Crazy little thing called MLC

[AJM]

I hope he doesn't go spiraling down to rock bottom but who knows.

I am on the other side of this one. For somebody spiraling out of control, rock bottom is the only way to get out of it. I hope he gets there sooner than most as that will help be his catalyst to break the cycle he seems stuck in.

As for you, getting off the train is the only way to survive it. I'm sorry to say that you need that. The good news is that you can get off that train and don't even have to move. Easier said than done of course, but it's not easy watching that train wreck and it takes it's toll.

If it makes it easier, I know several people that did what your H is doing. I know many that later regretted it and wanted back so badly it was equally sickening to watch. One never knows what the future holds, but we do know what is going on right now and the effects it has on us.

It stops being painful when we stop letting it be. Until then, we stay on that train while our spouse becomes "human" (with any luck; some don't and stay stuck.)

Raine, you are amazing. But see the reality and accept it for what it is right now. Get off the train and stop watching m'dear. There will be time enough later to sweep up the pieces if you're still of a mind to do so.

Peace,
AJ

[Takevowsserious]

Hi Raine ~

Just wanted to say hello and let you know that I get where you're coming from, understand what you're feeling. Wish I had some great words of wisdom or something, but it's not happening tonight...

Thinking of you and hoping for some clarity and happiness in days ahead. You deserve all the best, you really do

[Raine]

TWS, I think of you often too. Thank you for your constant encouragement. It means the world to me! I look to you often for strength, as someone who knows that your H is having an A, but still holding her cards. I know how hard that is to do.

T^2, I'm right there with you in that line of thinking of dimming way down and have done that as of two nights ago. Day 16 I know he was a mess, and I fixed it. Picked him up, talked to him for a few hours about nothing, and he was doing way better by the end. And payback was him going over to unknown followed by ow1 that night. Like me doing that made him feel like I was always going to be there for him, built him up, so he could go out and play? I dunno how that works out in his head. Just not doing that again and I went dim. Not like it will keep him in his own bed, just so I don't feel like crap for being nice. More on that later.

GG, That's what I keep thinking too. As others have said, when you're done, you'll know it. You won't question it anymore. As much as I think about blowing it all up, I still have those doubts, and the doubts rarely have anything to do with the marriage, although there is always the thought of he could come back and be the husband/father we deserve and I could forgive him. I see that desire in him often, but I also see the dominating feeling that there is no way back, so don't bother trying. If I hadn't seen changes in H in a positive direction, I think I too would have woken up one morning and been done. As bad as things are now, they are way better than they were 5 months ago. He has fully reconnected with the kids. The month of December he spent 15 hours total with them. Now he is really involved. He is almost begging for ways to be there for me and help me out, even giving up his planned nights out. Before he would go weeks without taking the kids and wouldnt so much as bring a trash can in. He is honest with me, as painful as that can be, I am starting to trust what he says. I gotta focus on that. At least some things are moving in the right direction. I'm glad that you will soon be out of limbo and hopefully be for your birthday! I see such good things happening for you! You are incredibly strong yourself. It takes a lot of courage to make the leap you have and to start a new life. "Don't break character. You've got a lot of heart."

AJ, I agree. I think my H will not stop until he hits rock bottom and leaves a lasting dent. Probably needs to have it cave in and a few rocks fall down to hold him there too. I think my compassion doesn't help in that regard. It is so difficult to get off the train, when it keeps following me and tries to run me over. I'm trying. I stopped the connections to him. Again, it just takes 24 hours of no contact/response from me for him to show up at the house. He did again today. Wanted to see the boys, but comes looking for me first. Wants to know if I saw his FB post and why I didn't comment--that he knows I saw it because I still get the notifications like he does, right?? I told him I couldn't think of anything nice to say. (hah!) I know he was waiting all day for a witty comment from me. (And I'm annoyed that he is friends on FB with all the OW except #1, and all of them liked the post. Any witty comment from me would have surely invovled that fact.)

He then starts talking to me about things I said "last week," except I didn't say them last week, I said them yesterday. And he started repeating things he had already told me too about FB and posting and things they mean. (I told him before that I don't always respond to his stuff because I don't know if he is posting songs for someone else. :P He said he just posts for himself.) And then he talked to me about work, and rumors at work, and people at work. He talked for an hour, and he was nearly in tears several times anytime anything even hinged on me/us.

Oh and get this, at one point he goes, "what's up with your boobs?" He thought one was way bigger, and I shifted and he goes, oh it is just that you were sitting at an angle. (Uh okay?) And then he goes, yeah that wouldn't be good when you are dating. I just laughed at him and said whatever. (I thought that was weird enough to include here. #1, he's now analyizing my chest, and #2 is he testing my reaction to dating?)

