Crazy little thing called MLC

[Raine]

I'm at a wedding right now. Can you believe it? Yes I drove 5 hours with 4 youngsters and made it through a wedding without a casuailty. Yes. I kick ass. It's absolutely beautiful here and the kids are loving it. I'm lucky I have such well behaved kids. No way I could do this otherwise. It's a really nice place they rented. But I hate that it's hard on the emotions to be on my first little vacation without him. Why can't I forget him?

I keep checking in on here when I go to my room to feed the baby. I hate that I can never get my mind off of the sitch. I'm not ready to move on and date, and even if I was, could you imagine? "Sure! I'd love to go out. No I'll drive. I need the carseat so i can bring my newborn. Oh did I mention I have a two year old too?"' Sometimes I've wondered if H did this to me at this point because I am clearly not going anywhere for awhile.

T it needs to happen. He says he is off with OW1 and she isn't talking to him. But I don't know what to believe. I think it could be right back on. He is seeing someone else and I'm pretty sure it's ow1 but no idea. I got to think their relationship is very volatile and he likely uses me and his connection back to me at times as the reason for the bad in their relationship. I just don't know how he could think there was anything there when he would be cheating on her too? Just weird.

I feel like I need to have a convo with him and tell him to have at and that I need to stop being his friend while he figures it out. That I will see a lawyer and figure finances but I don't feel like I should be the one to file. I don't know. I almost think I should just say he should be the one to file and leave it at that and see the lawyer without telling him, to see where I'd stand. I need to talk to him as so much is left hanging, i just don't know what to say, other than what I posted before. I feel I'm capable of anything at this point. The vulnerability is the lack of confidence in what I'm doing. The goal would be H back fighting for me and our marriage. I can handle anything to get him there. But I don't know what would be the better approach. I've been his friend to keep the connection, as a comparison to others. But the result of that is platonic friendship.

I should clarify too that the previous convo didn't happen in anger. It's more that negative things were said. The negative things were me attacking ow1 and him saying it wasn't her fault. So I was actually very calm and even toned, I just made threats and then apologized for it. I said Im reacting to the hurt. I asked him how he would feel if i did this to him and he said the same way. Another thing, when I apologized to him for things in the past he said he has done much more to me than i to him. He continues to mention how much i have changed, with this hint that had I been this way before, he would have never done the things he feels he can't come back from.

AJ your a godsend. How are you still single? You just get it. You are my constant ah ha moment. You always pick me right back up again. Thank you for your really nice compliments. It means a lot to me.

I loved what you said about he probably never brought it up before because it wasn't a big enough issue. I thought, exactly! I'm frustrated that he came up with a list of things as the reasons but didn't want to give me any time to address them. Perhaps then he would have needed to come up with others. He just knew he was done and wanted out.

[AJM]

LOL. How am I still single? By choice. I like my life and the freedom. For a while before the trouble with ex, I felt like I was taking care of three teens - my two kids and my ex. It happened fast, but it was absolutely draining to watch that train-wreck and be part of it. The initial feelings of loneliness have long since passed and although I enjoy the company of friends and dating, I am in no rush to get re-married. I've met some great people and dated some great ladies, some for longer than others. Really good times. Life is good and full for me but I recognize I need the time to rebuild my life without my ex (20 years - takes a while to re-build after that and I'm in no hurry.)

I don't think your H knew he was "done". I think he is just fubar'd. I think he did know he wanted to date and couldn't married to you, but likely was conflicted and didn't know why. Enter the "creative reasons" phase where he brought up how you didn't lick the stamps properly before putting them on the envelopes, or how you drink your water with three ice-cubes instead of four. Or how you would pet the dog with your left hand instead of your right hand. I mean, really? What's wrong with you?? I think in my case, if I heard the babbling and incoherent sentences correctly, it was because I didn't take her on a short vacation a few months earlier. Then it was because of how I treated the kids, and then... it changed a lot of times, but you get the picture. It's not really about you. It's not because of you. There were things you could have done better, and are very much willing to do better should you face that again. If that were the real issue, you wouldn't be here on this board, right?

