Hanging out, down the street

[kat727]

Maybe the whole point of jumping isn't the "rush" but the actual peace you feel. No one tells you to expect that. So I am thinking it is a secret.

As for editing, I would always go back and fix my typos but I suppose it was a means of controlling what we did or didn't convey to our fellow DBers. It was decided by the mods that we were not adult enough to have our own conversations or possibly contact each other outside of the DB forum do all editing was stopped. I would at least a year ago if not longer.

As for having your adult kids move in with you: be clear about expectations ie they are not guests but must contribute to the running of the home. Be clear about boundaries and consequences. It is a big decision. Proceed with caution.

kat

[kml]

The reason they got rid of the edit button, 25, is because, once they decided they didn't want people contacting each other offline (probably a liability issue), people tried to circumvent it by posting their contact information for a minute and then deleting it after the other party had copied it down.

That's why they disabled the edit function.

[JustStunned]

25

There is quite a bit to chew through here. I’ll try to be as brief and attempt to stick to a Red font.

JS

I am only now caught up and am on my way out of town so I have to be brief...which is of course, a relative term.


This is brief?

I love your ability to articulate difficult emotions with subtlety and nuance. I get it.

Anyhow, I have at least one gay daughter, maybe two. I do NOT agree with your x wife's views and find it ironic that any WAW with children would decide on THIS path to salvation...

(="compensate much?")

Possible and I believe it is more complex than that. She had a vision of how the kids would turn out and how our lives would be spent. We had discussions about her disappointments. How those discussions shaped our lives at home and with the kids is an aspect of our relationship I do not regret ending.

Our daughter is 30 yrs old now. She came out to X when she was 17. I was away from home that night on a business trip, traveling with a coworker riding shotgun. X called to tell me. She was crying. She was upset. She told me this was just a phase. She did not take this news very gracefully. Our daughter has that night in memory and discussed it with me recently. I came home from that trip and acted badly. I have since made amends to my daughter about my behavior. In retrospect I should have confronted X about her expectations rather than our daughter about her choices.

When I met X she had run away from a domineering relationship with her mother. Part of that was controlling her freedom and access to friends. We were both raised in the Baptist faith. After we married X introduced me to her friends and they were forming a church. I was too pragmatic (the leader’s description) and we were asked to leave. X in some ways has returned to her friends and their church to gain strength in her new life. In many ways she has become her mother

But if it's true that both my girls are gay, of course I ask myself
how it could NOT be related to how h and I did not model a healthy marriage at a key point in their lives?

I do not accept the tenor of our marriage created our daughter’s sexual preference. I do not think it is that simple. I do not subscribe to the nature versus nurture theories. I believe we are more complex beings than these theories describe. I do not believe in the single root cause here. I believe in nature and nurture if that makes any sense.

I believe all of us are equipped at the start with a unique potential and then our environment, actions and choices shape the remainder of our experiences in this existence. I believe each of us builds or destroys our potential for happiness. Part of that process is experimentation.

We once had a wonderfully rewarding marriage and one in which we both achieved a lot, and were crazy about our kids...

I now think I don't have to understand "why" they are who they are. I merely have to accept and love them as they are.

So maybe enough with the blame...it only makes it seem that I think they are "wrong"...and I don't want that message to come from me.

I'm far more concerned with their choosing a mate well, than with what else society or some family members might say.

I agree whole heartily here. It follows a challenge my mother placed upon me when the children were maturing. She proposed a scenario of what I would do if a teenage pregnancy occurred. “How will you handle it?”

Sadly I presented a rather draconian response.

Mom countered and made me think it through with “Really, think about it again, because that would be your grandchild deserving of your love and my great grandchild who I will know”

I have had my own "coming out" with this and it has not been as easy as I would have guessed. IT's been a real process for me and I'm still in it.

Thankfully I never came from a place of condemnation or trying to save them from a sin...just not believing it in one case, and feel worry and fear for them both.

I have many gay friends but when it is your d, and maybe "all" your d's, it still feels like some sort of failing on my end...

not b/c they are "wrong" but b/c I worry I must have been...if that makes any sense...and let me admit up front, I want to be a grandmother someday.

We did not fail. We raised a person who is confident and forthright enough to make a hard call in the face of opposition, to stand up for self and their loved ones despite hardship. Who will make a life and be a productive member of this society. As parents we have succeeded for we have nurtured a person of character.

And after having to stand by as my daughter endured and eventually went through ending a destructive relationship I pray she finds and enjoys a long loving relationship.

