, but…

And you're 44 y/o, so you don't get to blame the "tough childhood" for your present day choices. You just don't.

You acknowledge them and you repair them.

I do know this, even though I don’t act like it. I am in the poor me because it is what I know and it if where I feel comfortable, more later in repy.

This is a solution based forum and I LOVE that. It means we don't wallow in our repressed memories or the abuse we suffered. IF it is true, We identify it and we process it and we move on. (And yes, I speak from experience with this so I've been there, done that. Better late than never.) We find solutions that work and those are the ones we do.

I attended the Essential Experience workshop again in February (I believe I've shared that with you but check out their website. It's the fastest most efficient way to shift your paradigm and you need that, imo)....

I have looked, many time and come up frustrated each time. Right now there is no money, not an excuse. Cost is $695.00, flight would be $400. And I could stay with people from EE. I do not have the money, nor a cc or a way to get one. I have made this a goal, just will have to be later…

Anyhow, a 43 y/o man there said that he'd like to someday have a successful sexual experience...even just once. B/C he never has...

His problem is not physical, but one that results from terrible abuse suffered as a child. He's still working on it. He found the right combination of resources and, he did the work. And he's better.

So Don't use your childhood or your present day problems as a reason to keep love away from you. You may be hurt but pushing your wife away like that, for so long, hurt you both a hell of a lot too.

I don't see any choice but for you to work this out asap. Truly.

[/color]

The T was OK and it went OK. Not great, not bad.

It's extremely premature to decide how good or great or "not bad" your therapist is. Don't set them, or yourself up, for failure by having unrealistic expectations.

Most therpaists don't show their cards, so please don't assume that he or she not hugging you or "Looking sympathetic" means a thing. I think the hugging or the sympathy you were seeking is premature AND it is irrelevant IF their words and insights help you. They're not there to be your friend so much as to be a guide to your self healing.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel push off.


Sorry JP but that^ reaction is just not fair or appropriate.

You said he'd see you again, so there is NO rejection from him there. Period.

[color:#009900]I feel pushed off, yes I know it is me.

He said you need a specialist, which makes sense, AND which you claim to understand...(well, do you understand or not? Are you lying about believing you need a specialist?)

No I don’t think so. I went to California to see a group of specialist for about a month, all out of network and dropped about 20k there between their rates and group meeting, etc. It helped, gave me tools, yet I know I need to find someone to see for years. I plan on continuing with current T.

You say it's logical AND he'll see you again, but yet you "feel push off"? That is on you.

You also did not sound too fond of him so maybe you projected the "No one can help ME, b/c my problems are so unique and so impossible... I may as well give up now...but I TRIED..."

I don't know why you are choosing to feel this way. Please don't tell us your emotions are beyond your control.
First off, where the head goes, the heart will follow. So you need to start thinking straight. So You'll literally FEEL better when you think better.

That "push off" feeling is coming from you, not him.

Stop the stinking thinking.

It's a negative tape you have in your head. You, and ONLY YOU, have to stop and reset that tape, AND the wonderful news is that It IS possible. I've seen it.

I posted a long, time consuming post to you. I included my story of Carol, who has faced more loss than anyone I know.

She still has a great life, with love, laughter and a wonderfully positive attitude towards her world, & those in it. She is very kind and loving and lovable and giving. That's why I posted it to you.

I can't recall you even mentioning it...did I miss that post? I could have.

I read it on another thread, than again on mine. I do thank you. I do see that is what I want. I know that kind of thinking is a choice. I know I am not even close to that.

I know you seemed to defend the position of being unhappy, as if it's a right you have.

Yes, JP, you have the "Right" to be miserable. No one can MAKE you happy.

But I fear You missed the whole point.

You have had intermittent long term depression, correct? So there are some negative thought patterns. There is also an apparent inability to shut off certain inappropriately intrusive thoughts, when you were with your w.

So clearly, learning cognitive behavior control is a great idea for you. And whatever else is available to help you with.

I mean, is there really a choice here? You are already very sad.

NOT fixing the negative behaviors and thought patterns and treating the depression, is simply Not a legitimate choice. It's crucial you get all the help you need and assume all the responsibility for it.

You must do it, or forever surrender to the dark... I know you don't intend to hurt your wife - but you have. A lot of it is wrapped up in this negative thought pattern...and how you "feel"- As if you have no power or control at all...but I truly believe that surrender is a choice. And that learned helplessness is harmful.


If you really had no control over how you feel, then I'd worry that you'd give in to ANY emotion you ever felt..b/c why not?

Hey, you FEEL bad, so you MUST act in accordance with it...right? So, for instance, murderous rage, suicidal depression, reckless abandon...see my point?

Something in you STOPS you from going there, correct? You are not powerless and that is empowering news.

I have amazing restraint with some things at some times and then I give in with others at other times. Something I need to really figure out. I do think I place controls at the very ends or limits as to allow myself to not work until I absolutely have to.

So you already possess some abilities to cope. Now you have to seriously expand them.

JP, FEEL THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE CHOICES YOU HAVE.

[/color]
After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

"after today on here"?

No, before today you felt badly, and now again today. THis is "normal" for ou.
OR

Are you trying to guilt us b/c we told you the truth?