So the difference is I didn't hug him or console him when he was in tears, which always gets me. I just acted like he wasn't getting that worked up. And I haven't contacted him since he left either. I feel like that's probably as dim as I'm going to get without changing the locks.

Any thoughts on that and if there is more I can do? I figure when he does show up, I can be nice and talk to him, but also when he starts to engages the boys, I go do something else. I'll stay off FB and slow response to calls/texts. I won't iniate any kind of contact or consoling.

Talked to MIL today who is so angry with H she hasn't talked to him in like a month. She was so sure that him being home for two weeks with baby would change everything and wake him up. She thinking I need to give him an ultimatum and is so tired of seeing him stagnant.

On the important front, the boys are doing amazing. I'm not looking forward to going back to work. It sure has been nice to have so much time to spend with them this last month. It will be good with school being out so we can stay up a little later.

[GatorGirl]

there is always the thought of he could come back and be the husband/father we deserve and I could forgive him.

Oddly, I have already forgiven my H. While he is responsible for how this has gone down (he is the one that quit MC after one session and said he'd 'done everything he could' to his mother), I don't hold it against him. I strangely feel very cold and unfeeling to the whole thing. Even the divorce feels like a medical procedure at this point-I talk about it like I would talk about going to the dentist. No emotion, nada. So very strange. I'm lucky that he takes his time with the kids willingly and also takes them when I can't, so I am very thankful for that. He's just cut himself off from me completely. We aren't friends. We are pretty much acquaintances that have kids, which is really effed up, considering we've been married for 12 years. There's a part of me that wants what AJ (?) mentioned-I want him to come crawling back, to regret what he's done, but that's just my ego talking. I can't ever see myself being with him again. He's an addict, plain and simple. Unless he comes to terms with that, things will never change.

So ready for a fresh start. I kind of feel like the phoenix rising from the ashes-a new creature from the old. It's amazing how many things I did because of him. I hardly drink at all anymore unless I'm with friends-he would have a glass of wine waiting for me every evening when I got home with the kids. It's not something I need and I've discovered that I feel better without it.

I have kind of been seeing someone for the last few months. He and his wife are getting divorced-I guess misery loves company. He lives in another state, which is tough but somehow better than him being here right now. The space is nice but I confess I hate sleeping alone every night. I think the distance is keeping me from getting too caught up with the physical parts and is making me focus on the emotional connection I have with him instead.

Sorry you have to go back to work soon. I loved my maternity leave with my daughter-it was tough going back to work. I loved all that extra time at home with my son and just being able to hang out with him. Hope you are able to savor every moment that you're home with them.

Hugs,
GG

[AJM]

GG, sometimes it is nice to have somebody to talk to who understands. Be careful not to confuse that emotion though, yeah?

Raine,

Any thoughts on that and if there is more I can do? I figure when he does show up, I can be nice and talk to him, but also when he starts to engages the boys, I go do something else. I'll stay off FB and slow response to calls/texts. I won't iniate any kind of contact or consoling.

Does that work for you? If so, keep doing it. If not, then change it. I don't think it's wrong or right, but it is certainly very kind of you to listen. Shows a lot about your character - in a good way.

As for what GG said about feeling like it's a medical procedure like the dentist. I laughed at that. I've been there. I know that numb feeling. It happens to many of us I think. And it's not a bad thing, but for me it was more like I didn't know what to feel and eventually shut down. For a while. It happens. It can be part of the process. But if you get to the part where you don't want him back, then you have to ask yourself why you think about them or want to talk to them. Or if you want to talk to them. When you can honestly answer that question, you'll be on better and more solid ground, in my experience.

I don't think you should listen to your MIL per se. I think you should listen to you, Raine. You're the one that has to live with your choices. Not me, not her and not anyone else. And you'll know when you've made your choice. It'll be evident to everyone else as well. I suspect your MIL is in awe of you and what you do. I also suspect she sympathizes with you and understands how hard it is for you.

As for me, I think you're doing wonderfully. You show a lot of grace under pressure and your kids and H are very lucky to have you. You set a great example. Don't let anyone tell you differently

Peace,
AJ

[Raine]

GG I think I'm compassionate towards him, but I don't think I can say I've forgiven at this point. He's not done, and neither am I. It's hard to forgive something that is on repeat. I cycle between being angry, being numb, and being understanding that this is the effect of his pain and his past. I too have wondered do I want him back because of what I've been through, to validate the standing, to validate my worth and my ego, or do I want him?

AJ I agree with you about MIL. Give him an ultimatum about what? Doesn't really work in this situation. If I'm going to file, I'm going to file. If he's going to come back, it's going to be because he wants to, because he is making the changes to be the person I would want to be with. Even if it were possible for me to scare him into changing, I don't want that. If he doesn't want it, neither do I. MIL is very surprised that I haven't D him, that I have so much patience.