Sure, it can still happen but it's one dream I have to let go of (meaning, the method of how it happens IF it happens, is not up to me).

I understand the desire for grandchildren. I want more grandchildren. I have not spent time analyzing why and I don’t wish to. You’ll have grandchildren if they choose to have children.

I have checked myself against interjecting my desires and opinions regarding my kid’s choices particularly about grandchildren. Sometimes I find the effort difficult and I have pointed out where I perceived some of life’s challenges. I do not perceive this as attempting to control the outcome. I do not think they perceive this as meddling. I attempt to restrict my input to times of potential crisis or barring a crisis when it is solicited.

My daughter has expressed a desire to adopt special needs children. It is tough to parent special needs children, I have personal experience, as I had an elder sister who was special needs and my parents were at the forefront of mainstreaming. Having expressed myself here it is not something to belabor. She is a psyche major and has experience working as an aid in a group home. She has some idea of the responsibilities should she decide to execute it.

Anyhow, NONE of this is their problem...it's mine and yes sometimes it affects the R with h b/c I know they resent him a lot...more than I realized.


of all the issues now at hand, THERE is one big one, which is THEIR R's with h.

H and I are reconciled. IT's not perfect and it can be rocky. But I know there is love and commitment...

sometimes I worry that the adult kids' negative comments are patently unfair to h,

other times I worry that I am in denial...

Things can be smooth with h and I but when the kids are mixed in, I realize how left out of the reconciliation process they were. They did not attend Retrovaille or witness h's breakthroughs, etc.

I think that's on me...(and h) but I mean, it's on US for somehow not bringing them along. If I could write a chapter in DB, it would be on how to bring your kids with you along the journey

whether you reconcile or not, you need to heal and show them how...

You raise some other issues I hope I can help with b/c I'm dealing with some, so perhaps it'll only be with the comment

"Me too"...

I hate the emotive upheavals. Short though they are they are still disruptive.

I dreamt X wanted to and was trying to reconcile. I puzzled is this something I am wishing for, or something I fear? I still do not know. I have no time to waste upon it and although it took a bit of time and effort to stop wondering I have walked away from the coaster.

DIL asks if I am amiable to her family moving in. So I may have house guests again. Might be longer this time, might not happen. Time will tell. July or there abouts. We’ll see.

Making my list of pros and cons.


Anybody out there have their adult children move back in? Might be for a couple of years. Biggest concern is damaging the progress I have made and the relationships I have with them.

I am NOT familiar with your previous r with them so I'd need to know more before I can be of much help. Your past R with them will color how you see things and how they see things... it's not just in the past.

We are still growing the relationship. DIL only knew what she had been told. I am lucky and grateful for the opportunity to introduce myself. I think that relationship is growing. My S really only knew me as half of Mom and Dad. We are experiencing a period of growth as well. They are only in the area for another two years.

My S is a local Marine recruiter. He has two years remaining in this billet. My DIL is also a Marine, recently separated. They moved nearby a year ago and the lease on their apartment is up in July. The downsizing of the federal budget is causing changes in my S’s assignment. This will require more time driving and increase his out of pocket expenses. They perceive a financial hardship looming and have begun looking for housing closer and less expensive. The search is not going well. Moving in with me would extend their budget and provide a buffer of time to find something in their price range.

This is not without precedent as they lived with me for about two months last year when their original housing proved to be untenable. My S does not wish to move in with me as he perceives this as a sort of failure on his part. This last is per DIL. DIL on the other hand sees advantages in having another adult to speak with and of course financial. At this point this is all just a discussion between DIL and myself. As a contingency plan it takes some pressure off finding other housing .

Since I am now having all 3 of my kids under one roof, let me mention a few hurdles. My youngest is in high school so of course she's here.

s26 moved out here with his GF in their own place. They did not work out, but he stayed back in our city, as ex gf went back east. Though he seemed resolute in his choice, s26 was also quite heartbroken...it was good we were there for him.

I'll never forget seeing her drive off in tears, and then his stoically seeing her off, only to turn back to us (= me and his sisters) with tears streaming down his face.

He said he mourned "what might have been, what he thought he had found and didn't have to look for anymore..." SIGH...

Since there is such a big age difference between s26 and our d15,
they only lived under one roof for 7 years,

so I LOVED the concept of his being here for awhile. Reminded me of times I thought had been lost forever. D24 and is also here. And he seemed to need us.

H was deployed to the Middle East last summer and his deployment terms were vague (4 months? 9 months? A year?) So he was going to be GONE and I'd be on my own with d15.