You bet, that is what I do. You hurt me? Well by god I will show you! I will curl up and play the poor JP, and teach you not to do that again! Ugh… Yes that is me…

I don't want to hurt you. But you hurt other people and then feel sorry for yourself so if you want your life to change, we'll help YOU CHANGE it...

You need to see how you choose this path. And then get off it.

Your wife said some amazing things to you. How many h's around here crave hearing such CLARITY from their wives?

She clearly expressed UNmet needs of hers from the past. She was not complaining though it was obviously deeply painful and intimate.

But she bravely went out on a limb and took the chance you'd hurt her or blame her for your rejection. She asked you why you treated her so badly (not in those words) and though you did not openly blame her, it was the kind of answer that does, in effect, make her feel like crap.

This wasn't a one time momentary event. It was an "explanation" for long term physical, emotional and verbal neglect.
JP, a man who won't even SAY he loves his wife, or kiss her or touch her, and then tells her that he thinks of his mother when he's being intimate with her, appears cruel to me. I do not know you well enough to know if you meant to be cruel, I doubt it. But, so what?

If you're ever in a position to avoid hurting a loved one like that, and you are not under oath, and no useful purpose is served by brutal honesty (if that is even true, b/c you were so vague I'm not sure there was truth other than the mother comment) THEN my advice is to say it's that you felt unworthy or unsexy or unable or angry and withholding, but something that's about YOU,

AND that you are working on it, but the rest was, just so not needed...

I don't know you nearly well enough to say it was actually cruel, but JP, like some others said, I shook my head & cringed through out the post.

Yes that is part of what hurt me and threw me. I see some of it, yet don’t see what you all see and that is very scary and concerning for me. When the truth is told I go straight to shutting down, if I don’t like that truth, that is. As much as I don’t want to see it, I almost feel I need a more clear breakdown of that conversation telling me what it really says. And AS I do appreciate your honesty

OTOH I applaud you for putting it out here in its' entirety.

You should not hide your comments, b/c you have to be ready to identify wildly inappropriate responses in order to repair them. We can help with that, obviously.

You now know that Your responses to your w were not loving or appropriate.

AND God bless her for her unrelenting patience!! (in that conversation at least.)

I honestly feel I don’t deserve my W. she is the most amazing person I know, she is who would like to be like, she in my eyes is all good and I am the one who took advantage of that and tore her down, stepped on her and made her my personal ??whatever I needed at the time. I have tremendous guilt.

So she didn't cry about this to you? Man, my heart aches for her. She's a woman of substance. So you know,
Yes she cried many times.


If my h hesitated to touch me for any reason, even one of MY making, I would not simply "feel" rejected, JP. I'd actually be rejected! That is what rejection is.

You knew a need of hers, but chose not to meet those needs. Her needs did not outweigh your discomfort, or how you felt at the moment, or anger or whatever....so you chose not to meet her needs. I mean, all I can say is Ouch...ouch for her AND ouch for you.

It was the same when she wanted to talk. I felt like I became paralyzed. I went numb, just sitting there going make it end, make it end until it was over.

So you know, I think I need to lose 15 lbs though no one has told me that. Over the years, it's harder to lose it, and I have an old injury that is now really bothering me, so I need a new exercise program, but I am determined.
HOWEVER,

If my h said a single negative thing about my weight, it would hurt me AND it would make me feel NOT sexy, and Not feeling sexy means not feeling in the mood...and

that's^^ how almost every woman I know reacts, btw.

So I don't know how your interactions made your wife feel...
I would guess horrible, but comforting as we are so co-dependent.

Since we're being all honest, Why didn't you kiss her or tell her you loved her? I didn't get your answer.
Other than what I said about being either or with her or addiction, I honestly do not know. I remember not wanting to, not having interest and assume that was because my mind was with my porn. When she tried to get me to or asked about it, I locked up, I felt paralyzed. I need to work on finding out why.
Think JP, What stopped you from saying words she craved hearing? Were you angry? On the surface it would seem to be hostile.
Again, nothing in my conscious mind pops up.

I mean, Your mouth works. But You could not say the words? Why not? B/C You didn't "feel like it"?
This is where I came up with some kind of fear, I mean I literally could not say it, feeling paralyzed. That is true and honest. There must be meaning, yet right now it isn’t clear or even muddy

No offense, but, so what if you didn't feel like it?

A lot of us, including ME, have done this "I have to FEEL IT BEFORE I CAN DO IT" attitude and it harms us. We get busy with life and work and kids and financial pressures and social activities...

But hey, First off, it's unloving to withhold affection or words of love, until you "feel like it". But secondly, here's a tip.

**Being loving even when you do not "feel" like it tends to create and generate and elongate those feelings. So The "fake it til you make it'

MEANS that to an extent, you can create this. You ACT the way that is needed, including being courteous and complimentary. One useful tactic our good marriage counselor gave us (as opposed to the worthless ones we saw)

suggested for six weeks, we go out of our way to be polite, courteous and make sure to compliment our spouse at least once a day.

It made us laugh at first, and irksome at times b/c I did NOT FEEL LIKE IT at times...but I stuck with it. The MC was smart.

B/C we were both "faking it" but it did lead to genuinely warmer feelings and that lead to other good things...