That's what I saw in my own marriage. My ex wanted out, but didn't know why. Her mom saw something was wrong. Her answer was to bring brazil nuts in case it was dietary (did I mention we were from California originally?) One of the most helpful things along the way, when I was ready to see it, was that my MC/IC saw ex at the earlier stage of her drop off the crazy diving board into the crazy pool (is she crazy? Not really. Rather, she's human but acts crazy sometimes.) It helped me gain perspective and see that it's not about me. We both saw we were a happy couple a few months prior to the BD. We both saw her want to leave and date other people, and then later start blaming me. A little while after that she turned to anger and distrust of me, but both the MC and I knew what she was like prior to that on a short time before. It was as if she worked herself into a frenzy (OCD anyone?) about things, but the underlying emotion wasn't hatred or years of abuse or anything like that. It was just pure selfishness and fear. From there it was a succession of stepping stones to re-remember her past with me, cheat, lie, blame me, walk away from her friends, her husband, and worst of all her kids. If you look back at my posts from that time frame, I had three goals - get her past her depression (I was worried at one point she might kill herself; it was a real possibility), get her to reconnect with the kids, and give her a chance to reconnect with me. What a ride.

Each situation is different, but many of the actions and words are similar, R. I know quite a few people that have undergone the same thing at about the same time I did. I also know several that went through it many many years ago. Some were married for 7-10 years. Some for 30+. All with similar stories.

What you want is your life (as you knew it) back. What you want is a relationship with the H you knew. You want to be able to trust him and to be able to raise a family with him. While you are missing that, he is blame-storming ways to put it all on you and make himself the victim (did I mention I went through that too? I think we all do. That's hurtful.) Not because he is, but because otherwise he has to face what he's doing. By blame-shifting to you, he can be the victim and feel like he "had to leave you - can't you see that!?). Anyone who disagrees will be excommunicated immediately.

It's far more painful if you believe what he says. And while you sift through some of it for truth, you'll feel that pain. If you're like me (I suspect you're better) you'll more quickly filter out the BS and move to the truth remaining. There will be small kernels most likely. Once you see how much BS, you'll wonder if he isn't a lunatic or an alien. But you'll also see the hurt, the confusion, and the struggles and you'll realize it's not about you or the kids at all. You guys are sadly paying the price for his lack of skill at this transition.

One last thing: you imagine all kinds of things about what's he is thinking, doing, etc. I assure you, you do not know. If you look at what he said, he expected you to do something different than you did. That implies he intended and planned and likely put a lot of effort into figuring out all the angles and retorts and arguments etc.. Like a chess player. That works as long as you remain in the game and let him lead. Once you realize it's not a game worth playing, you walk away from the game and focus on you and him and whether or not you'll continue to do anything with him. No more game playing. That brings sanity back to your life. I could tell you stories, but it's your thread

Peace,
AJ

[Raine]

So what I heard there is you haven't met the right one yet. Maybe one day you'll find the female version of T^2 to sweep you off your feet. I don't feel I need the companionship, but I miss it. But not with the wrong person.

I do agree the "dating" other women is something he has wanted to do, especially seeing our friends go through divorce and dating. I never wanted that. I didn't see the fun in going through the awkwardness of that all over again. I guess H wasn't thinking dating either. He doesn't seem to want to date them. Just use them, get high on them wanting him, and move on. Actually I could see he was thinking dating, but that's hard to do in secret. I'm still very curious as to when this all started. I dreamed last night he said four years after we were married and with a name I have never heard of. I still think something happened 2.5 yrs ago, but not before. I just don't think he could keep it hidden. He gives so much away right now.

That's funny about the nuts. But the reference to CA really made me laugh. Did you move far from your families? Ive felt the distance H has from his family has an impact on the depression. I thought it was depression with H earlier on and since he wouldn't take AD, I got him to take vitamins like magnesium and others where the deficiency is linked to depression and St. John's worts. But he stopped all of those at S.

Selfishness has been a big part of it with H. That has been growing the past several years. I was feeling neglected. I was at the bottom of his list, with himself and his job at the top. That made me resentful. It is all about him now, but he doesn't see it that way. He told me that he feels pulled and obligated to everyone else. That people think it's just all about him but it's not. I told him it looks like it is all about him from the outside. His priorities are just jacked then. That means he feels as obligated to a random friend at work as he does his kids.

My goal has been to get him through this so he is a good father and he isn't like this the rest of his life. The depression scares me too. He was back to talking suicide to me a few days ago. Been awhile since that happened. He is also back to not spending time with the kids. He has missed the last two weekends and all he does is spend a 3-5 hours on Saturday with them, but he hasn't skipped one of those since February. He also skipped both of his planned nights out with new friends this last week.

Much of his complaints about me were true on some level. The problem is they are out of context, without reasons for why that was, and always in absolutes. Because I researched something instead of following his feelings a couple of times with parenting, he acts like this was 100% of the time and I think all of his opinions are crap. No point in arguing with him. I don't believe I caused any of this but I do agree I've made mistakes and haven't been understanding and compassionate all the time. I know my faults better than anyone, but even then I don't blame myself for this situation. I don't feel blame towards him either.

