"Now to fix the situation, it requires YOU to change."
Cemar, I have to say that when you constantly state that the only solution is for the LD partner to become as passionate about sex as the HD partner, I feel you are doomed to failure. It ain't gonna happen. Is there any room for compromise here?
Have you read what Dr. Harley has to say about the SSM over in marriagebuilders.com? There is an interesting article in the Q&A column called "Changing a Willingness to Make Love into a Desire to Make Love". In it he advises a LD wife how to get in the mood for ML. Some practical steps that require both partners to make some changes.
But I will admit that without your wife's recognition that there is a real, marriage-threatening problem, and a willingness to address it, you can't take these steps. So I will ask you again, How clearly have you stated the problem to your W? DOes she see the problem as clearly as you have explained it here? I speak as one who only understood the problem once divorce was in the works. I only understand now that my X was deathly AFRAID to make it clear to me, at the point when he still loved me, because to bring it up meant bringing up the question of whether I really loved him. Which I did but I wasn't showing him in a way that he could believe.
I have read a bunch of material, have read these boards, and tried things myself. You know the funny thing about many of these books is when the start listing stories about couples that actually SOLVE this problem, 9 times out of 10 its written towards the LD FEMALE, and what she needs to do to make the problem manageable. You rarely see successful stories when it is started from the HD man's side. There is not much we can do. I think that all us HD guys can do is become the world's best husband by meeting every conceivable need she may have, make the problem clear to the wife, and then WAIT,and WAIT, and WAIT. Now the REAL power to address the issue must come from the LD spouse. I have not seen ANY successful solution that did not require change in the LD spouse. If the frequency and quality of the sex is improved by the LD spouse, then the marriage has a chance. But most of them don't seem to make this change. Then what does the HD guy do? We can not solve the issue by ourselves, but the LD woman CAN solve the issue by herself in some cases. This is what frustrates the hell out of me and many other guys, we can not fix this ourselves. We are dependant upon our wives to move in some way towards a solution, even a copromised solution. If the wife does not budge (and it seems most budge very little), then their are only 2 choices that the HD guy CAN control, that is divorce(sucks) and option #10 from Michelle, Kiss your sex life goodbye and try to salvage a barely tolerable marriage from the ruins of your life. Am I missing something here? Is there more that us HD guys can do to help this situation? I would love to see a book written specifically towards the HD guy and give strategies for HIM to fix this problem, but there are NO SOLUTIONS possible for him, so the experts write these books towards the LD women, like they are beating a door down to fix their LD. I would love to give the SSM to my wife, but I know that this would not be received well, just like all my other requests for some change are not. You know, SHE does NOT have a problem kind of cr#p. I am a sexaul maniac.
Carlotta, what is acceptable compromise? It seem that LD spouses that even among LD women that are WORKING towards a solution still don't have a clue as to how much and how good the sex needs to be. And these are the ones that ARE acceptable to working on the problem. How many guys write on here that the "FIX" in their relationships is to go from once a month to twice a month, wow SOME FIX. CAn we find an ACCEPTABLE middle ground here? Look at my situation, which is not unusual:
My love life during the early years: ML every day at least once. Oral sex performed by her FREQUENTLY. She initiates sex often. She like to be playful in and out of bed. She kisses a lot. Affection outside of the bedroom.
This is what she gave me for the first 4 years I knew her. Now this is what she wants:
Sex, doesn't care if it ever happens again. Initiate sex, yea right!!! LOL!! Oral SEX on guys, Oh that is so gross. Funny, when we were dating she seemed to ENJOY it. Kissing, NEVER. She HATES to kiss me. Affection, again LOL!!!
So what is compromise in this situation? Even if a cut my needs by 50% to like, ML 3 times a week, have her initiate at least once a week, for her to perform oral sex at least once a week, to kiss EVERYDAY, to have HER initiate affection daily, we are still at a level that is WAY WAY beyond what her comfort zone is. My situation is not unique. Many of the HD guys on her complain about the same problem, that when it comes to negotiating a solution, that the LD womans idea of a negotiated settlement is sorry to say, a JOKE. You have to meet about at least half way, and frankly, how many do?