Do you understand what I'm telling you ^^here?
I do and right now I can see it and can do it. To be honest, if you had said this before when I was not giving anything, I wouldn’t see it, I wouldn’t care… It wasn’t something that involved my addiction, so it wasn’t important.
I remember getting so mad when my W would interrupt me when I was on the computer, that I didn’t even care what she wanted, she was interrupting me…


JP, there is a very indulgent aspect to this self pity habit.
Would you believe that I am a very, very selfish person? Big goal to change that.


And that's what you are doing right now. Please, don't.


It's like you gave yourself a carte blanche that says if you "feel bad or hurt", you get to be cruel to someone. Like "oops, I felt bad..."
yes, I agree

But Then when you see the direct results of your behavior, instead of owning it (which means stopping the behavior and repairing at least some of the damage)

you seem to withdraw, and feel sorry for Yourself and not bother trying to undo the damage or change the behavior, as if you are saying, "What's the use?"
Exactly, yes, you got it.
Look at your whole reaction to the therapist. I think you already set yourself up for failure with him. He's the "Not great, but not bad" guy you met exactly once.

In that hour or two, I assume the time consisted mostly of you telling him your story and providing your history. IOW, you did most of the talking, which is normal. But what did you expect From him in that meeting? Did you truly expect something useful and insightful from him in that first, one meeting?
he does not know how you take feedback but from what I can see here, you want kid gloves.

IMHO, that's unrealistic, JP. And I think it's unfair.

I worry you will blame him for you not getting better or changing, b/c YOU FELT "the push off" and have chosen learned helplessness, even when it harms people you say you care about.


If you have a chemical imbalance, find the right anti depressant to help with it, along with cognitive behavioral therapy, and whatever other modalities are available for you. I'm no shrink, but I know there is help out there.

Overcoming your inertia is going to be your biggest hurdle, I believe.

But once you do that and actually JUMP IN with both feet to fix yourself,

you'll be a lot happier. You have to do whatever the heck it takes, to man up and snap out of this.


In some ways it's simple.
You must UNLEARN hopelessness and treat the depression better, and that includes cognitive choices on your end.
I think I need some cards that have choices for me to choose from and I have to choose one and have to follow it. So when I do this, I force myself to change.

I know from experience you can have some pretty traumatic events happen, see some crazy things or have them happen to you, things NOT of your making, and heal and be happy. Aside from a boatload of "bad stuff" from my childhood, I had some pretty unusual, stressful events happen in my work and then in the first Gulf War. Those memories rarely bother me now.

Read the post I wrote about Carol again please, JP.

Look, I don't want to be harsh with you. I don't like that at all.

Yet I sense very deeply, that further coddling is not what you need.
Need, no. I need a stiff kick in the a55. Then it is on me to change my reaction when that happens.

You have allowed yourself to "feel bad" to such an extreme that this allowed you to hurt others, people who cared for you, all b/c YOU felt bad.

Not cool. Not fair and NOT loving.

So, how can we help you not wallow or hurt others, but without being too brutally honest?
[/color] Maybe the brutally honesty is what I need. It will be up to me to “man up” and not go cry poor me, everyone hates me.
I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

I feel I babble and spin and

No, not too much to me. But so you know, we all do that at times. All of us.

like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

Your choice JP. Seriously.


I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.


I understand that feeling of regret about "over disclosure". But without full disclosure on a place like this, there's just no way to help. And you're here for help. You are not at your church or workplace standing up and disclosing this. That would be inappropriate. Here, it's safe.

Getting warm and fuzzy feelings is not always going to happen when we post here.

If a guy loses his temper and hits his w, he won't get praise but that's how it is. We'll help someone who needs to make a serious apology and major amends, but he'll get no applause.

A woman here recently told me she felt proud for not using the GPS that she had placed on her h's car, AS MUCH, and not snooping on her h's DB site where he posts his private anonymous thoughts about their m, AS MUCH, and some other things that I literally had never thought of doing. I Would not know how...

so I told her, "great" about not doing it as much, "but fyi, I've never done or known someone who has done those things."

I am sure she was a tad embarrassed, but my intent was to give her a frame of reference so she'd know that it's inappropriate and out of the norm, or bell curve, for her to behave this way. When accurate, I think this is valuable info and hey, this site is anonymous (except for her h I guess).

Make sense?

Yes it does. I need the hard truth. I think everyone though out my life has coddled me, made sure they didn’t hurt my feelings, protected me and so that is what I have come to expect.

I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

Later.

The truth can hurt.

But without the truth, how will you heal, or recover, or love well?

I did have a hard youth, some really bad stuff happened, not sure what all, but I know there was a lot of crap. I am 44 and it is far past time that I man up and deal with it and move forward. I am co-dependent, I am selfish, I am a master manipulator/controller, I have long lost my good qualities and it will take a huge amount of effort, change and work to find them again.

I have tried many, many times over the years to change, but I honestly think only until it got hard, then I quit.
I really do want to change, I am terrified of that. I don’t know where to start, I don’t know what all I do that is wrong, there is so much wrong that I get lost.
I think starting at self-worth and becoming kind, losing the selfishness is as good as any place to start, yet I can’t ignore everything else or can I? Focus on one thing, then something else happens and I lose that thought and think about yes I need to change this too.