I haven't felt like he planned much of anything. I feel like he is flying by the seat of his pants. He does have expectations of how I should react, like how we would expect anyone to act, but I keep throwing him for a loop. He thought he knew me so well. It's almost like he keeps saying the same things and doing the same things over and over with me and expecting a different result, but keeps getting the same puzzling one.

Everyone loves a good story. Go for it.

[Raine]

I've been reading some interesting articles on psychology today about infidelity and depression. One starts by saying:

When you investigate infidelity, depression pops up surprisingly often. While I have written in other posts that infidelity has little to do with unhappiness in a relationship, there's quite a bit of evidence that extramarital sex does have some indirect links to feelings of sadness, unhappiness, and depression

Sitch update
H's depression is really bad right now and has been for over two weeks. It's like he is immobilized. He has had a few replay activities, but for the most part he has shut down. He is doing the things I ask of him, like showing up to kid events, but he has avoided going out with others on his weekly scheduled nights to hang out.

He came over yesterday morning to watch S2 while I took S8 to a counselor appt. (S8 is doing really well, but I want to be proactive.) He looked sad, close to tears, but I just ignored it. When I got back, it was strange because H never moved to leave. A lot of times he is right by the door ready to leave as soon as the garage door opens, especially if he is missing work. Some chit chat, and then he says he doesn't know what he is going to do. I asked about what. He said where he is going. He has to be out of the house he is in by Saturday. He says it's too late to kick that other guy out with less than a week. He hasn't found a place. I asked about the other room for rent and he says it not available anymore. I said no apartments? No. Mind you he just told me he needed to move 5 days ago and now there is nothing available when he had at least three options he was thinking about. And the stress and fear on his face is unbearable to look at. He looks like a guy who just failed his math class and can't get into college and has to repeat his senior year. I told him then he can move back in here while he looks for a place. That I know he doesn't want to be rushed into anything. Instant relief. I was expecting him to say something like he would keep looking and only as a last resort, but no none of that. He said he just has some things to pack up and needs help with the bed but he can do the rest. When he moved out in October he had multiple places he called on and chose between within two days. There are plenty of places near here available when I looked. He shouldn't have a problem if he actually was looking.

I did give him quite a few hugs. He did come to tears multiple times. He told me the depression is so bad right now. I just hugged him and said "I don't want to tell you what to do or force you into something you don't want, but I hope you will decide for yourself to get help. You can do this. And if that means you need to go on AD to fix it, then do it. It's okay to go on them." He just nodded.

I had the boys call him to say gnite and then he wanted to talk to me about nothing for 15 mins. Back to the apologizing for boring me or taking my time.

I know I have been second guessing myself here, but H hasn't seen that. He knows I want to talk, but hasn't brought it up. I won't either, at least not now.

So who knows how this will play out now. I have reasons for why he is moving back in circulating my head, but none of them may be right or all of them could. I think me saying I was going to file and him saying he wasn't moving to his own place by choice was pretty telling, even though I said that didn't matter anyway since he was being with OW. (To which he said she wasnt talking to him anymore and didnt know why--mkay.) He doesnt want me filing. I just think he doesn't know what he wants and doesn't want to lose options. Maybe it's hard on him to have moved back in those two weeks and have all the time with the kids and then have to move out again. He had a lot of time with me too, and it was comfortable. No arguments or pressure. But he has been missing his scheduled time with the kids now. He told me he wanted to come over and have dinner ready for us when i got back from the wedding. He hinted the depression was just too much. That he was even thinking of doing that is pretty mind blowing and out of his MLC character.

So now I'm in an interesting spot. A week ago I was getting ready to file, with some doubts, and now H is moving back in with no stated timeline for how long. If this goes beyond temporary, it is not how I ever imagined him moving back. None of the he has done work on himself and asking to come back and showing he wants to work on us. He may have just found a way to sneak back in. I don't know if I'm moving forward or backward at this point. I guess it doesn't matter as eventually I always realize the movement is forming a circle.

[Takevowsserious]

Hi Raine ~

I can totally see infidelity being linked to depression. Anything to try to make them feel happy, or maybe just feel anything.

It's hard to see when our H's are depressed, a very helpless feeling. I hope your H will choose to get help, and find his way back to his beautiful family.

Thinking of you Raine - you are one tough mamma!

[AJM]

Interesting article. And one that rings true for many things I saw in my own situation. It's a bear to have that on your back, that's for sure. But it doesn't excuse the actions, so be careful, right? Even when depressed, we have choices and consequences.