I followed your comments and I am glad he has returned. I understand deployments well. Personally although not recently, loved ones, and friends of loved ones have deployed. I believe some deployments are less equitable than others. They are dictated by needs of the organization with little or no consideration to anything else.

D24 was living on her own but came home mainly to help out with d15 and to save money. I liked and appreciated her return. Then s26 and his gf broke up, and he stayed with us while she returned to NYC.

They have said they'll be moving out within what is now, a few months.

So I found myself with the three of them under my roof again.

I am sure they want to move out, but they also are all very close to each other. And it's pricey to move out AND I THINK they like being here for d15.

Now h is back in the US but he works out of town during the week.

To the kids, this is a repeat of the past (albeit not so far like Alaska but in a few hours drive)

so he's home each weekend and plans on coming here when a similar job comes up in our hometown. This is in order to obtain a pension, which was supposed to have happened by now but seems delayed, again...(I'm not being paranoid, just tired of it).

They find this infuriating AND YET they also don't want him here more and 2 of them complain about him being here...a lot.

They pull me into their conflicts. I don't life feeling torn.

I now wish to reject that more, so my new "Policy" is to say "tell your dad that complaint, OR come to me with a solution proposed, b/c just complaining to me about my h, is not good for our marriage, or your r with him."

FWIW, working with adults I apply an 8 minute rule. I let them vent for 5 to 6 minutes and then start asking for solutions for about another 2 to 3. I’m not standing there with a stop watch just mindful of the time and tone of their presentation.

Sometimes they "gang up" and it gets tiresome...but that can happen in any situation with our children.

Here is my main concern for you.

I worry that your position is weakened b/c you have a grandchild and there is no way you'll toss them out if they cross your boundaries.

In my case, I WOULD have my kids leave if they were out of control or too respectful or disruptive, etc. I really believe I could do that if need be b/c I would do it with love. Meaning, I would do it because if they behave like selfish entitled beings, then my only way to alter them -this late in their life- is to hold them accountable.

it'd be an act of love and a form of discipline to remove them...I say that b/c a friend once told me that her mom kicking her out of the house when she dropped out of college and was not paying rent or working...was actually the kick in the pants she needed. Decades later SHE (my friend) is a great mother...so yes I think I could kick them out if I felt the need.

Or so I say

Point is, you'll have no leverage if they overstay their welcome. You may well feel powerless OR THEY may see you as being powerless...b/c after all, Are you going to make your grandchild homeless?

That's the rub. SHE is not responsible for their financial woes...and yet...

Are their problems due to economic conditions, or their wasteful spending or a rip off or their employment in a rough industry? (my older kids are actors and into film production...which comes with GREAT financial security ...)

or are they having hard time b/c of their mistakes? If this is mostly on them, and it probably is, what will change by their living with you?

Why won't they stay on longer? Why would they want to move out if the house is big enough and you can help with their dogs and childcare AND bills?


If you want to help them, and I know I would, I'd just get something decided with all 3 of you there. I don't know your r with them

but at least once, all 3 of you must agree with clarity about what the time limits are for this arrangement and what their expectations are and yours...

and what you need from them.

All good points and I take them well. I’ll not kick them or my grandchild to the curb. I think DIL is more mature than the average 20 something American women. I attribute some of this to her life experiences at home and in Iraq. When she broached the subject I hesitated to agree immediately. I think she began to mind read and volunteered boundaries. My hesitancy relates to my concern of falling into rescuing behaviors.

I think the biggest hurdle will come from my S. He’s putting in easily 6 10 hour days a week

I find my oldest is surprised by my wanting help with the house and yard, WHEN I ask, and not when it's too dirty for him. That irks me.

I suggest your DIL NOT take on all that (b/c she's female and it seems to come naturally to us OR to those around us)

so be clear about some sort of "contribution" from them. Your son helping with projects or paying something or saving money and having a PLAN for when they'll leave and how...

Finally, child rearing...that's a biggie. (I think the DOGS will be an issue.
S26 and his gf both had dogs so we had a total of 4 dogs here.

My brilliant poodles don't shed, but their dogs were like chemo patients...fur everywhere...and debates about whos' dog peed where, was lovely...) plus son's dog is deaf and not bright

(hey, he's a PUG so he's a lover, not a thinker)

so if dog care was an issue that we "handled" but still found an undertone of stress inside...then imagine your feelings about their child rearing...


Yes, there are three dogs and two cats. We dealt with it last time and there was quite a bit of shedding. The Mastiff drools profusely.