I do know that I have some good. I think my fear is that I think the bad outweighs the good by a huge amount.

I do appreciate your post 25 it does help. I appreciate everyone’s, even if it hurts. That is something (one of those things that pop up outside of working on self-worth and kindness) that I need to work on.

It becomes overwhelming and I want to take a nap, it hurts and I want to crawl and hide, it is scary and I want to close my eyes.
Out of all the people I know, My W , the one I hurt the most has given me the gift of waking me up. Now it that I am awake it is up to me to make something of that gift or not…

Stepping away from being the victim, the poor JP is something that I think may need to come first. No matter what, that is where I fall to.
Thanks 25

[Positivespin]

This is your 180 my friend

If I begin to feel overwhelmed I go for a long walk- there is a point during a walk where you achieve clarity (I know im done when I start singing)

no more naps- no more running away or sticking your head in the sand

confidence comes from wins and the easiest wins are ones that YOU have control over.

JP- I love you man. You are stuck in a mindset where your only success is dependent on how your wife feels...so its a different kind of begging- a quagmire. your trying to change while trying to keep things the same- with your wife.

[jp787]

J, first of all, ((((hugs))).

I want to tell you a few things, sweetie. You are an amazing man. You have been brutally honest and I cannot tell you how much I admire you for it. Please do not let today derail you and set you back. You have come so far and your willingness to dig so deep into such hurtful things from your past has started you on a path of healing. Please dont stop.

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

I am sure that was so very difficult for you. But, I am so proud of you that you did it.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel pushed off.

J, I have to say, that is the mark of a good doctor. You should not feel badly about it. He wants to get you the best help he can.

I know. I just have this vision in my head that I will say the worst thing possible and I will look up and see bright eyes and hear well heck that is fixable, I know just what we need to do, are you ready?

After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

I am so sorry you are feeling that way. I know that no one on here would ever want to make you feel that way intentionally.

It's me, just like what 25 said if I am not coddled, If I feel uncomfortable or feel hurt, I will lash out either in anger or pull out my poor me JP cards.

I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

Take the time you need, but, I do hope you will come back. I believe in you.

I feel I babble and spin and like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

Look, we all babbled and spun. J. I went round and round for a long time before I got it. You will get it, when you get it. There is no timeline. It happens when it should. I read what you post to others, J, and it is good stuff.

I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.

Do not feel that way, J. You were being honest.

Do not feel that way?

I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

You know that is your choice. I truly hope you dont quit, J, because I think you can experience some life changing things on your journey.

As far as the conversation with your wife, I understand why she feels the way she does. And I understand her wanting answers. The thing of it is, that you still are not in a position to give her any.

And so, these kinds of conversations right now are hurtful to the both of you. Hurtful to her because you dont have answers to her questions, hurtful to you because you feel quilty.

I think it's best if, when she broaches these subjects again, that you tell her you are not ready to talk about it now. That you are working through some things and it is best for both of you that you wait on these conversations.

J, I know that you feel badly about the hurt you have caused your wife. I do. But the very best thing you can do for her right now is to take care of you. Figure yourself out, get healthy and strong. YOu cant do that if you are still having these kinds of talks with her.

When I read them, I see that you are both so co-dependent on each other and that is not good. Neither one of you are in a position to be in a relationship right now.

[color:#CC33CC]I agree and I fear at the same time.

You need to wait until you're ready to come from a place of strength.

I wouldnt worry so much about dbing right now. You need to really figure out your stuff, J, if you want to have a healthy life. And you want to honor her by allowing her to figure out hers in order for her to heal.

Please do not feel embarrassed or worthless, J. What you did today took courage.

J, only you have the power to change all this. Your choice always. [/color]

UW, I do appreciate all your advice and being there for me. I do feel that I need to make some really hard choices and make a move, put both feet in. Read what 25 said and my replies.

I need to jump in and stop testing the waters. I am starting to think that maybe my self pity, my poor me, my selfishness is where I really need to start with, even before the self worth, IDK. The second I feel hurt,sad, pain, uncomfortable I turn everything and everyone around so that it is all about me. I am very talented with control and manipulation. It is hard as I truly am feeling pain and need to take care of me, yet I need to feel the pain and not make it about me. What hard thing to do. I need the hard love, I need to grow up. That is something I have not mentioned on here and I think it has merit. I think I emotionally stopped developing in my early to mid teens, maybe earlier. I emotionally act like a child. It needs to be all about me, the world is centered around me. If I dont get what I want or feel hurt, I will let other know it by whatever means works on them. So I wonder how old I really am, emotionally...At what age does a child act that way, or the way I act?

[JuneReN]

Mach1

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

The T was OK and it went OK. Not great, not bad.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel push off.

After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

I feel I babble and spin and like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.

I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

Later.

JP, for a professional to basically admit that you need someone with more experience in a certain area, means he really cares about you and he is good enough to know that even with all his own knowledge, he needs help to help you.

That is huge, some therapists would not admit this, or even know themselves well enough to do this. You have made it all about the rejection of you when it is actually the acceptance and love of you.

Do you see this at all? Do you see that everyone here as well accepts you? Sure we call you out on your sh*t, that's what friends do.

[jp787]

I did go to therapy and I did disclose everything.