Mine moved out for about six months. She left on Mother's day and left the kids with me, blaming me as being "too harsh" on the kids as the reason. Go figure. I let her come back after about six months with her telling me that she "loved" me etc. That didn't last long. But I remember during those times that I saw a lot of depression and her searching for the "why" eventually blaming me for it. I set several goals 1)get her over her depression, 2) get her to reconnect with the kids and 3)give her a chance to reconnect with me.

I found out later she was carrying on long convo's with OM (now husband). She still compares her happiness to that period and how she re-remembered her past. As recently as a few weeks ago (as a way of trying to hurt me when she didn't get the response she wanted; but there's some truth in it.)

What I know and I am trying to illustrate is this. H won't change until he has reason to. He won't "snap out of it" quickly and although he realizes what he is doing is wrong, he may not be ready to change. He, like many other addicts (addicted to the happiness chemicals referred to in the article) needs to hit bottom.

It is a circle, but to break it is going to take a reason. H has a reason, but may or may not see it yet.

Just be cautious and keep doing what you're doing, is all I'm saying.

AJ

[Raine]

I hear you AJ. My goal is to have him through this so he has a lifestyle that is a better example to the kids and that he is a dedicated and devoted father. It's been awhile since I've had the goal of him getting through this so we can work on our marriage. That just doesn't seem realistic anymore to me.

I feel he is hiding something major from me. To have him say if it was just a couple of affairs we could work through it, and then to back peddle and say that's all there is...doesn't seem right. He missed his night with the kids again and no call. I had them call for bedtime. He just said he had been driving around. I don't believe him. He talked about he wanted to see a tv show and I asked him if he wanted to come watch it and he said no. He wouldn't be able to get his mind off of "it." Huh? Any further questioning from me just leads to him saying we are going back to how things were and me analyzing him. He says he will tell me but not now.

The not knowing is worse than the knowing. Something came to my mind and it felt right. Total clarity. If this is it, then it is worse that cheating. I can't shake it.

He was starting to be open and honest with me again and now he has shut down and I can't trust him. Not that he is outright lying, but looking for loop holes and not telling the whole story. I hate that this is bothering me so much and I just want to ask him. Especially now with him moving back in. I should know what is going on.

I don't think of him as a victim. He is capable of stopping this at anytime and getting help. I'm angry that I'm in this situation. That he didn't just divorce me and then I wouldn't feel like I needed to know. Blah. I probably would, right?

I'm in this hard place of wanting him to hit rock bottom and for him to be responsible vs wanting to bail him out and wanting the kids to have time with him. He said that he would help out around the house and I just said spend time with the kids. They need you and no one can replace you. If he had said he wanted to come back because he loved me and wanted to work on us, it would be easy to say no. Because he wants to come back because he is helpless and destitute, it's hard to say no.

I don't know where he is with all the OW. I would be very surprised if he tried to carry any of that on while here. That may be the determining factor of how long he lasts.

He said last night that while I was away he missed me, missed the kids. He kept wanting to text me but didn't want to bug me.

I read how hard MLC is to go through. But you just never know until you're in it. You can gal, pma, put it out of your mind, but it keeps coming back. And I know I have the power to stop it for good, but that isn't me. That isn't who I am at my core. I'm not a quitter. I finish it even when it's pointless to do so.

[kml]

Something came to my mind and it felt right. Total clarity. If this is it, then it is worse that cheating. I can't shake it.

Well.....what is it? What do you think might be the thing he keeps dancing around?

[Raine]

That he got one of them pregnant. That would be worse. "It" being they had an abortion. My imagination could and is going wild, but that was the thought that came to mind like a lightning bolt and stuck. I just want to blurt it out at him and ask. This whole "I can't talk about it," and "I'll tell you at some point" is so dang childish. It sure keeps me roped in.

I think I'm kidding myself that I'm done with him, and the reality is I still want that chance at reconnection with a new version of him. And maybe I need to imagine the worse to keep me from bending on what I want.

[job]

Raine,
I'm sorry your mind is in a twirl about his comments, i.e., "I can't talk about it" and "I'll tell you at some point". Please don't assume it to be the worse. It could be something very stupid and childish for all you know. Sometimes they say things to keep us roped into their drama. I've said it before and I'll say it again, sit quietly and the answers will fall into your lap when yo least expect them. If you don't show any interest in those comments or what he's doing, he will tell you because they can't keep stuff to themselves for very long. They are worse than children when you tell them to keep a secret. The less you appear interested, the better if you truly want answers.

No, you aren't done. There are still a few chapters left in your life's book that include him because you have children together. You still have that chance for reconnection w/him, but it's going to take some time. His crisis has to play at fully in order for him to get to the other side so that the "new" version of him will appear and be permanent.

Continue moving forward and keep your eye on what you want for you and your children.