Three jarheads, a baby, two cats, three dogs…sounds like the making of a comedy.

If you are not in alignment with their child rearing, (and what grandparent is??) you will need to STFU at times in your own home...yikes.

that would be hard for me.

But if you know the date they'll be in their own home, it'll help all parties.

And you can definitely bond well with your GD...that is NO small thing. I would love that part...

and if you keep on GAL and set boundaries with the GAL, maybe it'll end up being great for you AND your GD ...

And them!...

I know you will not to see it as a victory or "win" over your ex wife.

I want to think I am past counting coup. I do admit to spending a few minutes dwelling on what if they moved in with her last year when they arrived in the area.

But she may well see it as a loss on HER end and if she's still keeping a scorecard, as most WASs do...

who knows how many points she'll deduct from you?

She may get more wound up saving your gay d, or saving them, or the granddaughter or whatever...

That can't matter or get inside you.

Make sense?
It is a given she’ll react. Bringing the kids closer will expose more to me than I wish. It is another place I need to make my concerns known. I catch some spill over venting occasionally and I have had to ask for peace a few times. Mostly this is respected. Venting is venting and releases pressure I just don’t want to be part of it when it turns to X.
Now
I'm off to a family wedding. My closest brother's daughter is marrying...and it's costing a fortune but the sad part isn't the money (okay it's part of it)

but it's a marriage with little hope of lasting

(sorry for the cynicism but my niece is a selfish little 19 y/o having a "Barbie" wedding and no, I'm still not sure what that means.

The invitations were pink, if that helps. (I hoped it meant getting a cheap gift but I'm wrong...they only registered at the most expensive of places...)

but I do I expect the wedding to have great entertainment value.

It's sad of course but I'm going for my brother. I know He wished different things for her...

so in the grand scheme of things, when we contemplate our children's life styles, choices or how they just are,

I like to think that none of my kids would have a wedding/marriage that would cause great pain to a parent, as my niece's has for my brother...

So I'm going to it so my brother has another woman in his life - he can count on watching his back.

keep posting JS b/c

sometimes I think it's the post recon AND OR the post divorce

stories we need more of.

The storm has passed but there are more on the horizon b/c life is just that way.

We can't forget to get the tools we need and need to hone and gain more of, as life throws new curve balls our way.

My mom visited last month and her dementia is progressing rapidly. My oldest sister is a saint who has her full time so I do what I can when I can...

I saw some notes you had about your mom too...see, life never just "gets all worked out"...

we will always need tools and support and meaningful connections in our lives.

Mom lives next door about 200 feet from my front door. This proximity and my daughter living with her has enabled us to keep her cared for at home. My daughter moved in with her Grandparents a few months after her 18th birthday. For freedom from the pressures she felt at home.

She has been helped with oxygen therapy and some med changes. Recently she experienced some additional spinal degeneration and is in pain whenever she attempts to walk. We have additional medical visits scheduled, however I think the only thing we’ll be able to do is keep her comfortable.

I'm grateful for the ones in my life. And I know you are too, which is why YOU are "getting all worked out"!

((( )))
[/color]

That was quite a bit and I know I need to read it again and maybe post an edit. I have never taken compliments well. It is gratifying to receive feedback that positive progress is perceived. Thank you.

I am trying to muddle through and make my life better as we all are. GAL is a big part of that and so are the connections we have. I will jump again. I have a few other things on the project plan. I am having my own little MLC here. I will plan and fund it carefully. In this case it means putting off another jump until the late summer or early fall.

[JustStunned]

Kat,

I do not live for the rush; I appreciate the rush and really expected it. I noted the peace and there is quite a difference. Perhaps it is the peace rather than the rush, or the contrast of the two and the transition that occurs when the canopy deploys. Something to ponder as I plan for another.

I have never been on the board when we could edit. That hasn’t stopped people from making connections. More difficult, not impossible.

The kids were guests for a couple of months last summer and your points are well taken. Eyes open, tread softly, and check six.

Thank you for posting.

[JustStunned]

I think I should expound a little.

Sometimes we seem to only post about the negatives. Life with X was at times everything I think a marriage should be. There were a lot of positive moments and I have many good memories. To be fair she wasn’t always the overbearing, self centered, manipulative, bat sh1t crazy person she presently presents. Or maybe she just decided there was no longer a need to maintain the charade.

We are D. I post about her b/c her actions cause pain to people I love. I do not hear about most of it. I hear about it when their frustration peaks. It is difficult to stay out of their drama then, but I manage pretty well. Bashing and finger pointing is destructive and this is not where I need to go. At this point I prefer she be bat sh1t crazy elsewhere with someone else. It was her decision.