You need to disclose everything or you'll get nowhere. I have never understood people who hide things from their therapists...it is self defeating, almost as if they want to pretend they "tried to get help BUT it didn't work"...

And if your first T, or your 20th therapist does not help you enough, keep searching. But do the work they give you. I sensed so many conditions precedent from you when you were preparing for a therapist, that I could not tell if you were sabotaging it ahead of time. Like you wanted to check it off the list of "trying to get help", but it's not like that.


I see him once a week and have seen him for close to two months now?
You may be right about setting up conditions. I feel it is fear of disclosing everything. I have had past T who I have gone to for several sessions and decide if click with them before I open up 100%. Maybe this is right, maybe not, yet it is what I do. I like and trust this T and I think that is why it was so hard to open up, I felt like I was risking loosing someone I like. I felt fear of saying what needed to be said and having someone change how they see me in a negative way. I was in a 30 day inpatient treatment program almost 25 years ago. It was a stress unit, which was somewhat new. At the time it was that or alcohol/drug treatment. Anyways, I made friends there and had never opened up about my real problem. One woman, school teacher in her late 30’s was there dealing with a divorce (seems 90% of the people there were dealing with the stress from a pending divorce). She befriended me, we talked and talked. She told me all about her and we grew close. As time went by she kept at me to open up to her, to trust her. That nothing was that bad and she was safe. I decided to open up to her and did. The look on her face, her eyes say it all, but then she spoke. Her voice shaking, she said she took it back and didn’t want to know, she wished I had not told her and that that it was wrong and that she couldn’t be my friend anymore. I was crushed. After time I talked myself into trusting others, as keeping it to myself was not good. There were some that looked past the issue and saw me, but some who reinforced what I feared. Anyways… I do know I have to just keep looking for those who will take me for me, yet it is hard to look past the rejection I have etched in my mind.



There is no painless way through this so YES it'll be hard. But you must do this work and get through this.

Why? B/C a man cannot THINK of his mom when he's being intimate with his wife and NOT get help. Don't feel shame. Feel relief that you are working on this.

This particular issue simply has nothing to do with your wife. It's a thing YOU must handle. But note JP, that a problem being handled, is not going to be a problem anynore.

It does not make you a monster; it makes you a person who needs to navigate his way out of some crap from childhood that still affects his adult life.

IDK about the whole mother thing, wish it never popped into my head and more so that I never let it out of my mouth.
I don’t think of my mother while with my wife. Before BD my W tried so hard to get me to give her touch, to want her. I tried and did do it, fake it, yet she knew I wasn’t into it.
It came to a head with touching her in one area and I couldn’t. She wanted to know why and why and why. I gave it thought, I didn’t really know other than it repulsed me at the time. So my brain though, your mother repulses you, you cringe she tries to hug, touch you (non-sexual), it feels the same, the feeling of backing away, cringing at the thought of it. So… I said maybe this is why and said it. I am sure it was not said well and regardless once said the words didn’t matter as the idea was there and it went loose in her mind.
I had therapy yesterday and by chance an answer came to be that made sense. That I had become so entrenched into my addiction or it to me that I could not do both. I could not give my W anything she needed emotionally or it put my addiction at risk. That it was one or the other. I came to this as I looked at then and now. Then I was 100% into my porn, spending any time I could find on the computer, not barely acknowledging my W. Now I don’t have .001% of an urge to look or be on a computer at home, but 100% to be with my W. To kiss, to be intimate, to do everything. As she allows, we have been and it has been great, more than it ever has been. I have no cringing, no fears, etc. So what I see is that it is there, it is possible, it is in me. Kinda like living a dual life, but not. Only one can exists. I want the one I feel now. I know that my wakeup call caused me to go into a flight, survival “mode” I know that where I am at is not a “fix”. I know that if my W magically cam e back that I would more than likely slide right back into the past behaviors. I know I need to fix me before I can be in a relationship, I know… Then my emotions come and try to tell me, but…

And you're 44 y/o, so you don't get to blame the "tough childhood" for your present day choices. You just don't.

You acknowledge them and you repair them.

I do know this, even though I don’t act like it. I am in the poor me because it is what I know and it if where I feel comfortable, more later in repy.

This is a solution based forum and I LOVE that. It means we don't wallow in our repressed memories or the abuse we suffered. IF it is true, We identify it and we process it and we move on. (And yes, I speak from experience with this so I've been there, done that. Better late than never.) We find solutions that work and those are the ones we do.

I attended the Essential Experience workshop again in February (I believe I've shared that with you but check out their website. It's the fastest most efficient way to shift your paradigm and you need that, imo)....

I have looked, many time and come up frustrated each time. Right now there is no money, not an excuse. Cost is $695.00, flight would be $400. And I could stay with people from EE. I do not have the money, nor a cc or a way to get one. I have made this a goal, just will have to be later…

Anyhow, a 43 y/o man there said that he'd like to someday have a successful sexual experience...even just once. B/C he never has...

His problem is not physical, but one that results from terrible abuse suffered as a child. He's still working on it. He found the right combination of resources and, he did the work. And he's better.

So Don't use your childhood or your present day problems as a reason to keep love away from you. You may be hurt but pushing your wife away like that, for so long, hurt you both a hell of a lot too.

I don't see any choice but for you to work this out asap. Truly.