I am very open to compromise, but can a ND women really find it possible to have GREAT sex 3 times a week? I doubt it. 2 times maybe? Boy we certainly have a long way to go. At this point, I would be happy with even just a miniscule change, something to keep my hopes up.
CeMar: Is there anything good that you can say about your W? You seem so angry, and, if I can be a pop-psychologist, you seem very depressed. I feel for you, dude, but you always sound so hopeless. I imagine your household as someplace where the tension is thick and few kind words are spoken. Can't be very conducive to romance or affection. What are you planning for Valentine's day? Flowers? A card? Or just ignoring it?
CeMar: Could you address for all of us the questions that Carlotta posed to you on: How clearly have you communicated your hurt and devastation to your wife, and Does she see the problem as clearly as you have communicated it here?
These questions routinely go un-answered by you. I suspect that is because you like to bitch about the situation but you do not like to actually DO anything about it. I also suspect that you don't talk about this subject at all with your wife.
That is really the first step. Venting is all well and good--and believe me, I understand why you do it here instead of at home--but at some point you gotta get it out on the table with her.
Cemar, I have asked you three or four times now over the months whether you have explicitly SPELLED OUT TO YOUR W how desperate you are feeling. Thank you, Honeypot, for chiming in.
I don't know whether you are dodging the question or just miss it. If you are dodging it, maybe you need to examine why. That would be the first place to start CHANGING YOURSELF. Because if you cannot talk to her about it, I can absolutely promise that she will not understand. Why? Because sex is not important to her. She cannot possibly understand that it is the most important thing in the world to you.
I am living proof of the just-don't-get- it W. And I would have needed A LOT OF confrontation, preferably with a trained counselor (and the one we saw during the dissolution of our marriage clearly did not get it either). In fact, the only reason I get it now is that YOU explained it to me!!! On this very board!!! Have you shown your W the same consideration? If not, then that is a major part of your problem. And I can guarantee that she thinks less of you (at some unconscious level) for moping around over this. I used to think of my X: Why can't he be more of a man and just GO FOR IT? This is before YOU explained to me that half the battle is getting the W to initiate (which, BTW, the marriagebuilders site says is probably not going to happen -- so are you going to be happy having sex twice a week, self-initiated, or are you going to be miserable?)
We have all heard you reiterate dozens of times how your W performed sexually pre-kids and how she behaves now. Why the reluctance to discuss what you have told her about the problem?
You said: Is there more that us HD guys can do to help this situation?
YES. Tell her about the problem you BOTH are having that only YOU are aware of! Tell her in no uncertain terms that the marriage is probably over unless you can improve things.
Sorry to be so harsh but I can see doom on the horizon. And believe me, divorce will not be the happy solution you might imagine it to be. I'm sure my X gets all the sex he wants now and he is not very happy -- he misses his family and he misses me. The very words from his mouth -- go figure.
I have tried talking about the situation with the wife, and I will admit, not very well. If anyone has a good way of talking about it, I am all ears. But remember, this is a woman who says "It's Only Sex" and "I really don't care if I ever have sex again, it's just no big deal."
Don't fall over, I'm not here to bash you, believe it or not.
I'm here to share a story with you because for the last week, I have been so deep in a sh!t hole of self-pity and dispare, I was certain I had failed on all fronts, and nothing but doom and gloom awaited me. Much like you seem to feel.
I won't bother with the very long of it, because it doesn't matter. What it all boiled down to was, my H thought I wasn't trying (again), and I thought he wasn't trying (again). Our frequency had fallen off and he was getting pissy, and him getting pissy with me was making me want to withdraw and not work on it.
Now me being me, I understood exactly what it would take for me to turn the situation around, but I have been completely perplexed as to why I just didn't feel like doing that. Like I say to everyone, I said to myself, "do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem?"
But something was still nagging at me. I finally figured it out, thank god, because I am so sick of wallowing in my own self-pity I can't stand myself.