I feel bad for him about his parents disconnect from him. I feel like my parents would always be there for me, even if they think I'm wrong and messed up. But he doesn't have the family I do. Never has. He is closer to my family than his own.

Something came up today where he has to make a moving decision. He talked to me about it, wanting me to make the decision or at least give him advise. No way. I told him he needs to do what he feels good about. I have already told him a month ago if he does get his own place, I will take that as he wants to live a single life and I can't support that. I guess that's the next thing he has been thinking that will make him happy, cause nothing else has worked so far. Maybe he needs it for more independence, to grow up. Maybe he needs it to realize it won't make him happy. I just know I'm not going to be able to handle it and supporting paying for a place he would likely bring women back to. So I guess in a way there is already an ultimatum in play I feel good about.

[AJM]

I hear ya. Can I make a suggestion for future conversations? Have you ever wondered how, in casual conversation we suggest to people that success=happiness? Have you considered that happiness is not all it's cracked up to be? Watch the people's threads that have been at this a while. You'll notice they don't say they are happy without also saying they are joyful. Or they just skip to the joyful part. Know why? For me it's because happiness is fleeting. Joyfulness is something you can experience if you're happy or sad. It's a different and more meaningful emotion, no?

So the next time you decide to talk to husband, perhaps it would be a good idea to switch from

what he feels good about

to "what he feels he can live with and is the right thing to do."

It's subtle, but I think it makes a difference.

Just a thought.

AJ

[Raine]

Good thought AJ! I used that last night.

Last night was draining.
Had to talk about his move again. I said what you said, but also told him that he already knew my feelings on his own place. He hasn't wanted to divorce and he says the reason is he likes how things are between us. He doesn't want to lose that. I know he was looking for reassurance it would be the same. I said you sound like our friend who divorced. She thought her and her exh would be friends and they're not. He said but they never had the relationship we did.

I told him that's not what I wanted, ever. He wanted to know what I wanted. I said a relationship where he has overcome his stuff and willing to work on it. I told him what I wanted for me and for the kids. He at one point wanted to know what that would look like. He started talking like together separate rooms. I said no. I don't want a relationship where we are together for the kids. He is not comfortable with that. He said at one point he is gotten to the point he is comfortable initiating a hug but he imagines kissing me would be uncomfortable for both.

I asked him then if he planned to just be single and he said no that he knows he is the type that needs to be with someone.

He said again about me not getting over things and I said, "what, that you've had an affair, multiple affairs?" And he said, "i know you think I've been with all these women, but it's not that many. And yes i think we could work through that, but it's more than that."

So that's clearly out in the open now, but he is saying there are things worse than a couple of affairs. I don't know what that could be. I can't think of anything worse than that which I don't know about, like abandoning the family.

He said that I've outgrown him, I don't want him, too good for him. All that stuff again. I said, I know I deserve better than who you are right now. I said women like me don't go for men like you, who you are right now. I haven't been here for who you are right now.

I asked him what he wanted. He wants me to yell at him, get mad at him, etc so it's easier to end it.

I talked to him about the change in him and all the 180s he did. I told him this was not normal marriage problems. A guy with marriage problems gets a divorce. He doesn't drop his kids, family, church, friends and start doing everything against his nature.

Talked about issue in the past. This time it was about me being controlling. I validated and apologized. Talked to him about changes in me and what I want in a future relationship with someone, not necessarily him. I don't want to be controlling and making all the decisions. He said he felt he forced that on me sometimes.

I told him our old relationship is dead. He talked about not knowing what a future relationship could be. He was neutral about it. It would be different but not good or bad. It was clear he doesn't want a marriage relationship with me. I believe he sees it as too much work and too much pain. And the feelings are not there.

He feels that he has to please everyone. That everyone expects so much from him. Everyone wants his time. Doesn't feel he is doing right by me himself or anyone. I told him there are only five people he should be concerned about doing right by.

Issue of his past came up. Says he can never talk to anyone about it or he will implode. Says it is his fault, something he did. I said then give it to God. Says he is not ready to talk to me. I don't think he ever will be. He says it's not what he does.

I told him to get it fixed. To realize he is worth it. To do whatever it takes.

...

Long talk but I think I hit all the highlights. I feel like he needs to talk to me. I should know what I am standing for or divorcing over.

I do feel like the feelings for me are gone. I have a hard time seeing them coming back. I feel it's time to move on.

[kml]

Issue of his past came up. Says he can never talk to anyone about it or he will implode. Says it is his fault, something he did.

Hit and run? Rape? Stealing money from grandma? What does this mean???

Whatever it is - I'd just tell him, if he's going to be with other women, you need to move on and be free to date other men - which means initiating a divorce. End of story.

[Raine]

I'm with you Kml. I don't think me prolonging divorce is helping anyone at this point.