[/color]

The T was OK and it went OK. Not great, not bad.

It's extremely premature to decide how good or great or "not bad" your therapist is. Don't set them, or yourself up, for failure by having unrealistic expectations.

Most therpaists don't show their cards, so please don't assume that he or she not hugging you or "Looking sympathetic" means a thing. I think the hugging or the sympathy you were seeking is premature AND it is irrelevant IF their words and insights help you. They're not there to be your friend so much as to be a guide to your self healing.

He wants to keep seeing me, yet will look for someone more specialized for me. This is normal and I understand the logic of it, yet feel push off.


Sorry JP but that^ reaction is just not fair or appropriate.

You said he'd see you again, so there is NO rejection from him there. Period.

[color:#009900]I feel pushed off, yes I know it is me.

He said you need a specialist, which makes sense, AND which you claim to understand...(well, do you understand or not? Are you lying about believing you need a specialist?)

No I don’t think so. I went to California to see a group of specialist for about a month, all out of network and dropped about 20k there between their rates and group meeting, etc. It helped, gave me tools, yet I know I need to find someone to see for years. I plan on continuing with current T.

You say it's logical AND he'll see you again, but yet you "feel push off"? That is on you.

You also did not sound too fond of him so maybe you projected the "No one can help ME, b/c my problems are so unique and so impossible... I may as well give up now...but I TRIED..."

I don't know why you are choosing to feel this way. Please don't tell us your emotions are beyond your control.
First off, where the head goes, the heart will follow. So you need to start thinking straight. So You'll literally FEEL better when you think better.

That "push off" feeling is coming from you, not him.

Stop the stinking thinking.

It's a negative tape you have in your head. You, and ONLY YOU, have to stop and reset that tape, AND the wonderful news is that It IS possible. I've seen it.

I posted a long, time consuming post to you. I included my story of Carol, who has faced more loss than anyone I know.

She still has a great life, with love, laughter and a wonderfully positive attitude towards her world, & those in it. She is very kind and loving and lovable and giving. That's why I posted it to you.

I can't recall you even mentioning it...did I miss that post? I could have.

I read it on another thread, than again on mine. I do thank you. I do see that is what I want. I know that kind of thinking is a choice. I know I am not even close to that.

I know you seemed to defend the position of being unhappy, as if it's a right you have.

Yes, JP, you have the "Right" to be miserable. No one can MAKE you happy.

But I fear You missed the whole point.

You have had intermittent long term depression, correct? So there are some negative thought patterns. There is also an apparent inability to shut off certain inappropriately intrusive thoughts, when you were with your w.

So clearly, learning cognitive behavior control is a great idea for you. And whatever else is available to help you with.

I mean, is there really a choice here? You are already very sad.

NOT fixing the negative behaviors and thought patterns and treating the depression, is simply Not a legitimate choice. It's crucial you get all the help you need and assume all the responsibility for it.

You must do it, or forever surrender to the dark... I know you don't intend to hurt your wife - but you have. A lot of it is wrapped up in this negative thought pattern...and how you "feel"- As if you have no power or control at all...but I truly believe that surrender is a choice. And that learned helplessness is harmful.


If you really had no control over how you feel, then I'd worry that you'd give in to ANY emotion you ever felt..b/c why not?

Hey, you FEEL bad, so you MUST act in accordance with it...right? So, for instance, murderous rage, suicidal depression, reckless abandon...see my point?

Something in you STOPS you from going there, correct? You are not powerless and that is empowering news.

I have amazing restraint with some things at some times and then I give in with others at other times. Something I need to really figure out. I do think I place controls at the very ends or limits as to allow myself to not work until I absolutely have to.

So you already possess some abilities to cope. Now you have to seriously expand them.

JP, FEEL THE EMPOWERMENT OF THE CHOICES YOU HAVE.

[/color]
After today on here and T I am feeling very rejected and worthless.

"after today on here"?

No, before today you felt badly, and now again today. THis is "normal" for ou.
OR

Are you trying to guilt us b/c we told you the truth?

You bet, that is what I do. You hurt me? Well by god I will show you! I will curl up and play the poor JP, and teach you not to do that again! Ugh… Yes that is me…

I don't want to hurt you. But you hurt other people and then feel sorry for yourself so if you want your life to change, we'll help YOU CHANGE it...

You need to see how you choose this path. And then get off it.

Your wife said some amazing things to you. How many h's around here crave hearing such CLARITY from their wives?

She clearly expressed UNmet needs of hers from the past. She was not complaining though it was obviously deeply painful and intimate.

But she bravely went out on a limb and took the chance you'd hurt her or blame her for your rejection. She asked you why you treated her so badly (not in those words) and though you did not openly blame her, it was the kind of answer that does, in effect, make her feel like crap.

This wasn't a one time momentary event. It was an "explanation" for long term physical, emotional and verbal neglect.
JP, a man who won't even SAY he loves his wife, or kiss her or touch her, and then tells her that he thinks of his mother when he's being intimate with her, appears cruel to me. I do not know you well enough to know if you meant to be cruel, I doubt it. But, so what?