My H is really, really good at asking for what he wants/needs. I really, really suck at it. When my H doesn't get what he wants, he starts throwing 'put-downs' at me, making snide comments and such that I can deflect for only so long before I get angry. And then when I get angry, we get into those lovely, polite stand-offs that drive everyone crazy and make the situation even worse.
So when I realized that we were getting derailed because I have 'failed to ask for what I want/need,' I immediately felt better. I had to think about what it was I DID want/need, and I had to figure out a way to tell him in a non-confrontational fashion.
So at lunch today, when H came home, I told him that I had figured it out and explained what I have above. I told him that when we hit the bumps in the road (like we have, and like we will again, I'm sure), I would like for him to encourage me to 'stick with it' rather than get in my face with criticism and put-downs. I gave him some examples of things I'd like to hear from him.
He looked at me and said, "Do you know how hard it is for me to do that?" LOL! And I said, "yes, as a matter of fact I do, I know exactly how hard it is to be or do something you are not naturally comfortable doing."
We continued to discuss it, and he came back at me with many 'yeah, buts,' or 'you do it, too' statements... but that did not deter me from making it clear to him not only what I want, but what I EXPECT. It was an extrememly productive conversation, and he didn't feel I had attacked him, and at the end, he understood and acknowledged what I had asked of him.
From that simple act alone, I will gladly climb another mountain for him, and do it PASSIONATELY.
CeMar, my point is, you may think you have asked for what you want, but it could very well be you are not being as clear as you think you are. As you all know, I do not hesitate pulling out my can of WHOMP ASS for anyone, and today, I did it on myself.
My advice to you is to break down you needs and ask for what you want in a series of steps. Otherwise, you are going to overwhelm your wife, and she is just going to shut down immediately.
I think you should tell her, so she really understands, how desperately unhappy you are in your marriage, and that you intend to find a therapist. And leave it at that, and go find a therapist. Don't BLAME her for your unhappiness because if you do, she will shut down again and not acknowledge it as a dual problem.
Once you are in therapy, I think you will learn some invaluable information on how to communicate CLEARLY and without BLAME with your spouse, and once she sees you in therapy and see you really are serious, she is going to see that there really is a problem, and it's not just you griping. She has GOT to acknowledge there is a problem before the two of you can GET anywhere, and you must take every step you possibly can to help her see the light. What you want/need to be happy is something to address AFTER she acknowledges there is in fact a PROBLEM.
Simply, CeMar, you need to ask for what you want, and the only way you can do that is to first figure out what you want/need. I know the END goal, but you have NO CLUE how to get there. So maybe you need to 'ask for help.'
To paraphrase yourself, any explanation of your sexual unhappiness has to be done OFTEN and with great ENERGY.
There is no good way to talk about this. It is deeply painful and worse, deeply scary. I am that wife who blew her H off with "It's only sex" and "you're obsessed." I did NOT understand that to him, it was LOVE. I have you to thank, CeMar, for explaining this to me and saying it so "loud" and so forcefully and in such graphic detail that I finally got it.
So now you have a place to start changing yourself. There is no room for improvement unless you take step one, which is making your W painfully aware of the problem.
In the process of doing this, you will be forced to face your fears -- of ridicule by someone you love, of abandonment, etc. This is a necessary step, I believe. You will find out if your W truly loves you, enough to stick with you when you tell her that the marriage is in great jeopardy unless changes are made.
In the process you will become less her frightened lap dog and more of a man. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's how I see it. You will be gaining control over YOURSELF. I hope you choose to begin this change now.
CeMar: When you talk to your wife do you go into it with the objective of changing her behavior (which you know is pointless) or to just let her in on your feelings (which is what you do with us)? The only way any lasting change came about was when I repeatedly stated my feelings in a non-attacking way to my H. I was relentless. Now, this might not be one of the ways that Michele advises but I absolutely was not going to live in his "It's only sex" world with him.
I leveled with him and I did not try to protect him from my own unhappiness. I was after a better marriage and, in the short term, I had to sacrifice peace in my house. IT WAS WORTH IT.
Action is the only way to go here. Either open the dialogue with her, and keep it open, or set up a joint counseling session, or a meeting with your pastor. SOMETHING. You're not getting any younger.