There was an 80’s joke about a person that planned their life down to the minute and wrote it all down in a personal planner. X was a bit like that. Not down to the minute, but there was a plan. I found myself doing much of the same to keep the chaos down to a manageable roar and meet expectations hers and mine.

Life happens and life’s challenges have a way of showing us we should remain flexible. I find now I can relax a bit. Have a plan B and adapt as needed. There was a time when planning was a quite bit more complex.

Did your wife resist your d being gay before she decided on her new religion, or after?

was that an issue for you guys? Did she blame you? Herself?

Evil friends?

When we were first married gay, straight, bi, tall, short, thin, fat, black, brown, white were not topics. Generally in talking about people she did not use descriptors that classified people. One of the things I admired about her was her apparent lack of prejudices. She didn’t stereotype.

When our daughter came out W first took the news and denied it. “It was a phase, experimentation. She isn’t gay she’s bi. She doesn’t know what she is. She just needs to meet the right man. We should help her decide.”

Anger ensued, particularly when our daughter hooked up with someone who was abusive and took advantage of her. That relationship took about 5 years to run its course and about another 3 for our daughter to resolve within herself. There is the evil friend. I believe our actions contributed to our daughter’s choice of partner and her estrangement from our family during this time.

After the relationship broke up and our daughter began recovery, X had expectations our daughter had learned her lesson. Our marriage was crumbling by this time. My lack of enthusiasm to again participate in our daughters rescue was just another friction point and I believe it was a minor one.

Our daughter is reintegrating into the family with the last holdout being X. They have their challenges. I am glad our daughter is able to maintain a healthy outlook though this. She vents to others mostly. Her aunts, DIL and one cousin.

DIL has issues related to X also. That is probably another long post. DIL’s mother is at end stage Alzheimer’s. X is part of her care team I stay out of this other than to validate when DIL expresses frustrations.

Ever feel like you’re walking a tightrope over a chasm in a high wind? I cannot allow myself to become wrapped around these axles.

[JustStunned]

Ok, so plan B then, err maybe C?

Over last weekend the extended family gathered for a baby shower. I hoped to visit with some of them. That did not happen. It was a bit of a disappointment, but several of the nieces managed to make time to visit with my mom and that was good.

S, DIL and GD were over for a little family time around the grill Monday afternoon. GD is 16 months and her personality is showing. In my opinion the next 18 months should be interesting as S and DIL transition into having a toddler. Afterwards on impulse I decide to visit an online dating site to see what the fuss was about. About three pages in I realized I had been funneled into registering and decided to stick around for a while longer. After another two pages of form I bailed. I am not ready to place that much personal information, hopes and dreams out in the public domain. At this stage it probably would be perceived as needy and needy is not attractive.

Returning to my personal plan is the better choice. I have that experience and now know some of what to expect for building a profile. And as it turns out life interceded and I need to focus elsewhere for a while.

After another medical professional reviewed mom’s CT scan it seems she has fractured one of the vertebrae in her lower back. This is likely putting pressure on several nerves causing/contributing to her pain. She is scheduled for surgery Monday. This morning was about getting her in an MRI and tomorrow is preadmission testing then another Dr’s appt tomorrow afternoon. I won’t know what the next leg of this journey is until after Mom is in recovery. I can expect some rehab, but how that will take shape or where it will happen is unknown and very dependent upon how well she tolerates anesthesia.

So here is where I will focus for awhile. Not completely, as I have my life and some goals I can work to move forward while helping.

[JustStunned]

Mom made it through surgery and tolerated the anesthesia well. She has not yet been discharged from the hospital. This morning she was sitting up in a chair and ate remarkably well. They wish to monitor her while she walks a short distance before discharge to home.

I am researching stair lifts and hope she will consider this as an option at home.

[Valeska19]

Glad to hear that surgery went well. Continuing to send prayers your way.

[~ kd ~]

Good to hear your mom's surgery went well.

My mom is entering her third week in hospital. She was admitted on the 20th of May due to excruciating pain causing her difficulty walking. Finally find out the pain is caused by hip deterioration. Waiting on emergency hip replacement hopefully by end of week or early next.

Definitely life altering for people who loose their mobility like this. She was adamant she did not want to move. Now, the folks will probably have to move, just for mobility and medical needs as they're aging.

How old is your mom?

[gunny]

hope your mom is doing ok stunned,
Semper Fidelis