If you're ever in a position to avoid hurting a loved one like that, and you are not under oath, and no useful purpose is served by brutal honesty (if that is even true, b/c you were so vague I'm not sure there was truth other than the mother comment) THEN my advice is to say it's that you felt unworthy or unsexy or unable or angry and withholding, but something that's about YOU,

AND that you are working on it, but the rest was, just so not needed...

I don't know you nearly well enough to say it was actually cruel, but JP, like some others said, I shook my head & cringed through out the post.

Yes that is part of what hurt me and threw me. I see some of it, yet don’t see what you all see and that is very scary and concerning for me. When the truth is told I go straight to shutting down, if I don’t like that truth, that is. As much as I don’t want to see it, I almost feel I need a more clear breakdown of that conversation telling me what it really says. And AS I do appreciate your honesty

OTOH I applaud you for putting it out here in its' entirety.

You should not hide your comments, b/c you have to be ready to identify wildly inappropriate responses in order to repair them. We can help with that, obviously.

You now know that Your responses to your w were not loving or appropriate.

AND God bless her for her unrelenting patience!! (in that conversation at least.)

I honestly feel I don’t deserve my W. she is the most amazing person I know, she is who would like to be like, she in my eyes is all good and I am the one who took advantage of that and tore her down, stepped on her and made her my personal ??whatever I needed at the time. I have tremendous guilt.

So she didn't cry about this to you? Man, my heart aches for her. She's a woman of substance. So you know,
Yes she cried many times.


If my h hesitated to touch me for any reason, even one of MY making, I would not simply "feel" rejected, JP. I'd actually be rejected! That is what rejection is.

You knew a need of hers, but chose not to meet those needs. Her needs did not outweigh your discomfort, or how you felt at the moment, or anger or whatever....so you chose not to meet her needs. I mean, all I can say is Ouch...ouch for her AND ouch for you.

It was the same when she wanted to talk. I felt like I became paralyzed. I went numb, just sitting there going make it end, make it end until it was over.

So you know, I think I need to lose 15 lbs though no one has told me that. Over the years, it's harder to lose it, and I have an old injury that is now really bothering me, so I need a new exercise program, but I am determined.
HOWEVER,

If my h said a single negative thing about my weight, it would hurt me AND it would make me feel NOT sexy, and Not feeling sexy means not feeling in the mood...and

that's^^ how almost every woman I know reacts, btw.

So I don't know how your interactions made your wife feel...
I would guess horrible, but comforting as we are so co-dependent.

Since we're being all honest, Why didn't you kiss her or tell her you loved her? I didn't get your answer.
Other than what I said about being either or with her or addiction, I honestly do not know. I remember not wanting to, not having interest and assume that was because my mind was with my porn. When she tried to get me to or asked about it, I locked up, I felt paralyzed. I need to work on finding out why.
Think JP, What stopped you from saying words she craved hearing? Were you angry? On the surface it would seem to be hostile.
Again, nothing in my conscious mind pops up.

I mean, Your mouth works. But You could not say the words? Why not? B/C You didn't "feel like it"?
This is where I came up with some kind of fear, I mean I literally could not say it, feeling paralyzed. That is true and honest. There must be meaning, yet right now it isn’t clear or even muddy

No offense, but, so what if you didn't feel like it?

A lot of us, including ME, have done this "I have to FEEL IT BEFORE I CAN DO IT" attitude and it harms us. We get busy with life and work and kids and financial pressures and social activities...

But hey, First off, it's unloving to withhold affection or words of love, until you "feel like it". But secondly, here's a tip.

**Being loving even when you do not "feel" like it tends to create and generate and elongate those feelings. So The "fake it til you make it'

MEANS that to an extent, you can create this. You ACT the way that is needed, including being courteous and complimentary. One useful tactic our good marriage counselor gave us (as opposed to the worthless ones we saw)

suggested for six weeks, we go out of our way to be polite, courteous and make sure to compliment our spouse at least once a day.

It made us laugh at first, and irksome at times b/c I did NOT FEEL LIKE IT at times...but I stuck with it. The MC was smart.

B/C we were both "faking it" but it did lead to genuinely warmer feelings and that lead to other good things...

Do you understand what I'm telling you ^^here?
I do and right now I can see it and can do it. To be honest, if you had said this before when I was not giving anything, I wouldn’t see it, I wouldn’t care… It wasn’t something that involved my addiction, so it wasn’t important.
I remember getting so mad when my W would interrupt me when I was on the computer, that I didn’t even care what she wanted, she was interrupting me…


JP, there is a very indulgent aspect to this self pity habit.
Would you believe that I am a very, very selfish person? Big goal to change that.


And that's what you are doing right now. Please, don't.


It's like you gave yourself a carte blanche that says if you "feel bad or hurt", you get to be cruel to someone. Like "oops, I felt bad..."
yes, I agree

But Then when you see the direct results of your behavior, instead of owning it (which means stopping the behavior and repairing at least some of the damage)

you seem to withdraw, and feel sorry for Yourself and not bother trying to undo the damage or change the behavior, as if you are saying, "What's the use?"
Exactly, yes, you got it.
Look at your whole reaction to the therapist. I think you already set yourself up for failure with him. He's the "Not great, but not bad" guy you met exactly once.

In that hour or two, I assume the time consisted mostly of you telling him your story and providing your history. IOW, you did most of the talking, which is normal. But what did you expect From him in that meeting? Did you truly expect something useful and insightful from him in that first, one meeting?
he does not know how you take feedback but from what I can see here, you want kid gloves.

IMHO, that's unrealistic, JP. And I think it's unfair.

I worry you will blame him for you not getting better or changing, b/c YOU FELT "the push off" and have chosen learned helplessness, even when it harms people you say you care about.


If you have a chemical imbalance, find the right anti depressant to help with it, along with cognitive behavioral therapy, and whatever other modalities are available for you. I'm no shrink, but I know there is help out there.

Overcoming your inertia is going to be your biggest hurdle, I believe.

But once you do that and actually JUMP IN with both feet to fix yourself,

you'll be a lot happier. You have to do whatever the heck it takes, to man up and snap out of this.


In some ways it's simple.
You must UNLEARN hopelessness and treat the depression better, and that includes cognitive choices on your end.
I think I need some cards that have choices for me to choose from and I have to choose one and have to follow it. So when I do this, I force myself to change.

I know from experience you can have some pretty traumatic events happen, see some crazy things or have them happen to you, things NOT of your making, and heal and be happy. Aside from a boatload of "bad stuff" from my childhood, I had some pretty unusual, stressful events happen in my work and then in the first Gulf War. Those memories rarely bother me now.

Read the post I wrote about Carol again please, JP.

Look, I don't want to be harsh with you. I don't like that at all.

Yet I sense very deeply, that further coddling is not what you need.
Need, no. I need a stiff kick in the a55. Then it is on me to change my reaction when that happens.

You have allowed yourself to "feel bad" to such an extreme that this allowed you to hurt others, people who cared for you, all b/c YOU felt bad.

Not cool. Not fair and NOT loving.

So, how can we help you not wallow or hurt others, but without being too brutally honest?
[/color] Maybe the brutally honesty is what I need. It will be up to me to “man up” and not go cry poor me, everyone hates me.
I'll be back, yet need to leave for now, be it an hour or a day or longer.

I feel I babble and spin and

No, not too much to me. But so you know, we all do that at times. All of us.

like I just don't live up to the help I am given.

Your choice JP. Seriously.


I am embarrassed and feel I said some thing I shouldn't have.


I understand that feeling of regret about "over disclosure". But without full disclosure on a place like this, there's just no way to help. And you're here for help. You are not at your church or workplace standing up and disclosing this. That would be inappropriate. Here, it's safe.

Getting warm and fuzzy feelings is not always going to happen when we post here.

If a guy loses his temper and hits his w, he won't get praise but that's how it is. We'll help someone who needs to make a serious apology and major amends, but he'll get no applause.

A woman here recently told me she felt proud for not using the GPS that she had placed on her h's car, AS MUCH, and not snooping on her h's DB site where he posts his private anonymous thoughts about their m, AS MUCH, and some other things that I literally had never thought of doing. I Would not know how...

so I told her, "great" about not doing it as much, "but fyi, I've never done or known someone who has done those things."

I am sure she was a tad embarrassed, but my intent was to give her a frame of reference so she'd know that it's inappropriate and out of the norm, or bell curve, for her to behave this way. When accurate, I think this is valuable info and hey, this site is anonymous (except for her h I guess).

Make sense?

Yes it does. I need the hard truth. I think everyone though out my life has coddled me, made sure they didn’t hurt my feelings, protected me and so that is what I have come to expect.

I feel hurt. I am having the feeling of quitting again, I need to look at why other than what I just said.

Later.

The truth can hurt.

But without the truth, how will you heal, or recover, or love well?

I did have a hard youth, some really bad stuff happened, not sure what all, but I know there was a lot of crap. I am 44 and it is far past time that I man up and deal with it and move forward. I am co-dependent, I am selfish, I am a master manipulator/controller, I have long lost my good qualities and it will take a huge amount of effort, change and work to find them again.

I have tried many, many times over the years to change, but I honestly think only until it got hard, then I quit.
I really do want to change, I am terrified of that. I don’t know where to start, I don’t know what all I do that is wrong, there is so much wrong that I get lost.
I think starting at self-worth and becoming kind, losing the selfishness is as good as any place to start, yet I can’t ignore everything else or can I? Focus on one thing, then something else happens and I lose that thought and think about yes I need to change this too.

I do know that I have some good. I think my fear is that I think the bad outweighs the good by a huge amount.

I do appreciate your post 25 it does help. I appreciate everyone’s, even if it hurts. That is something (one of those things that pop up outside of working on self-worth and kindness) that I need to work on.

It becomes overwhelming and I want to take a nap, it hurts and I want to crawl and hide, it is scary and I want to close my eyes.
Out of all the people I know, My W , the one I hurt the most has given me the gift of waking me up. Now it that I am awake it is up to me to make something of that gift or not…

Stepping away from being the victim, the poor JP is something that I think may need to come first. No matter what, that is where I fall to.
Thanks 25

I need the hard love, I need to grow up. That is something I have not mentioned on here and I think it has merit. I think I emotionally stopped developing in my early to mid teens, maybe earlier. I emotionally act like a child. It needs to be all about me, the world is centered around me. If I dont get what I want or feel hurt, I will let other know it by whatever means works on them. So I wonder how old I really am, emotionally...At what age does a child act that way, or the way I act?